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How important is this year to our future?

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Old
12-07-2011, 12:53 PM
  #51
karatekid
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Habs will never intentionally tank and therefore are forever bound to be a middle of the pack team.

That said, our future in net and on D is very bright.

Up front, not so much.

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Old
12-07-2011, 02:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Looking at our team for the last few years our magor flaw has always been that we don't have a true, legit magor offensive star. And it's the same thing this year. We need one badly. There's two ways to do this, either make a trade and those are difficult to make or finish dead last and pick a young promising one. If the Habs cannot compete, we have to contemplate tanking for the futur of this organization.
How's this for a stat...

Since 1986 (the last time we had a player in the top ten) we are the ONLY team in the NHL out of the 21 clubs that existed back then (including moves from Hartford to Carolina etc...) that has not produced a player in the top 10? Minnesota, NJ, Winnipeg... EVERY team has had at least one top ten scorer since then except us.

And Mats Naslund only accomplished this feat once. If you want to look back on us being in the top five in scoring you have to go all the way back to Guy Lafleur...

That is downright embarrassing.

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12-16-2011, 03:34 PM
  #53
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I'm becoming more and more open to the idea of a complete retooling. At least one of gionta/cammalleri need to go and Gomez(no brainer) as well. I'm not too much of a "trade EVERYTHING for picks" kind of guy. Picks are nice, but some young talent is better. Looking at someone like MPS in edmonton, might not be working out, still young and price probably still relatively high, but he'd be a great fit with Eller and not on a top contract.

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12-16-2011, 04:32 PM
  #54
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the Kaberle trade is exactly the type of move(s) that could seriously jeapordize our future.


- makes negotiating with and re-signing assets that could/should be part of a future contender (Subban/Price/Gorges/Kost) that much more difficult

- adds another overpaid veteran to our group of overpaid veterans

- did not add any future assets (picks/prospects) to our organization that can serve to improve our team in the future (either by their eventual play, or as assets to be used to help "put us over the top")



i'm holding my breath as we move forward... every day with PG still in charge, means at least a decent chance that we see a pick/prospect getting moved for some short- term fix.

nothing about what we've seen from this team points to a group that is a "quick fix" away from being a contender, until we have a management group in place with the kind of vision to see past short term gains, we'll be stuck in this same cycle.

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Old
12-16-2011, 07:12 PM
  #55
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What future? Back to the Future! Michael J. Fox should drive the Delorean back to 1976 and bring back The Flower and Steve Shuut, along with the big 3 and perhaps Rick Chartraw.
The Habs haven't had a future for years!

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Old
12-16-2011, 09:47 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
the Kaberle trade is exactly the type of move(s) that could seriously jeapordize our future.


- makes negotiating with and re-signing assets that could/should be part of a future contender (Subban/Price/Gorges/Kost) that much more difficult

- adds another overpaid veteran to our group of overpaid veterans

- did not add any future assets (picks/prospects) to our organization that can serve to improve our team in the future (either by their eventual play, or as assets to be used to help "put us over the top")



i'm holding my breath as we move forward... every day with PG still in charge, means at least a decent chance that we see a pick/prospect getting moved for some short- term fix.

nothing about what we've seen from this team points to a group that is a "quick fix" away from being a contender, until we have a management group in place with the kind of vision to see past short term gains, we'll be stuck in this same cycle.
If Kaberle's contract is an issue then you dump Gomez.

But don't let taht get in the way of your "sky is falling!" panic mode.

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Old
12-16-2011, 09:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Don't disagree with the idea that it would be great to land an elite caliber #1 centre... but, as we've seen since the mid-90's, finding one is not exactly easy.

I think that with a trio of:
Eller
Pleks
White (or possiblye Naatinen/Dumont/Engqvit)

we'd potentially be looking at one of the best "bottom-9" trio of centres in the league in 2-3 years from now. Pleks should still be a guy capable of being a 60-70pt producer, but I think Eller will be more than strong enough to be a clear top-6 guy by then, and pleks should still be a premier "shut-down" guy.

DD as the #1 may not be ideal, from an all-around (being as small as he is), but let's not discount that the guy is already a .51ppg player (42pts per 82 games prorated) in his short NHL career (76 games).

with another 150-200 games under his belt, he could very well keep improving, and push his production up to the .75-.80ppg - or better, putting him in the 60-70pt range.

if you have a top-9 centre group that has 3 60+pt players, two of which are excellent defensively, I think you give yourself enough quality down the middle to compete with most teams.

let's not forget Boston just won a cup with a centre trio of:
Krecj
Bergeron
Horton

it's not like they had an "elite" player down the middle (at least production-wise... all three are 60-70pt guys, not ppg players...)

So as much as I'd love to see us feature that big-skilled centre we haven't had for far too long, short of scoring big on the UFA market, or getting lucky in a "reverse-gainey" type trade where we rob someone blind, I don't think we will/should be looking at moving existing quality assets to chase down that elusive centre.

available elite UFA C's in next 3 offseason's:

2012-
none

2013-
Crosby
Getzlaf

2014-
Datsyuk
Malkin
Sedin
Statsny
Thornton
Marleau
Gomez

have to imagine the majority of those guys won't make it to UFAgency, but if one were to last until July 1st, then of course, it would be great to see the habs be in a situation to make a serious bid...

doing so would require us to make sure we get off this habit of paying top$$ for marginally effective veteran UFA's.
Thanks for doing the research I was too lazy to do!

Agreed, does not look good on the UFA front.

I think we will see a trade. Possibly this summer. Again sorry guys no time to research, but there must be a team out there with too many centers, and a 35 point young big center with 60 point upside, that needs some young D and a prospect, EG Weber, Diaz and Kristo. Yes it would hurt, but that's to be expected.

And yes I love DD, and he is producing right now, but we need a bigger no. 2 C who can take on the really tough no. 2 centers in the PO and win. Not sure DD is up to that. And I see Eller as great 3rd line C if he learns to get some points the rest of this year.

I think DD deserves to play in the NHL, as a no 3 center ona good team, or as no. 2 on a crap team. Unfortunately we will not have room for him if we pick up a bigger legit no. 2 C next year. So trade him next year for a good pick to allow him to develop and play next year.

What I'm saying is it really is a choice between Eller and DD. If Eller continues to improve this year and starts getting tougher points than DD, I keep Eller for the third line, not DD.

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Old
12-17-2011, 01:38 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If Kaberle's contract is an issue then you dump Gomez.

But don't let taht get in the way of your "sky is falling!" panic mode.
right, the way dumping gomez was so easily accomplished this offseason to give us the room we needed to keep Wiz (or at least give him a ball park offer?)...

and i didn't want to see us pay Wiz ~5M$... but if we were going to trade for Kaberle to fill the void anyways, and pay him 4.25M$, then much better to go into the season with the guy we knew, the guy who had worked out very well, and the guy who also brought a physical element to the back end.



and why is it you apologists are so focused on idiotic statements like "sky is falling"? what's the deal with that?

why is it so hard to comprehend that it is possible to disagree with something without it meaning ones entire perspective is alarmist or defeatist?

PG is not doing a particularly good job, nor is Martin... but don't worry, I'm pretty confident the sun will still rise tomorrow morning.

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Old
12-17-2011, 01:43 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Thanks for doing the research I was too lazy to do!

Agreed, does not look good on the UFA front.

I think we will see a trade. Possibly this summer. Again sorry guys no time to research, but there must be a team out there with too many centers, and a 35 point young big center with 60 point upside, that needs some young D and a prospect, EG Weber, Diaz and Kristo. Yes it would hurt, but that's to be expected.

And yes I love DD, and he is producing right now, but we need a bigger no. 2 C who can take on the really tough no. 2 centers in the PO and win. Not sure DD is up to that. And I see Eller as great 3rd line C if he learns to get some points the rest of this year.

I think DD deserves to play in the NHL, as a no 3 center ona good team, or as no. 2 on a crap team. Unfortunately we will not have room for him if we pick up a bigger legit no. 2 C next year. So trade him next year for a good pick to allow him to develop and play next year.

What I'm saying is it really is a choice between Eller and DD. If Eller continues to improve this year and starts getting tougher points than DD, I keep Eller for the third line, not DD.

as it sits right now, I agree that I'd rather see us find another C, superior to DD/Eller (and maybe even Pleks), and slot him in.

doing so, I also would sooner see Eller rounding out the top-3 C spots... but at the same time, I think we haven't yet seen the "high-end" of what DD will be capable as an NHLer, and so I wont rule out the possibility that he gets to a consistent performance level that undeniably establishes him as a solid top-6 C for a playoff/contending team.


but yeah, as of today, if (via trade/signing), it came down to keeping DD or Eller in the top 9, I'd have to go with Eller as well.

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Old
12-17-2011, 01:58 AM
  #60
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It's an interesting question... how important is this year to our development?

As far as what I can see, it's like many others that we've had in our recent past. It's a good opportunity for us to do something about building a winner. Instead of doing this, we opted for quick fixes (Kaberle and Cole) who are decent enough players but aren't going to take us anywhere substantial.

So we're doing what we always do... spinning our wheels, getting to be just good enough to make the playoffs but not challenge for a cup. We've squanedered so much time with this kind of stuff, always worrying about the last playoff spot and never worrying about building a winner.

It's really sad because even with some of our promising young players, I don't see us with any kind of plan to become contenders anytime soon. I don't really see us getting that much better over the next few years. I see individual players getting better but what are we surrounding them with? And who's our go to guy for the offense? We haven't had a legit offensive star in three decades now. When is this going to change? When is management even going to TRY to make it change?

There's no indication that mgmt is interested in anything other than 8th place. By taking this approach we've stunted our growth. If we'd rebuilt instead of chasing FAs and making silly trades we might actually be contenders by now. Instead, we're a perpetual bubble team. So what do we do? We waste this season so that three years from now, we aren't as far ahead as we could be...

It's a vicious cycle that we've been in for a long time and I actually think mgmt is quite happy with it. We make the playoffs almost every year in one of the bottom slots. No, we aren't going to win anything but hey... they can make money that way so, what the heck?

In another couple of years there will be 20 year old Montrealers who don't know what it's like not only to see what it's like to have their club win a cup, but to have a legitimate contending team that can challenge for the cup over a few seasons. And that's really sad to think about.

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Old
12-17-2011, 07:29 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's an interesting question... how important is this year to our development?

As far as what I can see, it's like many others that we've had in our recent past. It's a good opportunity for us to do something about building a winner. Instead of doing this, we opted for quick fixes (Kaberle and Cole) who are decent enough players but aren't going to take us anywhere substantial.

So we're doing what we always do... spinning our wheels, getting to be just good enough to make the playoffs but not challenge for a cup. We've squanedered so much time with this kind of stuff, always worrying about the last playoff spot and never worrying about building a winner.

It's really sad because even with some of our promising young players, I don't see us with any kind of plan to become contenders anytime soon. I don't really see us getting that much better over the next few years. I see individual players getting better but what are we surrounding them with? And who's our go to guy for the offense? We haven't had a legit offensive star in three decades now. When is this going to change? When is management even going to TRY to make it change?

There's no indication that mgmt is interested in anything other than 8th place. By taking this approach we've stunted our growth. If we'd rebuilt instead of chasing FAs and making silly trades we might actually be contenders by now. Instead, we're a perpetual bubble team. So what do we do? We waste this season so that three years from now, we aren't as far ahead as we could be...

It's a vicious cycle that we've been in for a long time and I actually think mgmt is quite happy with it. We make the playoffs almost every year in one of the bottom slots. No, we aren't going to win anything but hey... they can make money that way so, what the heck?

In another couple of years there will be 20 year old Montrealers who don't know what it's like not only to see what it's like to have their club win a cup, but to have a legitimate contending team that can challenge for the cup over a few seasons. And that's really sad to think about.
I agree with everything here LF, but we'll be called alarmists, pessimists. Told the sky is falling ect ect, they will explain ad nauseum how we're really a great team with consistently poor luck, that we've gone from putrid in 5vs5 scoring to middle of the pack, so everything is gravy now.

This regime, watching this brand of hockey has never made me more disinterested as habs fan. I fall a lseep during games now, I flick channels during the play, it's quite sad watching this team continue to patchwork fix to keep their jobs, rather than build towards some sort of sustainable contending.

We've got the young core guys in place.

Price
Subban
Eller
AK
Plekanecs
Pacioretty
DD
Gorges
Emelin
Diaz
Cole (not young but very useful)

They're the face of the team. Guys like Gionta, Gomez, Cammy, Gill, Spacek, now Kaberle we can do without, quite frankly, they aren't much good anyways, and collectively they suck.

All the key players on the habs roster aside from Erik Cole have been either drafted and developed by the habs or traded for, the only UFA that looks decent is Cole, but in 3 years after this, I have my doubts about that too.

We have the biggest waste of cash on useless players in the entire league, we're becoming the Leafs of the 80's for christ sakes, signing guys who are near finished in hopes they can turn it around. I'm tired of it already.

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Old
12-17-2011, 07:41 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by j52 View Post
What future? Back to the Future! Michael J. Fox should drive the Delorean back to 1976 and bring back The Flower and Steve Shuut, along with the big 3 and perhaps Rick Chartraw.
The Habs haven't had a future for years!
It's not those guys we're lacking, It's Sam Pollack who they should be bringing back to the future.

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Old
12-17-2011, 08:34 AM
  #63
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It could be key. With Kaberle's salary the habs may lose key players... There will be a need to dump.

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12-17-2011, 05:45 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's an interesting question... how important is this year to our development?

As far as what I can see, it's like many others that we've had in our recent past. It's a good opportunity for us to do something about building a winner. Instead of doing this, we opted for quick fixes (Kaberle and Cole) who are decent enough players but aren't going to take us anywhere substantial.

So we're doing what we always do... spinning our wheels, getting to be just good enough to make the playoffs but not challenge for a cup. We've squanedered so much time with this kind of stuff, always worrying about the last playoff spot and never worrying about building a winner.

It's really sad because even with some of our promising young players, I don't see us with any kind of plan to become contenders anytime soon. I don't really see us getting that much better over the next few years. I see individual players getting better but what are we surrounding them with? And who's our go to guy for the offense? We haven't had a legit offensive star in three decades now. When is this going to change? When is management even going to TRY to make it change?

There's no indication that mgmt is interested in anything other than 8th place. By taking this approach we've stunted our growth. If we'd rebuilt instead of chasing FAs and making silly trades we might actually be contenders by now. Instead, we're a perpetual bubble team. So what do we do? We waste this season so that three years from now, we aren't as far ahead as we could be...

It's a vicious cycle that we've been in for a long time and I actually think mgmt is quite happy with it. We make the playoffs almost every year in one of the bottom slots. No, we aren't going to win anything but hey... they can make money that way so, what the heck?

In another couple of years there will be 20 year old Montrealers who don't know what it's like not only to see what it's like to have their club win a cup, but to have a legitimate contending team that can challenge for the cup over a few seasons. And that's really sad to think about.
Gotta agree with you buddy. It's a pointless cycle. I remember with Gainey we'd look back and see a massive prospect pool coming up and we were trending upwards until we dropped the ball on the centenial year. Suddenly, our prospect pool is average, is our team is overpaid. What makes it worse is we're playing boring hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I agree with everything here LF, but we'll be called alarmists, pessimists. Told the sky is falling ect ect, they will explain ad nauseum how we're really a great team with consistently poor luck, that we've gone from putrid in 5vs5 scoring to middle of the pack, so everything is gravy now.

This regime, watching this brand of hockey has never made me more disinterested as habs fan. I fall a lseep during games now, I flick channels during the play, it's quite sad watching this team continue to patchwork fix to keep their jobs, rather than build towards some sort of sustainable contending.

We've got the young core guys in place.

Price
Subban
Eller
AK
Plekanecs
Pacioretty
DD
Gorges
Emelin
Diaz
Cole (not young but very useful)

They're the face of the team. Guys like Gionta, Gomez, Cammy, Gill, Spacek, now Kaberle we can do without, quite frankly, they aren't much good anyways, and collectively they suck.

All the key players on the habs roster aside from Erik Cole have been either drafted and developed by the habs or traded for, the only UFA that looks decent is Cole, but in 3 years after this, I have my doubts about that too.

We have the biggest waste of cash on useless players in the entire league, we're becoming the Leafs of the 80's for christ sakes, signing guys who are near finished in hopes they can turn it around. I'm tired of it already.
Thing is, Kaberle and Cole weren't acquired by anything besides money, which is a HUGE sigh of relief.

I agree that is pretty much our core, but there's obviously some retooling or rebuilding needed. I think we're young and talented enough that a retool is best option. No need to rebuild when Plek and company are still 'prime age' even though they aren't playing like it. I so badly want to kick gionta and/or cammalleri out the door right now. I like their game and everything but we only need 1 of the two. Gomez can honestly GTFO and asap please.

I can live with the contracts to kaberle and cole, because they are good players but when you're .500 anyway...there's a problem.

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Old
12-17-2011, 07:42 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
How's this for a stat...

Since 1986 (the last time we had a player in the top ten) we are the ONLY team in the NHL out of the 21 clubs that existed back then (including moves from Hartford to Carolina etc...) that has not produced a player in the top 10? Minnesota, NJ, Winnipeg... EVERY team has had at least one top ten scorer since then except us.

And Mats Naslund only accomplished this feat once. If you want to look back on us being in the top five in scoring you have to go all the way back to Guy Lafleur...

That is downright embarrassing.
Sometime I think it's faith punishing us because we had too many fortunes in the 70s. When Cammy was scoring a lot two years ago I thought wow I can't remember when it was having someone scoring on a regular basis, a real goal scorer. It felt good for a short while. Now imagine that happening more regularly and having more than one player like that..

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12-17-2011, 11:34 PM
  #66
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If we had to target some players for retooling, who are some realistic to semi realistic young players on the wishlist?

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12-18-2011, 12:15 AM
  #67
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If we had to target some players for retooling, who are some realistic to semi realistic young players on the wishlist?
I could see trading Couturier for Subban or Evander Kane for Pacioretty plus a 1st or 2nd.

With Pronger out for an extended length of time it might be a trade they are interested in, plus the Flyers are going to be in a different division next year. I have heard and read rumours (Wpg. Free Press) that Kane has asked for a trade out of Winnipeg, something I haven't heard either side deny.

The problem with trading for young players is they tend to want young players in exchange making them lateral moves, you create a hole as big as you fill. If management wanted to take a chance on Brassard I wouldn't mind as long as we give up something we can lose and won't miss.

The players I'm more interested are a little older (like on their last year as a RFA) or getting close to 30, where they have 5+ years of good service left in their bodies.

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12-18-2011, 12:34 AM
  #68
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[QUOTE=Frozenice;41128939]I could see trading Couturier for Subban or Evander Kane for Pacioretty plus a 1st or 2nd.
QUOTE]

We need to get rid of the old players, not the young ones.
Also,our 1st=untouchable
I'm sure we could get at least a first for Cammy

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12-18-2011, 12:53 AM
  #69
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I could see trading Couturier for Subban or Evander Kane for Pacioretty plus a 1st or 2nd.

With Pronger out for an extended length of time it might be a trade they are interested in, plus the Flyers are going to be in a different division next year. I have heard and read rumours (Wpg. Free Press) that Kane has asked for a trade out of Winnipeg, something I haven't heard either side deny.

The problem with trading for young players is they tend to want young players in exchange making them lateral moves, you create a hole as big as you fill. If management wanted to take a chance on Brassard I wouldn't mind as long as we give up something we can lose and won't miss.

The players I'm more interested are a little older (like on their last year as a RFA) or getting close to 30, where they have 5+ years of good service left in their bodies.
Well, I don't think either is a good deal, but there are trades we could make. Cammalleri has value and we should dangle him for the right piece.

There's guys like Zach Bogosian who were rumoured to be out at certain points. Others like Kyle okposo and Magmus PS who are younger guys who may have less potential but on affordable deals(in case of okposo its an amazing deal) that should be considered to add to the young core IMO. We desperately need a first line center 1A or 1B but plekanec is useful and i'd like to keep him as the alternate top 6 center.

There's a few teams that need a shakeup. Such as Washington: Maybe Semin can be had in a trade for gionta. We trade them a signed, playoff type guy to help them out of their slump, we get an offensive talent, many will argue, but he's not signed unless we sign him(which is the goal) and Semin may provide that elite offensive talent we've been looking for.

There has to be a buy low potential out there, and I think we have to take advantage. I'd also like adding some sandpaper with a guy like clarkson perhaps. I mean, these are all distinct, somewhat realistic possibilities for retooling. I don't expect ovechkin, parise or something of that nature but getting some younger players or players who fill a need would help.

Example: NJD have 40 mil in capspace out of 64 million used for next year without the following signed and only 14 players signed total(24 mil for 10 ish players):

Parise
Brodeur

Not too dramatic but it depends their direction. Parise won't be had for free and seems like he's gonna ask for 7 mil or so a year. 17 mil for 9 players, one of which is brodeur. Even if he goes for 3 mil, its 14 mil over 8 players. It's a close one.

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12-18-2011, 01:27 AM
  #70
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What would you pay for Radulov's rights?

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12-18-2011, 11:24 PM
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What would you pay for Radulov's rights?
Good question. I wonder what he's value and asking price is. He's tearing up KHL and is only 25.

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12-19-2011, 02:29 AM
  #72
MasterDecoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
What would you pay for Radulov's rights?
not much to be honest...

if nashville (it is them who have his rights yeh?) can't bring him back, who says we'd be able to?

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12-19-2011, 02:44 AM
  #73
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
not much to be honest...

if nashville (it is them who have his rights yeh?) can't bring him back, who says we'd be able to?
He's had conflicts with them, that's the problem.

Off top of my head, I feel if we can retool with a younger core he's a list off top of my head who we can target:

Okposo(NYI)
Bailey(NYI)
MPS(edmonton)
Beach(Chicago)
Hanzal(Phoenix)
Boedker(Phoenix)
Kindl(Detroit)
Bogosian(Winnipeg)

Semin(Washington)
Clarkson(NJD)



etc...

Some are more realistic than others but guys like Cammalleri may have value.

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12-19-2011, 03:20 AM
  #74
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I think Bogosian will stay in Winnipeg and if I were to guess it will be either Oduya or Hainsey on their way out. We could of picked Kulda off of waivers as a #6 d-man from them last week. Nothing fancy, decent hitter, okay skater, plays a simple game.

If we can't sign Gorges I would be okay with Oduya taking his spot on our roster, if he becomes a UFA.


With Radulov, I'm not sure whether he dislikes Nashville or he dislikes the NHL, but I would be willing to give up a 2nd and maybe Kristo for his rights, we could use that kind of player on our team.

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01-07-2012, 02:54 AM
  #75
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Approx a month later is my point more valid than ever? We're a team with little top prospect depth and little trade value for our top paid players. If a plan isn't made in motion this year we will end up the calgary of the east. Measures must be taken to ensure the Gorges, Plekanecs and so on will get a young supporting cast during their prime to make a cup run and be perrenial contenders.

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