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Old
11-30-2011, 12:30 AM
  #26
KIRK
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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Kennedy has never had a 30 goal season, and Bennett isn't a top-line potential 50pt rookie season, 70-80 point potential forward. And while a 1st might not seem as valuable to Pittsburgh now, since they're in a "win now" mode, first round picks are exactly what a team like the Penguins need.

With Crosby and Malkin making $19M/yr combined, plus Neal around $4.5-$5M next season, Fleury $5M/yr, Paul Martin $5M/r and Michalek $4M/yr. That's $38 million of cap invested in 6 players. Kunitz, Letang, and Orpik are around another $11M. That's $49M in 9 players. So 11 players would need to be added to the roster with about $16M left. Let's say the cap goes up $4M again, so $20M left to add 11 players. That's nice. You can average almost $2M per player. But then add Staal's new contract the next season into the equation. That, if he's as good as we're all assuming here (Mikko Koivu type contract seems acceptable), that's another $6M onto the cap. So now you're down to $14M for 10 players. Now, most of the key positions are taken care of, but another top-6 forward would need to be added to that, along with a couple defensemen. And bottom six players. You'll have some players on limited contracts that will take up very little cap-space, but it will get tight.

What I'm trying to say, in a long winded fashion I admit, is that draft picks are what make things like this work. If you have that much invested in top-end talent, it's not necessarily a bad thing, it means you have star players. And those are necessary to win championships. But 1st round draft picks are key in getting players who can come in and play, and play well, on their ELC's and help out a teams salary cap situation. Those players are the guys that are picked that when Letang goes down in the playoffs, some rookie 1st rounder who was called up mid-season and stuck on the bottom-pairing but is showing a lot of promise, can step his game up and help the team mitigate the loss of a star player, and help to take over for turnover that will occur as the years go on.
Do Stafford and Ennis make the Penguins better than Staal does right now? Really, that's the only question Shero will ask himself with respect to an offer like this, and I think the answer is no. It will be easier for him simply to shop for a top six forward later this year, either an impending UFA or even a guy under contract or impending RFA a la Neal. He's got the pieces to land a guy like that for a team looking for a lesser young winger (Kennedy) and a higher end prospect (Bennett).

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:31 AM
  #27
Jules Winnfield
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Kennedy has never had a 30 goal season, and Bennett isn't a top-line potential 50pt rookie season, 70-80 point potential forward. And while a 1st might not seem as valuable to Pittsburgh now, since they're in a "win now" mode, first round picks are exactly what a team like the Penguins need.

With Crosby and Malkin making $19M/yr combined, plus Neal around $4.5-$5M next season, Fleury $5M/yr, Paul Martin $5M/r and Michalek $4M/yr. That's $38 million of cap invested in 6 players. Kunitz, Letang, and Orpik are around another $11M. That's $49M in 9 players. So 11 players would need to be added to the roster with about $16M left. Let's say the cap goes up $4M again, so $20M left to add 11 players. That's nice. You can average almost $2M per player. But then add Staal's new contract the next season into the equation. That, if he's as good as we're all assuming here (Mikko Koivu type contract seems acceptable), that's another $6M onto the cap. So now you're down to $14M for 10 players. Now, most of the key positions are taken care of, but another top-6 forward would need to be added to that, along with a couple defensemen. And bottom six players. You'll have some players on limited contracts that will take up very little cap-space, but it will get tight.

What I'm trying to say, in a long winded fashion I admit, is that draft picks are what make things like this work. If you have that much invested in top-end talent, it's not necessarily a bad thing, it means you have star players. And those are necessary to win championships. But 1st round draft picks are key in getting players who can come in and play, and play well, on their ELC's and help out a teams salary cap situation. Those players are the guys that are picked that when Letang goes down in the playoffs, some rookie 1st rounder who was called up mid-season and stuck on the bottom-pairing but is showing a lot of promise, can step his game up and help the team mitigate the loss of a star player, and help to take over for turnover that will occur as the years go on.
Save your long winded analysis on why this works in your mind. Long story short, Paul Martin will be dealt long before Jordan Staal will in order to save cap space if need be. The Pens have Despres and Morrow cracking at the top 4 sooner than later making Martin expendable.

Also, not sure what your gripe is about the potential value package I put together as a "value" example. It's essentially a 20+ goal scorer and 3 #1 picks.

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11-30-2011, 12:35 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Save your long winded analysis on why this works in your mind. Long story short, Paul Martin will be dealt long before Jordan Staal will in order to save cap space if need be. The Pens have Despres and Morrow cracking at the top 4 sooner than later making Martin expendable.

Also, not sure what your gripe is about the potential value package I put together as a "value" example. It's essentially a 20+ goal scorer and 3 #1 picks.
This intro is a little harsh, but this is the part all of the fans of other teams trying to help the Pens with their cap problems vis-a-vis Staal fail to notice.

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11-30-2011, 12:48 AM
  #29
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11-30-2011, 01:13 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Kennedy has never had a 30 goal season, and Bennett isn't a top-line potential 50pt rookie season, 70-80 point potential forward. And while a 1st might not seem as valuable to Pittsburgh now, since they're in a "win now" mode, first round picks are exactly what a team like the Penguins need.

With Crosby and Malkin making $19M/yr combined, plus Neal around $4.5-$5M next season, Fleury $5M/yr, Paul Martin $5M/r and Michalek $4M/yr. That's $38 million of cap invested in 6 players. Kunitz, Letang, and Orpik are around another $11M. That's $49M in 9 players. So 11 players would need to be added to the roster with about $16M left. Let's say the cap goes up $4M again, so $20M left to add 11 players. That's nice. You can average almost $2M per player. But then add Staal's new contract the next season into the equation. That, if he's as good as we're all assuming here (Mikko Koivu type contract seems acceptable), that's another $6M onto the cap. So now you're down to $14M for 10 players. Now, most of the key positions are taken care of, but another top-6 forward would need to be added to that, along with a couple defensemen. And bottom six players. You'll have some players on limited contracts that will take up very little cap-space, but it will get tight.

What I'm trying to say, in a long winded fashion I admit, is that draft picks are what make things like this work. If you have that much invested in top-end talent, it's not necessarily a bad thing, it means you have star players. And those are necessary to win championships. But 1st round draft picks are key in getting players who can come in and play, and play well, on their ELC's and help out a teams salary cap situation. Those players are the guys that are picked that when Letang goes down in the playoffs, some rookie 1st rounder who was called up mid-season and stuck on the bottom-pairing but is showing a lot of promise, can step his game up and help the team mitigate the loss of a star player, and help to take over for turnover that will occur as the years go on.
They're making $17.4 million/yr combined.

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Old
11-30-2011, 01:15 AM
  #31
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NVM. I'm an idiot with too many tabs open.

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11-30-2011, 09:21 PM
  #32
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Ok, so what about Vanek for Staal. Maybe throw in a prospect or pick from Pittsburgh (yes, Staal is emerging, but how long will that level of play be sustained, whereas Vanek is a consistent player, and in the 'Burgh should be good for 45-40-85, at least)

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11-30-2011, 09:26 PM
  #33
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Double post, sorry.

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11-30-2011, 09:36 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Ok, so what about Vanek for Staal. Maybe throw in a prospect or pick from Pittsburgh (yes, Staal is emerging, but how long will that level of play be sustained, whereas Vanek is a consistent player, and in the 'Burgh should be good for 45-40-85, at least)
No cap space for a 7 million dollar winger.

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11-30-2011, 09:42 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Ok, so what about Vanek for Staal. Maybe throw in a prospect or pick from Pittsburgh (yes, Staal is emerging, but how long will that level of play be sustained, whereas Vanek is a consistent player, and in the 'Burgh should be good for 45-40-85, at least)
I would still say no. The hole created by trading Staal would be greater than the tangibles Vanek would bring would.

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:22 PM
  #36
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i think kennedy is gonna get traded and maybe a prospect like tangradi for a top 6 winger. staals not going anywhere cuz we need him to win the cup next spring. it would take a huge overpayment by some idiotic gm for shero to pull the trigger. and even then, it has to help our team this year, not three two or three years from now

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11-30-2011, 11:31 PM
  #37
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I would maybe do something around

Kennedy + Tangradi

for

Doan

High price for a rental but...man what a pick up that would be!

What about Bobby Ryan...what might we be able to offer?

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Old
12-01-2011, 10:30 AM
  #38
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Not the worst proposal I've ever seen on these boards, but no. Now that Staal is using the correct length stick, he will break scoring records. But seriously, his game is finally starting to evolve to where we expected it to be, giving us the strongest lineup down the middle we've ever had. Gives the coaches too many options for causing matchup problems, and the centerpiece of that deal (Drew Stafford) is not enough.

Stafford and Ennis both have good potential but my opinion of them so far is that they're very inconsistent. Seems to be a thing with Buffalo, whether you're talking about Vanek or Roy or whoever. They never have a guy who is always a go-to guy, and that's the type of player that would be required in a trade like this. Seems like he's been around forever but Staal continues to develop / is still young (23 I think) so there's not much upside in this trade for us.

As noted the D and 1st rounder wouldn't do us much good given the makeup of our blueline and system (unless your team tanked and finished a lot lower than I think they will).

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12-01-2011, 10:38 AM
  #39
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I really like Ennis, but Staal isn't going anywhere.

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Old
12-01-2011, 11:27 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
I would maybe do something around

Kennedy + Tangradi

for

Doan

High price for a rental but...man what a pick up that would be!

What about Bobby Ryan...what might we be able to offer?
We should be trading picks and/or prospects only. Not established players & certainly not ones whom are 20 goal wingers. We need defense before we need another winger anyways.

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