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Hello. My name is Al Montoya. I play for the Isles. Prepare to lose.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:00 AM
  #76
Zip15
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The only one with a strawman (or men) is yourself. Who is praising Goose or Gerbe's offensive production? I don't think anyone would disagree with the assertion they've been subpar offensively for awhile. What the hell does Weber have to do with any of this?
The bolded is actually a strawman, Josh. You're changing my argument. Nice try. I didn't say anyone's praising them. There's a difference between people praising them and them being almost completely immune from criticism. Where are the the threads wondering what happened to Gerbe's goal-scoring? Where are the threads inquiring whether Gerbe's second half was a mirage? Where are the threads requesting that Gaustad score more than the three goals he's on pace for this season--I'd argue that while he's not a goal-scorer, he's always been asked to score 10-15 goals to provide scoring depth.

Weber was another example of a guy who gets far more rope than the "finesse" players. If you play hard and are physical, you largely avoid blame on this board. Posters confuse effort and achievement.

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You were all wound up in the GDT because Stafford got bagged on. Ironically enough you defended Stafford by saying he is working hard and almost scoring. Then you go after posters for supposedly giving Goose and Gerbe a free pass in much the same way you are trying to do with Stafford.
I said Stafford was creating chances, which is more than what most of the other forwards were doing--and, besides Leino and Roy, going completely unblamed. Maybe it's better to be invisible than to be almost scoring.

And I'm not giving Stafford a free pass at all. He needs to be scoring. But he's creating more chances for himself and his linemates than a lot of other players.

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The guy that parlayed a 40 goal pace last year into a 4yr 16mil deal is getting 1-2mins more at ES than those two and gets PP ice time. He also plays consistantly with better offensive players (Gerbe does get some ice time with them as well, just not as much as Stafford). Gerbe and Goose are either tied with Stafford or not far behind production wise with less ES ice time and virtually no PP ice time. But you're worried about them not getting criticized enough for their lack of offense?
As I've stated all along, Stafford needs to start hitting the scoresheet more. I'd be a lot more worried if his line was creating chances. Leino-Roy-Stafford was our best line for a couple weeks. Leino-Boyes-Stafford was buzzing for awhile. They gotta finish. But they're doing good things in the offensive zone. Do you dispute this?

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You also have gone out for your way to throw some shots at "Teflon" Tom (his nickname for Vanek for those that don't know). Is it really that surprising a guy with a stat line like this 24gms 12g 14a 26pts is cut some slack from the fans when he struggles?
I treat Vanek like I treat every player on this team. He's praised when he deserves it. But he's also going to be called out when he makes poor play during a game, just like Roy, Leino, and Stafford are. If you don't like it, too bad.

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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Or your stat manipulations with Pommer. (1 goal in his last 5 games). He also has 2pts (1g 1a) in his last 2gms and 3pts (1g 2a) in his last 4gms and 4pts (2g 2a) in his last 6gms. To state the obvious, he has been doing well this year; 23gms 9g 16a 25pts.
Vanek-Pommer haven't been creating near the chances they should in recent games. Hence why people are blaming Hecht's presence on that line--it's always someone else's fault, after all. The team would be on a five-game losing streak but for a team actively trying to get its coach fired, and those two--among many others--haven't been good enough during this time.

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Vanek and Pommer get a pass because most of this year they've been making things happen. Stafford hasn't done **** this year to warrant getting slack from the fans.
Your obvious frustration with Stafford is evident by your tone. Stafford has been on a line that has been consistent with offensive zone pressure. Has it translated to goals yet? Nope. At the same time, his shooting% is incredibly low and will likely correct itself. He's getting shots and chances. If he continues, he'll score.

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Stafford, along with Leino, have been massive underachievers when it comes to producing offense and they've been that way ALL season. There is no other way to describe their lack of production. Clever though to try and frame things as if all our offensive players are dealing with the same issues. Or that Goose and Gerbe's struggles offensively are on the same level. They're not.
I like what Stafford or Leino have done in the offensive zone. Now, the extension of that is that they have to produce. I'm not hear defending Leino, because he's done a lot of things to hurt the team that Stafford hasn't. If Drew keeps playing this way and creating chances, I think the goals will start going in as his shot% starts correcting itself over time.

Please stop changing my arguments to fit yours. Thanks.

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Also, only one post about Enroth's comments?

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:33 AM
  #77
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Honestly I don't have a problem with a goalie calling out his team after a lackluster performance, seeing as its them hanging the goalie out to dry. Never really had a problem with miller doing it either. I just try and look from their eyes. The players in front of you show little effort to stop a guy and give him a chance that ends up making you look bad. Maybe it shows the team's overall lack of effort.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:39 AM
  #78
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Enroth's comments don't bother me. Is it not true that he didn't have any coverage in front? It is what it is.

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11-30-2011, 07:39 AM
  #79
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Hello. My name is Ville Leino. I play for the Sabres. You can sneeze me off the puck in the corner and wall.

P.S. I have no scoring ability whatsoever either.

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11-30-2011, 07:57 AM
  #80
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I love how Enroth saying it's unacceptable for a guy to be all alone 5 feet in front of the net is worrying and controversial...

...more so than the guy actually being all alone 5 feet in front of the net in a tied 3rd period game.

...

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11-30-2011, 08:24 AM
  #81
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While its obvious this team is underachieving, but here are some fact based numbers:

November 30th 2010 YTD:

GP: 25

W: 9

L:13

OTL: 3

P: 21

GF: 62

GA: 73

November 30th 2011 YTD:

GP: 24

W:13

L: 10

OTL:1

P: 27

GF: 68

GA: 63

Goals for are up, Goals against are down, points are up, winning record, etc..

There is improvement, just not where we want to see it considering the 2nd half urgency we saw last year and the playoff determination.

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11-30-2011, 08:29 AM
  #82
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Love Enroth's comment about the game winning goal. It was crap d-zone play again, simple, basic coverage where people don't have their man leading to a wide freaking open look.

Also of note -- 2 of the worst two teams by record in the whole league beat the Sabres by a 7-2 combined score in the last week. Even early last night, they were too cute. Pass-pass-openlookbutpassing-pass. And their passing isn't even that good -- their receptions are terrible and much of the time, they are dribbling things around weakly. Crash the net, ya bums. Lay it in with guys going hard to the net. Enough fancy. Get in amidst the trees for a change.

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11-30-2011, 08:45 AM
  #83
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- That five-on-three that never works. Apparently the plan is to stand perfectly still and play soft-toss with the puck until time runs out. Same people, same result.
It's incredible. They pass it around the perimeter on the 5-3 until they can get it into position to pass in front of the goal. It's like they are working as hard as they can to pass the puck through the area where the opposition has the best chance of taking it away. And when that doesn't work... they try it again.

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11-30-2011, 08:47 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
It's incredible. They pass it around the perimeter on the 5-3 until they can get it into position to pass in front of the goal. It's like they are working as hard as they can to pass the puck through the area where the opposition has the best chance of taking it away. And when that doesn't work... they try it again.
The 5-on-4 immediately before it was so much more dangerous and resulted in the additional penalty and there was nothing static about it. They moved. They rotated. The didn't just stand in the same spot and expect a different result. It's hockey insanity.

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11-30-2011, 08:53 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Love Enroth's comment about the game winning goal. It was crap d-zone play again, simple, basic coverage where people don't have their man leading to a wide freaking open look.

Also of note -- 2 of the worst two teams by record in the whole league beat the Sabres by a 7-2 combined score in the last week. Even early last night, they were too cute. Pass-pass-openlookbutpassing-pass. And their passing isn't even that good -- their receptions are terrible and much of the time, they are dribbling things around weakly. Crash the net, ya bums. Lay it in with guys going hard to the net. Enough fancy. Get in amidst the trees for a change.
I don't think it's a problem, either. What I think is a problem is all the ink that gets spilled when Miller says anything remotely resembling what Enroth said, and yet when Enroth says it he's applauded. When Miller says it, he's showing up his teammates, eschewing accountability, etc. It's hypocrisy. (I'm not referring to you individually, Chain, but I know you know what I'm talking about.)

As for your second paragraph, I agree. Too many players on this team wait for someone else to do something. It's beyond tiring at this point.

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11-30-2011, 09:04 AM
  #86
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I don't think it's a problem, either. What I think is a problem is all the ink that gets spilled when Miller says anything remotely resembling what Enroth said, and yet when Enroth says it he's applauded. When Miller says it, he's showing up his teammates, eschewing accountability, etc. It's hypocrisy. (I'm not referring to you individually, Chain, but I know you know what I'm talking about.)
This was my thought exactly, and the reason I posted the same thing you did.

If the same people criticized both goalies for saying something like this, I'd have no beef. But that doesn't happen.

Kinda proves to me that some people have personal agendas and aren't objectively thinking about things.

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11-30-2011, 09:07 AM
  #87
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I love how Enroth saying it's unacceptable for a guy to be all alone 5 feet in front of the net is worrying and controversial...

...more so than the guy actually being all alone 5 feet in front of the net in a tied 3rd period game.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Love Enroth's comment about the game winning goal. It was crap d-zone play again, simple, basic coverage where people don't have their man leading to a wide freaking open look.
Exactly. He dares to speak the truth? I'm OK with that.

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11-30-2011, 09:09 AM
  #88
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Exactly. He dares to speak the truth? I'm OK with that.
That's not our problem, Clock. See above. There'd be a three-page thread if Miller made the same comment.

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11-30-2011, 09:57 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Love Enroth's comment about the game winning goal. It was crap d-zone play again, simple, basic coverage where people don't have their man leading to a wide freaking open look.

Also of note -- 2 of the worst two teams by record in the whole league beat the Sabres by a 7-2 combined score in the last week. Even early last night, they were too cute. Pass-pass-openlookbutpassing-pass. And their passing isn't even that good -- their receptions are terrible and much of the time, they are dribbling things around weakly. Crash the net, ya bums. Lay it in with guys going hard to the net. Enough fancy. Get in amidst the trees for a change.
Agreed, horrible passes to start the game lead to several turnovers in the first two minutes.

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11-30-2011, 11:12 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Love Enroth's comment about the game winning goal. It was crap d-zone play again, simple, basic coverage where people don't have their man leading to a wide freaking open look.

Also of note -- 2 of the worst two teams by record in the whole league beat the Sabres by a 7-2 combined score in the last week. Even early last night, they were too cute. Pass-pass-openlookbutpassing-pass. And their passing isn't even that good -- their receptions are terrible and much of the time, they are dribbling things around weakly. Crash the net, ya bums. Lay it in with guys going hard to the net. Enough fancy. Get in amidst the trees for a change.
I agree with this. Especially during the PP the point men were passing up shots and trying to get too pretty. On one PP (I think the 5 on 3 even) our forward received a pass just below the left FO circle area and elected to try a an across the goal mouth pass to the right and it never made it through. He needed to take the shot with the intended recipient of the pass crashing the net instead.

We need to make crisper passes, especially when getting it back to 'hoff and he needs to just wind up and take the shot quick, no hesitation. Teams may be cheating toward him during the PP, so we need to adjust somehow. Make crisper passes that are in his wheelhouse so he can get them to the net before the forward can get back into 'hoffs lane or restructure the PP. But FFS less passing.

This is what I like from Adam. The guy was taking shots on net even from further out... and that's what he was known for doing when we drafted him.

To me this lack of shooting at times makes me feel like people are afraid of shooting ? I don't know what the heck is going on but why would you pass up a shot if can you can get it on net cleanly ? Trying to be too pretty... never understoood that clowning around, esp when it's low scoring and you're behind or tied... just get the puck on net. If you play around and try to setup for the perfect shot.... that can be a long time coming... and even then, the perfect shot is no guarantee...

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11-30-2011, 11:54 AM
  #91
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That 5-3 had me screaming at the tv which know that I think about it hasn't been out of the norm lately.

They better get it going consistently soon..

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11-30-2011, 12:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by ShadowOni View Post
I agree with this. Especially during the PP the point men were passing up shots and trying to get too pretty. On one PP (I think the 5 on 3 even) our forward received a pass just below the left FO circle area and elected to try a an across the goal mouth pass to the right and it never made it through. He needed to take the shot with the intended recipient of the pass crashing the net instead.

We need to make crisper passes, especially when getting it back to 'hoff and he needs to just wind up and take the shot quick, no hesitation. Teams may be cheating toward him during the PP, so we need to adjust somehow. Make crisper passes that are in his wheelhouse so he can get them to the net before the forward can get back into 'hoffs lane or restructure the PP. But FFS less passing.

This is what I like from Adam. The guy was taking shots on net even from further out... and that's what he was known for doing when we drafted him.

To me this lack of shooting at times makes me feel like people are afraid of shooting ? I don't know what the heck is going on but why would you pass up a shot if can you can get it on net cleanly ? Trying to be too pretty... never understoood that clowning around, esp when it's low scoring and you're behind or tied... just get the puck on net. If you play around and try to setup for the perfect shot.... that can be a long time coming... and even then, the perfect shot is no guarantee...
Being too fine seems endemic of this team when they're not playing well. Rather than just throwing it on net and crashing, they seem to try for yawning cages and simple tap ins. Heck, even the lousy pass from MAG to Leino past Montoya should have been a shot -- Al was flailing and there was a lot of net to shoot at there. Instead, Leino waives at a bad pass in an excellent scoring position.


-------------------------------------------------------

Regehr had a rough night -- the minus two was indicative of some struggles he had. I don't know what his injury is, but he had a rough time clearing the zone cleanly and on at least two occassions missed the easy outlet simply to throw it up the wall.

Both teams hit more than one piece of metal -- a hair either way and this could have been a blowout for the Isles or a win for the Sabres. For a team with 2/3rds of a roster, they're going to have to find a way.

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11-30-2011, 12:10 PM
  #93
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The Sabres fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never get Marc Andre Gragnani involved when the game is on the line!
So whose fault is it getting M A G involved when the game was on the line?

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11-30-2011, 12:19 PM
  #94
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That's not our problem, Clock. See above. There'd be a three-page thread if Miller made the same comment.
Eh, fans are going to generate dramz where this is little or none regardless. If we're talking about real-world, do-I-think-this-is-a-bad-thing, I don't.

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11-30-2011, 12:22 PM
  #95
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So whose fault is it getting M A G involved when the game was on the line?
A Sicilian

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11-30-2011, 12:35 PM
  #96
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A Sicilian
Come again?

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11-30-2011, 12:54 PM
  #97
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Miller calling out the team ("playing like scared little kids") had weight in 09/10 when he was its best player and fans supported Ryan when he took shots at the rest of the guys, especially the Rochester core.

He then had some rough games in the Boston series, struggled through last season (even got called out by Lindy, which never would've happened the season prior) and had an up and down performance against Philly. When Ryan goes back to goaltending at a high level, I'm sure fans will be significantly more responsive to the things he has to say.

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11-30-2011, 01:11 PM
  #98
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Come again?
"Princess Bride" reference, I think.

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11-30-2011, 01:25 PM
  #99
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-I thought both goalies were incredible, Montoya edging out Enroth.
-McNabb was a physical force, didn't know that.
-Leino is horrible
-Gragnani too
-Vanek was very good IMO
-5 on 3 wasn't too bad, the wingers along the boards needed to crash the net after the shots but didn't which is sad since Ehrhoff was pumping them right through.

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11-30-2011, 02:41 PM
  #100
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"Princess Bride" reference, I think.
Just continuing the references

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