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Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Defensemen)

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Old
12-01-2011, 10:28 PM
  #76
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Trying to provide balance and context. Pre injuries. Savard showed that he could play at a level comparable to Bobby Orr. No other defenseman in this round was at such a level.

Pre and post injury Serge Savard showed that he could play the game at the international level on the standard NHL rink and on the Olympic sized rinks in Europe.
Few of the defensemen under consideration this round were able to do likewise.

Importance to the team. 1970 - Serge Savard`s first major leg injury was followed by the Canadiens missing the playoffs.
Leetch's defense in his dominant Conn Smythe run was considered better than Orr's by some and other guys in this round have high peaks, especially in the playoffs like Pronger, MacInnis, Stevens and Horton.

Savard unfortunately had his career shortened/altered by injuries and I think some of his ranking here already is based on projections of what he might have done if healthy. A round or two too early for me.

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12-01-2011, 10:45 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
My definition of an elite player is being a legit contender for the norris, not finishing 6-9th in voting.
Here is Leetch's Norris ranking as listed in TDMM post above

1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 11th, 11th

Also one would need to go back and look directly at all placements and the level of Dmen they competed with as all of Leetch's years came in a post US college and European talent era.

So an 11th could be comparable to a higher ranking, depending on the year, from selected 06 years or earlier.

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12-01-2011, 11:04 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Norris Trophy Records

As always, remember that Norris voting doesn't take into account playoffs, and that competition needs to be kept in mind.

Also keep in mind that finishes lower than 5th or 6th place are often with only a handful of votes (I omitted seasons where the player only got 1 vote). And post-expansion, Norris voting is probably overly affected by offense.

There years in paratheses are the years during which the player received Norris consideration. I bolded top 5 finishes.

Bill Gadsby (53-54 to 65-66): 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 11th (plus one 4th place finish in AS voting pre-Norris)
Tim Horton (53-54 to 72-73): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 9th, 12th
Serge Savard (72-73 to 78-79): 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th
Borje Salming (73-74 to 81-82): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 10th, 14th
Scott Stevens (84-85 to 00-01): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 10th
Al MacInnis (86-87 to 02-03): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 8th
Brian Leetch (88-89 to 03-04): 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 11th, 11th
Chris Pronger (97-98 to 09-10): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th

Seibert and Clapper both played before the Norris and Vasiliev didn't play in the NHL.
Just for fun, (and I know this ignores playoffs, competition faced and degrees of difference that may have existed from 1st to 2nd in some years), here's an attempt to assign "point values" to these Norris finishes to try to make some sense of them, because when they are all lined up like this, they all look about the same, aside from Savard.

using just top-6: 6th= 5 pts, 5th=6 pts... 1st=10 pts

Horton: 71
Gadsby: 68 (this includes the pre-norris 4th)
MacInnis: 58
Stavens: 57
Salming: 54
Pronger: 53
Leetch: 47
Savard: 30

I feel like Savard stands out as the least impressive, even if the voting underrated him, and Horton stands out as the most. In between them, Leetch probably is far enough behind to call the 2nd least-impressive (especially when you consider that his offense probably earned him a few more votes than his overall game warranted), and Gadsby 2nd-most, whereas the rest can't really be declared anything other than "pretty close".

Applying the same standard to Seibert and Clapper (using all-star voting, obviously) yields this:

Clapper: 47
Seibert: 87

Are Seibert's voting results perfectly comparable to the above players? Maybe not. Is the competition/era difference enough to outweigh that his voting record of 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th (the last was a tie for 4th) is clearly the best in this round? Up to you guys.


Last edited by seventieslord: 12-01-2011 at 11:25 PM.
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Old
12-01-2011, 11:04 PM
  #79
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Gadsby is really tough to call. his offense is nice, his physicality well-documented, and his overall game seems validated by the all-star/norris voting. BUT, for 7 of 8 straight seasons the Hawks were the worst defensive team in the game, often by huge margins, and he was the guy on the ice most often for them. In his 7 seasons as a Ranger, the team ranked 5th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 5th in goals against, meaning that in 14 seasons, he anchored a defense in the top 2/3 of the league just once.

In his 5 years with the Wings, their defense ranked 5th, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 4th, though the numbers were rarely abysmal and were close to average.

Both times Gadsby switched teams, his old team allowed fewer goals and his new team allowed more:

CHI: 242 -> 235
NYR: 182 -> 210

NYR: 248 -> 207
DET: 215 -> 219

To Gadsby's credit: He missed most of the 1951 season. The team's GA went from 244 with him, to 280 mostly without him, to 241 with him again.

BraveCanadian, what was that you said about questioning the defensive play of original 6ers?

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12-01-2011, 11:06 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Not clear at all. The 53-54 Blackhawks as a team were terrible both offensively & defensively. One of the worst teams ever. Note the emphasis on the word team. Probably the only 2 quality players they had were Gadsby and Rollins Their leading point getter was larry Wilson(9-33-42). Their leading goal scorer was Pete Conacher with 19. Both guys were soon out of the NHL and were career AHLers. Look at their lineup in the link below. A few over the hill guys, a few others who would eventually be decent but were not ready yet & a bunch of no names. Lucky that Gadsby was able to add to the offense as he finished second in points. Was he good at defense too. Maybe he was but didn't get much help.

Not sure what you are driving at here. You seem on a mission to tear Gadsby down but are not being very convincing.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CBH/1954.html
I personally think that TDMM makes some good counterpoints to the often trotted out Norris voting line or the if Kelly and Harvey suggestions that are hinted at here.

Not to stir the pot but your tiers this section are weighed very heavily on past players without much of explanation IMO and if it's the consistency argument that's fine but I sure hope that you are realizing that not all NHL seasons are as easy to excel in, due to competition at the specific position, and the nature of the league as a whole. (larger and more talent streams)

Gasby at the end of the day looks likes a lesser version of Brad Park (overall) with a very weak playoff resume that may have been out of his control somewhat but I sure hope people treat Dionne consistently as they treat Gasby here.

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12-01-2011, 11:18 PM
  #81
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LOL, I should have read the last page before I went ahead with that. Hopefully I added to the discussion somewhat.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bill Gadsby isn't the only one who should get what-if credit based on competition.

Scott Stevens was 2nd to Ray Bourque for the Norris twice - 1988 and 1994. He was 3rd for the Norris behind Nicklas Lidstrom and Raymond Bourque in 2001.

Al MacInnis was also 2nd to Raymond Bourque twice - 1990 and 1991. He won the Norris in 1999 and was 2nd to Nicklas Lidstrom in 2003.

And that's without getting into Chelios and Coffey.
Anyone care to put together norris voting records for the 10 NHL players in this round, with all the already voted-in players removed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
(To put it in fantasy terms, If Seibert is a 7 offensively and 9 defensively, maybe Gadsby is a 9 offensively and 6 defensively).
that makes sense, except defense should be weighted more heavily, too.

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12-01-2011, 11:24 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I voted Stevens 6th last round. 4 voters had him higher than me and 2 had him just as high.

Why do you have Leetch over Seibert?
I have Leetch over Seibert for 3 main reasons

1) a much higher peak as his Norris voting indicates

2) His incredible Conn Smythe year and playoffs individually.

3) I think his non peak years are taking a bigger hit or being viewed more negatively than say a guy like Gadsby.

Gadbsy played on some bad teams but the Rangers weren't exactly great at the end of Leetch's time there.

His age 30-37 seasons he is playing 29,26,29,25,26,26 and 23 minutes a game (numbers rounded down to the nearest whole number) and was still good enough to play for the US internationally.

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12-01-2011, 11:37 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Just for fun, (and I know this ignores playoffs, competition faced and degrees of difference that may have existed from 1st to 2nd in some years), here's an attempt to assign "point values" to these Norris finishes to try to make some sense of them, because when they are all lined up like this, they all look about the same, aside from Savard.

using just top-6: 6th= 5 pts, 5th=6 pts... 1st=10 pts

Horton: 71
Gadsby: 68 (this includes the pre-norris 4th)
MacInnis: 58
Stavens: 57
Salming: 54
Pronger: 53
Leetch: 47
Savard: 30

I feel like Savard stands out as the least impressive, even if the voting underrated him, and Horton stands out as the most. In between them, Leetch probably is far enough behind to call the 2nd least-impressive (especially when you consider that his offense probably earned him a few more votes than his overall game warranted), and Gadsby 2nd-most, whereas the rest can't really be declared anything other than "pretty close".

Applying the same standard to Seibert and Clapper (using all-star voting, obviously) yields this:

Clapper: 47
Seibert: 87

Are Seibert's voting results perfectly comparable to the above players? Maybe not. Is the competition/era difference enough to outweigh that his voting record of 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th (the last was a tie for 4th) is clearly the best in this round? Up to you guys.

I know that the list was just for fun and you did address the bold part but it's more than just the difference from 1-2 the overall field of the top5,10 is pretty important as well.

Also a 4-10 finish in a 6 team league puts a guy in a much different tier or % level than say a 4-10 finish in a 30 team league.

The differences are not a direct ratio but they are quite different aren't they?


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12-01-2011, 11:42 PM
  #84
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Why not? I suggested it so I'll do it.

Norris records (or all-star for pre-54 players), top-5 or better, with already voted-in players removed:

Seibert: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th (92)
Stevens: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th (90)
Horton: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th (86)
Gadsby: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th (80)
MacInnis: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th (73)
Salming: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (67)
Leetch: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd (64)
Pronger: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th (59)
Savard: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th (46)
Clapper: 1st, 1st, 1st, 4th, 5th (43)

This is probably more of an apples-to-apples comparison than raw records.

interesting that Pronger still has just the one Norris win; he was never behind only top-15 defensemen. I was really surprised at Salming and MacInnis' five potential wins apiece. Seibert still doesn't shine here thanks to peak - he shines due to longevity. And unsurprisingly, Savard has no potential wins even with Orr, Potvin, Park and Robinson removed.


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12-01-2011, 11:45 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Also a 4-10 finish in a 6 team league puts a guy in a much different tier or % level than say a 4-10 finish in a 30 team league.
But how much different? Different enough? Not necessarily. 4th back in the O6 days, might only be as good as 4th-6th now. Not 10th-20th as you sometimes hint at. Who's to say for sure?

I think those era and talent pool differences really matter when it comes time to judge players the caliber of which we won't be judging in this project.

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12-01-2011, 11:48 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Anyone care to put together norris voting records for the 10 NHL players in this round, with all the already voted-in players removed?
This is something I'd like to do, hopefully I have the time but at 1st blush it would give Gadsby 3 Norris wins with an even weaker field than Polite had and I'm not sure how much that would accomplish on it's own. It would be another discussion point to be sure.

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12-01-2011, 11:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why not? I suggested it so I'll do it.

Norris records (or all-star for pre-54 players), top-5 or better, with already voted-in players removed:

Seibert: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th (92)
Stevens: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th (90)
Horton: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th (86)
Gadsby: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th (80)
MacInnis: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th (73)
Salming: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (67)
Leetch: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd (64)
Pronger: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th (59)
Savard: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th (46)
Clapper: 1st, 1st, 1st, 4th, 5th (43)

This is probably more of an apples-to-apples comparison than raw records.

interesting that Pronger still has just the one Norris win; he was never behind only top-15 defensemen. I was really surprised at Salming and Stevens' five potential wins apiece. Seibert still doesn't shine here thanks to peak - he shines due to longevity. And unsurprisingly, Savard has no potential wins even with Orr, Potvin, Park and Robinson removed.
I was also surprised to see this, but I think you mean MacInnis, not Stevens



EDIT: Did you keep a record of how many times each player was taken out? That would be nice to see next to the records (i.e. Harvey-6 Kelly-3 or Bourque-5, Chelios-3, Coffey-2)

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12-01-2011, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I was also surprised to see this, but I think you mean MacInnis, not Stevens



EDIT: Did you keep a record of how many times each player was taken out? That would be nice to see next to the records (i.e. Harvey-6 Kelly-3 or Bourque-5, Chelios-3, Coffey-2)
thank you, you're right, I fixed that. And no, sorry, I didn't.

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12-02-2011, 12:23 AM
  #89
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But how much different? Different enough? Not necessarily. 4th back in the O6 days, might only be as good as 4th-6th now. Not 10th-20th as you sometimes hint at. Who's to say for sure?

I think those era and talent pool differences really matter when it comes time to judge players the caliber of which we won't be judging in this project.
It would really depend on a year by year evaluation accounting for all top 5 guys (or more like 10 perhaps in a 30 team league) and then also accounting for any obvious guys missing like Kelly when he played forward fro part of a season and Leetch and Potvin and MacInnis when they missed large parts of seasons.

Just for example there are 2 different ways to look 6th place finish in a 6 and a 30 team league.

For both the 1st is obvious they were both voted the 6th best by the voters.

In a 6 team league with each team having the same potential, in terms of minutes and PP time on average, a 6th place finish would put that player on the end of the 1st tier (of 5 tiers by 6 teams)

In a 30 team league a 6th place finish would put that player at the top 20% of the 1st tier (6th of 30th). Obviously this player would ahve been better than many below average or average Dmen but would have been better than 24 of 30 #1 Dman on their teams as well.

this wouldn't ahve as much meaning if not for the fact that the player base is not 100% Canadian like it was in 06 times. Also there are many more Canadian Jr A teams developing players than in 06 days as well.

There is no definitive ratio or magic number by to me it's obvious that in most cases a 6th in a 6 team league is vastly different than a 6th in a 30 team league but maybe that's just me.

The lists so far give us a base or starting point to be sure but to get a more complete picture more information and analysis is needed IMO and I'm sure many agree here on this point.

I had hoped to have the time to do a year by year analysis of Norris voting but as of yet I haven't had the time and also I'm not the most organized guy in the world either.

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12-02-2011, 12:31 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Just for fun, (and I know this ignores playoffs, competition faced and degrees of difference that may have existed from 1st to 2nd in some years), here's an attempt to assign "point values" to these Norris finishes to try to make some sense of them, because when they are all lined up like this, they all look about the same, aside from Savard.

using just top-6: 6th= 5 pts, 5th=6 pts... 1st=10 pts

Horton: 71
Gadsby: 68 (this includes the pre-norris 4th)
MacInnis: 58
Stavens: 57
Salming: 54
Pronger: 53
Leetch: 47
Savard: 30

I feel like Savard stands out as the least impressive, even if the voting underrated him, and Horton stands out as the most. In between them, Leetch probably is far enough behind to call the 2nd least-impressive (especially when you consider that his offense probably earned him a few more votes than his overall game warranted), and Gadsby 2nd-most, whereas the rest can't really be declared anything other than "pretty close".

Applying the same standard to Seibert and Clapper (using all-star voting, obviously) yields this:

Clapper: 47
Seibert: 87

Are Seibert's voting results perfectly comparable to the above players? Maybe not. Is the competition/era difference enough to outweigh that his voting record of 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th (the last was a tie for 4th) is clearly the best in this round? Up to you guys.

Given

1) the increased depth from Europeans and Americans in modern times (who didn't exist in O6 hockey), and

2) the increased chance in modern times for someone like Kevin Hatcher or Al Iafrate to have a career season and finish 4th-6th in Norris voting due to the fact that there were more opportunities to get top minutes at even strength and on the PP with many more teams,

I don't see Tim Horton and Bill Gadsby as having better records than MacInnis, Stevens, or Pronger at all. But that's a judgment call.

Anyway, interesting analysis. I like that you didn't include 7th place finishes and below for a ranking like this. I see low finishes like that as evidence of a very good season, but see little to no difference between (for example) finishing 7th with 5 points and finishing 8th with 4 points.

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
In a 30 team league a 6th place finish would put that player at the top 20% of the 1st tier (6th of 30th). Obviously this player would ahve been better than many below average or average Dmen but would have been better than 24 of 30 #1 Dman on their teams as well.
The problem with this way of thinking is that you assume that all players in the larger league are competing for the awards and that simply isn't true. You can add 200 Hal Gills to the current NHL, and not one of them is ever going to win a Norris. Above I outlined why I think that comparing O6 Norris records with modern ones aren't apples to apples: There is indeed more competition from Europeans and Americans. And there is more opportunity with more teams for gusy to have career years and sneak into Norris consideration. But IMO, this affects lower finishes (like 4th-6th on down) more than the really high finishes. It's not like Al Iafrate or Kevin Hatcher came close to winning the Norris in his career year. And it's not like Duncan Keith wouldn't have gotten top ice time in a six team league to have his chance at a Norris.


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12-02-2011, 12:34 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gadsby is really tough to call. his offense is nice, his physicality well-documented, and his overall game seems validated by the all-star/norris voting. BUT, for 7 of 8 straight seasons the Hawks were the worst defensive team in the game, often by huge margins, and he was the guy on the ice most often for them. In his 7 seasons as a Ranger, the team ranked 5th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 5th in goals against, meaning that in 14 seasons, he anchored a defense in the top 2/3 of the league just once.

In his 5 years with the Wings, their defense ranked 5th, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 4th, though the numbers were rarely abysmal and were close to average.

Both times Gadsby switched teams, his old team allowed fewer goals and his new team allowed more:

CHI: 242 -> 235
NYR: 182 -> 210

NYR: 248 -> 207
DET: 215 -> 219

To Gadsby's credit: He missed most of the 1951 season. The team's GA went from 244 with him, to 280 mostly without him, to 241 with him again.

BraveCanadian, what was that you said about questioning the defensive play of original 6ers?
Does the all-star voting really validate Gadsby's overall game? The man was FAR better offensively than any of the other top defensemen of the day other than Harvey (and Kelly when Kelly was still elite), so it is very conceivable that he could get those All Star nods based on offense and physicality alone.

Could Gadsby be similar to Leetch in later years as a guy who was simply just asked to do too much by poorly constructed teams?

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12-02-2011, 12:49 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why not? I suggested it so I'll do it.

Norris records (or all-star for pre-54 players), top-5 or better, with already voted-in players removed:

Seibert: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th (92)
Stevens: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th (90)
Horton: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th (86)
Gadsby: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th (80)
MacInnis: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th (73)
Salming: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (67)
Leetch: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd (64)
Pronger: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th (59)
Savard: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th (46)
Clapper: 1st, 1st, 1st, 4th, 5th (43)

This is probably more of an apples-to-apples comparison than raw records.

interesting that Pronger still has just the one Norris win; he was never behind only top-15 defensemen. I was really surprised at Salming and MacInnis' five potential wins apiece. Seibert still doesn't shine here thanks to peak - he shines due to longevity. And unsurprisingly, Savard has no potential wins even with Orr, Potvin, Park and Robinson removed.
Well done. The contrast between this and the previous list really drives home the insane competition that Stevens, MacInnis, and Leetch faced. IMO, the 1987-97 period had the deepest pool of elite talent at D ever - it was a great generation of Canadian defensemen and by far the best generation of American defensemen ever produced.

Harvey/Kelly might have been the best duo who peaked at the same time ever, but there seems to have been a drop to Gadsby then another big drop to the pack. The late 70s were insane at the top (Potvin, Robinson, sometimes Park, Salming, Savard, Lapointe), but I feel there was a much larger seperation from the elite to the pack than in the 87-97 period.

Salming's numbers are probably a little higher than they should be, as Valeri Vasiliev very well could have beaten him out multiple times were he in the NHL.

Edit: Of course, there's definitely some circular reasonsing here. "We're ranking these guys higher because of the competition they faced." "How do you know the competition was better?" "Because we ranked the competition even higher already."

Double edit: But if you like who we have in the top 15, this method is sound. If you don't, it's utility is limited.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-02-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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12-02-2011, 12:52 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I have Leetch over Seibert for 3 main reasons

1) a much higher peak as his Norris voting indicates
I think Leetch probably peaked a bit higher, but I don't see how it was "much higher."

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2) His incredible Conn Smythe year and playoffs individually.
Was Leetch's 1994 playoffs better than Seibert's 1938?

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3) I think his non peak years are taking a bigger hit or being viewed more negatively than say a guy like Gadsby.
Whose non-peak years? Seibert's peak might not have been quite as high as some, but it basically lasted for his whole career.

If you mean Leetch vs. Gadsby (edit: and reading it again, I think you do), I know others will disagree, but I do have them close.

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12-02-2011, 12:58 AM
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Does the all-star voting really validate Gadsby's overall game? The man was FAR better offensively than any of the other top defensemen of the day other than Harvey (and Kelly when Kelly was still elite), so it is very conceivable that he could get those All Star nods based on offense and physicality alone.
Well yeah, that's kinda what I mean. Maybe he was suspect defensively. But maybe with that considered he was truly the 2nd/3rd best overall defenseman in the game that many times.

Basically - do we rake him over the coals for his awful defensive results - or do we accept that this was accounted for when it came time to vote for the norris?

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12-02-2011, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Well yeah, that's kinda what I mean. Maybe he was suspect defensively. But maybe with that considered he was truly the 2nd/3rd best overall defenseman in the game that many times.

Basically - do we rake him over the coals for his awful defensive results - or do we accept that this was accounted for when it came time to vote for the norris?
Good question.

At the very least, we shouldn't give Gadsby double points for his offense - we should not give him credit for an All Star record that is probably more based off his offense than defense - then give him bonus points for being as good as Harvey offensively.

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12-02-2011, 01:48 AM
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These are comparisons that I would like to see made that I would prefer not to do the work for. Both involve contemporaries who are nonetheless hard to compare:

Seibert vs. Clapper - Seibert was an elite defenseman for much longer than Clapper; Clapper was a productive player for much longer (split almost 50/50 between forward and D though his greatest accomplishements were at D). Did Clapper peak higher? Clapper was extremely highly thought of at the time he retired, but how much credit should he be given on a list of defensemen?

Salming vs. Vasiliev - the two Europeans this round peaked at exactly the same time (late 70s). I'll have some things to say about Vasiliev that I will hopefully get to tomorrow, but I don't even know how to begin comparing him to Salming (and Salming is probably the easiest guy this round to compare him to!)


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12-02-2011, 03:58 AM
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It has been commented on Börje Salming's decline. I think much of it is due to the amount of injuries he picked up over the years. He got a stick in his eye during the 1978 playoffs in a game against the Isles which nearly blinded him, it ended up reduced his sight on his right eye by 50%. I found a curious list of all Salming's injuries during his professional hockey career in a Swedish newspaper:
  • 270 stitches after being hit by a skate in the face in 1986.
  • Eyebrows stitched together more than 20 times.
  • Forehead stitches at least 10 times.
  • 50% reduced eye-sight on his right eye after being hit by a stick in his eye in 1978.
  • Reattachment of left ear.
  • Broken nosebone several times. (Quoted as: "It doesn't matter, we don't play with the nose, do we?")
  • Broken zygomatic bone.
  • 5 front teeth knocked out.
  • Broken collarbone, twice.
  • Dislocated shoulder, twice.
  • Broken ribs at several occasions.
  • Punctured left lung.
  • Several elbow injuries to both arms.
  • Four broken fingers on right hand.
  • Crushed knuckles on left hand.
  • Crushed knee-cap, right knee.
  • Right knee-meniscus and cruciate ligament operation.
  • Crushed left heel.
  • In total over 600 stitches, most facial.
Börje sure took some abuse during his hockey career. All the stitchings and broken bones stand out, but I believe that the eye-injury has to be what affected him most. Not only physically but also mentally. He said he was never really comfortable with using a visor, and always threw it away when the stitches were taken out.


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12-02-2011, 06:58 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Der Kaiser View Post
It has been commented on Börje Salming's decline. I think much of it is due to the amount of injuries he picked up over the years. He got a stick in his eye during the 1978 playoffs in a game against the Isles which nearly blinded him, it ended up reduced his sight on his right eye by 50%. I found a curious list of all Salming's injuries during his professional hockey career in a Swedish newspaper:
  • 270 stitches after being hit by a skate in the face in 1986.
  • Eyebrows stitched together more than 20 times.
  • Forehead stitches at least 10 times.
  • 50% reduced eye-sight on his right eye after being hit by a stick in his eye in 1978.
  • Reattachment of left ear.
  • Broken nosebone several times. (Quoted as: "It doesn't matter, we don't play with the nose, do we?")
  • Broken zygomatic bone.
  • 5 front teeth knocked out.
  • Broken collarbone, twice.
  • Dislocated shoulder, twice.
  • Broken ribs at several occasions.
  • Punctured left lung.
  • Several elbow injuries to both arms.
  • Four broken fingers on right hand.
  • Crushed knuckles on left hand.
  • Crushed knee-cap, right knee.
  • Right knee-meniscus and cruciate ligament operation.
  • Crushed left heel.
  • In total over 600 stitches, most facial.
Börje sure took some abuse during his hockey career. All the stitchings and broken bones stand out, but I believe that the eye-injury has to be what affected him most. Not only physically but also mentally. He said he was never really comfortable with using a visor, and always threw it away when the stitches were taken out.
Wow, that's quite a list. If Salming's play slipped a bit in his 30s, those injuries definitely help explain that.

I know some participants here are focused on the results, but I like to understand the narrative of a player's career, and injuries are often a bg part of that.

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12-02-2011, 07:04 AM
  #99
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Kaiser View Post
It has been commented on Börje Salming's decline. I think much of it is due to the amount of injuries he picked up over the years. He got a stick in his eye during the 1978 playoffs in a game against the Isles which nearly blinded him, it ended up reduced his sight on his right eye by 50%. I found a curious list of all Salming's injuries during his professional hockey career in a Swedish newspaper:
  • 270 stitches after being hit by a skate in the face in 1986.
  • Eyebrows stitched together more than 20 times.
  • Forehead stitches at least 10 times.
  • 50% reduced eye-sight on his right eye after being hit by a stick in his eye in 1978.
  • Reattachment of left ear.
  • Broken nosebone several times. (Quoted as: "It doesn't matter, we don't play with the nose, do we?")
  • Broken zygomatic bone.
  • 5 front teeth knocked out.
  • Broken collarbone, twice.
  • Dislocated shoulder, twice.
  • Broken ribs at several occasions.
  • Punctured left lung.
  • Several elbow injuries to both arms.
  • Four broken fingers on right hand.
  • Crushed knuckles on left hand.
  • Crushed knee-cap, right knee.
  • Right knee-meniscus and cruciate ligament operation.
  • Crushed left heel.
  • In total over 600 stitches, most facial.
Börje sure took some abuse during his hockey career. All the stitchings and broken bones stand out, but I believe that the eye-injury has to be what affected him most. Not only physically but also mentally. He said he was never really comfortable with using a visor, and always threw it away when the stitches were taken out.
Add into this just how poor the Leafs became around him too.

Salming was a beast and definitely one of the toughest hockey players I've ever seen.

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12-02-2011, 07:10 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Both times Gadsby switched teams, his old team allowed fewer goals and his new team allowed more:

CHI: 242 -> 235
NYR: 182 -> 210

NYR: 248 -> 207
DET: 215 -> 219

To Gadsby's credit: He missed most of the 1951 season. The team's GA went from 244 with him, to 280 mostly without him, to 241 with him again.

BraveCanadian, what was that you said about questioning the defensive play of original 6ers?
That wasn't me, that was your fellow moderator.

I do agree with him, though.

It is really too bad hockey doesn't have more situational stats etc because it is really hard to infer individual responsibility on GA.

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