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Old
12-02-2011, 12:45 PM
  #51
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Martin is great.

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Old
12-02-2011, 12:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
When I look at having to sign a guy like Neal, then the others in subsequent years, I think to myself how nice it would be to have Martin's 5M dollars off the books.
Yup. I'm right with you. Martin's been alright, but not nearly the impact defenseman everybody expected here. We have offensive lines. They could use some support from the back. Offensive support. Martin hasn't provided nearly as much of that as I expected. We all thought getting out of NJ was going to be great for Martin...kinda like it was for Scott Niedermayer when he went to Anaheim. But he was quite honestly a better player in NJ.

In a cap era, it's not a question of "he sucks, he's gotta go" vs. "he's great, I love him". It's more a question of "is he WORTH the cap hit?".

I don't think so. I don't care what he's worth on the open market, et al. What is he worth to the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS, a team with two franchise centers, an expensive elite goalie, an expensive Norris-caliber defenseman, an expensive elite two-way center and an RFA-to-be sniper who is our best winger since the brief stay of Marian Hossa.

When we flirted with the idea of re-signing Hossa, everybody said it would have cost us Orpik, at least. Well, James Neal is going to cost as well. Who's the least valuable of our big tickets? Paul Martin.

And you don't want to try to squeeze everybody into the equation, cuz that leaves us with little wiggle room in case some more youth develops quickly, or trades, injuries and also the fact that if you tie up too many players to long-term deals with NTC/NMCs, you may find yourself in a bad spot. Like so MANY teams have done.

Shero has always avoided that. So, dealing Martin at season's end makes a lot of sense. If we were to consider it during the season, we'd have to counter that move with the addition of a veteran UFA D-man to add depth and cover our tracks.

But it shouldn't be dismissed. He's simply not worth keeping imo. We have incredible depth coming up in the system at only one position, D. Let's use our best resource.

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Old
12-02-2011, 12:53 PM
  #53
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Martin is great.
No.

Not right now he isn't.

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Old
12-02-2011, 12:56 PM
  #54
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Trade Martin

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Old
12-02-2011, 01:14 PM
  #55
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So if we get rid of Martin...who are we going to bring in? Realistically? Who would be enough of an upgrade to warrant going after that would 1. fit under the cap and 2. be available?

Once the defense is healthy again...it will start to come back. The top 4 will reestablish themselves at a great d-core. Nisky and Eng as 5/6 is just a bonus for us. Morrow, Bort, and Despres coming up is also a bonus.

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Old
12-02-2011, 02:40 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
When I look at having to sign a guy like Neal, then the others in subsequent years, I think to myself how nice it would be to have Martin's 5M dollars off the books.
But then you don't have Paul Martin. I'm sorry, but he is head and shoulders better than whoever would be in to replace him. Good d-men cost money. It might be necessary eventually, but our defense will be worse because of it.

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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I'm not in a rush to trade him -- mainly because at this point I really don't think you'll be able to deal him for an upgrade on him at a similar salary without giving additional assets -- but I'm firmly in the camp that would deal him if, miraculously, that upgrade was available.
Obviously. I'd trade Crosby if an upgrade was available.

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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I think once we get all our defensemen back (haha as if that will ever happen for longer than a 5-game stretch), Martin won't be as exposed. Right now he's playing the kind of minutes that a legitimate #1 plays, and I don't think he is one. He's getting Letang's top PP minutes and Michalek's top PK minutes, and it's exposing his flaws. Once they're back and Martin's no longer on the PP, and no longer on the top PK unit, as well as no longer the top minute guy on the blueline as a whole, hopefully he'll be fine.
His best games of the season have come while either Orpik or Letang were out and he was playing top minutes. The powerplay is where he consistently looks bad.

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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Yup. I'm right with you. Martin's been alright, but not nearly the impact defenseman everybody expected here. We have offensive lines. They could use some support from the back. Offensive support. Martin hasn't provided nearly as much of that as I expected. We all thought getting out of NJ was going to be great for Martin...kinda like it was for Scott Niedermayer when he went to Anaheim. But he was quite honestly a better player in NJ.

In a cap era, it's not a question of "he sucks, he's gotta go" vs. "he's great, I love him". It's more a question of "is he WORTH the cap hit?".

I don't think so. I don't care what he's worth on the open market, et al. What is he worth to the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS, a team with two franchise centers, an expensive elite goalie, an expensive Norris-caliber defenseman, an expensive elite two-way center and an RFA-to-be sniper who is our best winger since the brief stay of Marian Hossa.

When we flirted with the idea of re-signing Hossa, everybody said it would have cost us Orpik, at least. Well, James Neal is going to cost as well. Who's the least valuable of our big tickets? Paul Martin.

And you don't want to try to squeeze everybody into the equation, cuz that leaves us with little wiggle room in case some more youth develops quickly, or trades, injuries and also the fact that if you tie up too many players to long-term deals with NTC/NMCs, you may find yourself in a bad spot. Like so MANY teams have done.

Shero has always avoided that. So, dealing Martin at season's end makes a lot of sense. If we were to consider it during the season, we'd have to counter that move with the addition of a veteran UFA D-man to add depth and cover our tracks.

But it shouldn't be dismissed. He's simply not worth keeping imo. We have incredible depth coming up in the system at only one position, D. Let's use our best resource.
We are a team built around offensive zone puck possession. He is the best defenseman on our team at turning a defensive play into controlled offensive zone possession. Not necessarily this season so far, but last year he was and the last two games he has been. Once we start getting guys like Despres and Morrow ready to fill in as 2nd pairing guys then sure, look into trading him. Currently and in the near future his replacement would be substantial downgrade.

If it comes down to him or Neal then sure, he might need traded. But our defense will be considerably worse because of it. I would have to agree that he is probably the least valuable of our big-money guys if it ever comes to that point.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-02-2011 at 02:46 PM.
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Old
12-02-2011, 03:02 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Yup. I'm right with you. Martin's been alright, but not nearly the impact defenseman everybody expected here. We have offensive lines. They could use some support from the back. Offensive support. Martin hasn't provided nearly as much of that as I expected. We all thought getting out of NJ was going to be great for Martin...kinda like it was for Scott Niedermayer when he went to Anaheim. But he was quite honestly a better player in NJ.

In a cap era, it's not a question of "he sucks, he's gotta go" vs. "he's great, I love him". It's more a question of "is he WORTH the cap hit?".

I don't think so. I don't care what he's worth on the open market, et al. What is he worth to the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS, a team with two franchise centers, an expensive elite goalie, an expensive Norris-caliber defenseman, an expensive elite two-way center and an RFA-to-be sniper who is our best winger since the brief stay of Marian Hossa.

When we flirted with the idea of re-signing Hossa, everybody said it would have cost us Orpik, at least. Well, James Neal is going to cost as well. Who's the least valuable of our big tickets? Paul Martin.

And you don't want to try to squeeze everybody into the equation, cuz that leaves us with little wiggle room in case some more youth develops quickly, or trades, injuries and also the fact that if you tie up too many players to long-term deals with NTC/NMCs, you may find yourself in a bad spot. Like so MANY teams have done.

Shero has always avoided that. So, dealing Martin at season's end makes a lot of sense. If we were to consider it during the season, we'd have to counter that move with the addition of a veteran UFA D-man to add depth and cover our tracks.

But it shouldn't be dismissed. He's simply not worth keeping imo. We have incredible depth coming up in the system at only one position, D. Let's use our best resource.
I really don't see us tacking on much more than a couple million between Neal/Staal's raises. Sid will most likely stay around the same.

We don't need to move any of our top 4. Why would we mess with that when we can have Niskanen and Engelland on our bottom pairing. And Despres/Bortuzzo in WBS for another year.

When Letang/Geno's contracts are up, we may very well have the luxury of moving one of Martin/Michalek, but I'd rather wait until then. At least that's how I see properly utilizing our assets.

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Old
12-02-2011, 03:19 PM
  #58
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I wish we could trade some of our fans.

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Old
12-02-2011, 03:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The Oneironaut View Post
No.

Not right now he isn't.
For those of us that have a better memory than a goldfish, Martin has been and will at some point continue to be great.

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Old
12-02-2011, 03:29 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Yup. I'm right with you. Martin's been alright, but not nearly the impact defenseman everybody expected here. We have offensive lines. They could use some support from the back. Offensive support. Martin hasn't provided nearly as much of that as I expected. We all thought getting out of NJ was going to be great for Martin...kinda like it was for Scott Niedermayer when he went to Anaheim. But he was quite honestly a better player in NJ.

In a cap era, it's not a question of "he sucks, he's gotta go" vs. "he's great, I love him". It's more a question of "is he WORTH the cap hit?".

I don't think so. I don't care what he's worth on the open market, et al. What is he worth to the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS, a team with two franchise centers, an expensive elite goalie, an expensive Norris-caliber defenseman, an expensive elite two-way center and an RFA-to-be sniper who is our best winger since the brief stay of Marian Hossa.

When we flirted with the idea of re-signing Hossa, everybody said it would have cost us Orpik, at least. Well, James Neal is going to cost as well. Who's the least valuable of our big tickets? Paul Martin.

And you don't want to try to squeeze everybody into the equation, cuz that leaves us with little wiggle room in case some more youth develops quickly, or trades, injuries and also the fact that if you tie up too many players to long-term deals with NTC/NMCs, you may find yourself in a bad spot. Like so MANY teams have done.

Shero has always avoided that. So, dealing Martin at season's end makes a lot of sense. If we were to consider it during the season, we'd have to counter that move with the addition of a veteran UFA D-man to add depth and cover our tracks.

But it shouldn't be dismissed. He's simply not worth keeping imo. We have incredible depth coming up in the system at only one position, D. Let's use our best resource.
People started screaming that at 29 he was going to discover his scoring touch when he gets out of New Jersey. The smarter fans knew what he brings was never going to be offense.

Guy played almost 30 minutes last night in a 1 goal game win & people think that's just by coincidence? You will not find a defensman to replace him. Not in our system & not in free agency.

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Old
12-02-2011, 03:47 PM
  #61
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Here is a stat. The only players to play more minutes than him are Weber, Suter, Campell, Phaneuf, & Karlsson. We are first in the league, 10th in defense. If he is that bad than how is he playing all this time on a first place team? Are the other four players playing that great?

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12-02-2011, 03:49 PM
  #62
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Martin has been better than Orpik this year. I'd argue Engelland has been better as well.

I almost wish people wouldn't look at their salaries. Let Shero worry about that. Martin is a huge minute muncher that doesn't belong on a 1st unit PP.

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Old
12-02-2011, 04:07 PM
  #63
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Again, the only real concern about Martin is how he handles deep playoff runs.

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Old
12-02-2011, 04:11 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
Again, the only real concern about Martin is how he handles deep playoff runs.
I agree. That is a legitimate concern as he isn't very proven in the postseason.

Ideally I'd like to see us build a playoff caliber 3rd pairing in case Martin does have trouble against the more physical teams like Boston.

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Old
12-02-2011, 04:15 PM
  #65
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I have yet to hear a convincing argument that getting rid of Martin for a winger would make us a better team & closer to another championship.

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12-02-2011, 04:20 PM
  #66
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The short term memory of fans on the internet is really frustrating some times. I understand legitimate complaints and differences in opinion. But some people just making blanket statements about trading a guy of Martin's caliber is just ridiculous. We should not and will not trade Paul Martin this season. The end.

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12-02-2011, 04:24 PM
  #67
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I have yet to hear a convincing argument that getting rid of Martin for a winger would make us a better team & closer to another championship.
It's really not even an argument. Shero is not trading a guy of Martin's caliber in his 2nd year of a contract with a NTC/NMC. We dont' have anyone who can step into his role.

Hey, I'd love it if Despres was ready to go and could be a top tier shutdown guy for our middle pairing so we can trade Martin+ for a top line RW. But this isn't fantasy hockey and it isn't going to happen.

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12-02-2011, 04:39 PM
  #68
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I'm not for trading him at this time, I'm more for letting him play himself out of it. With that said, he has played like crap all year with very few good games. Someone mentioned how you never notice him when he's playing well, it seems alot of people are noticing him so he must not be playing good.

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12-02-2011, 04:55 PM
  #69
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It's really not even an argument. Shero is not trading a guy of Martin's caliber in his 2nd year of a contract with a NTC/NMC. We dont' have anyone who can step into his role.

Hey, I'd love it if Despres was ready to go and could be a top tier shutdown guy for our middle pairing so we can trade Martin+ for a top line RW. But this isn't fantasy hockey and it isn't going to happen.
Even if Despres woke up Tomorrow & was ready for top 4 duties why would trade some one? If we are building a winner the weakness on this team right now is not winger, it's that bottom pairing & more frankly Niskanen.

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12-02-2011, 05:20 PM
  #70
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Even if Despres woke up Tomorrow & was ready for top 4 duties why would trade some one? If we are building a winner the weakness on this team right now is not winger, it's that bottom pairing & more frankly Niskanen.
Don't you really mean Lovejoy?

Niskanen has been anything but a sore spot. He's a fine #4/5 on any team. We are just spoiled with a great top 4.

Pens lack a bottom pairing D-man with a bit more size, that's all.

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12-02-2011, 05:39 PM
  #71
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Yeah, don't get the "Niskanen is a weakness" argument. He's been very good. We're in a great position defensively right now. The top 4 are going to turn it around. Niskanen and Engelland have been quite good. Despres and Bortuzzo are coming a fantastic game where they have shown what they can do.

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12-02-2011, 05:42 PM
  #72
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I swear I am watching different games. Like last night when Niskanen wasn't even in the picture for the Caps goal because he was so far out of position.

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12-02-2011, 06:04 PM
  #73
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I think that goal is a pretty good example of what Cole's been preaching regarding the defensive system. Nobody knew who their man was. I might even place some responsibility on Crosby, as he had Chimera in front of the net while Orpik had Ward. Then, when Ward went up high, Crosby followed him over to the boards for some reason, made a half-assed attempt at getting the puck, then skated lazily back towards the net after Ward, leaving Chimera and Ward with a mini 2-on-1.

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12-02-2011, 06:26 PM
  #74
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Yeah Im not blaming Niskanen On that one. Zone coverage is costing us. Niskanen has been fine in his own end IMO.

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12-02-2011, 06:48 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Yup. I'm right with you. Martin's been alright, but not nearly the impact defenseman everybody expected here. We have offensive lines. They could use some support from the back. Offensive support. Martin hasn't provided nearly as much of that as I expected. We all thought getting out of NJ was going to be great for Martin...kinda like it was for Scott Niedermayer when he went to Anaheim. But he was quite honestly a better player in NJ.

In a cap era, it's not a question of "he sucks, he's gotta go" vs. "he's great, I love him". It's more a question of "is he WORTH the cap hit?".

I don't think so. I don't care what he's worth on the open market, et al. What is he worth to the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS, a team with two franchise centers, an expensive elite goalie, an expensive Norris-caliber defenseman, an expensive elite two-way center and an RFA-to-be sniper who is our best winger since the brief stay of Marian Hossa.

When we flirted with the idea of re-signing Hossa, everybody said it would have cost us Orpik, at least. Well, James Neal is going to cost as well. Who's the least valuable of our big tickets? Paul Martin.

And you don't want to try to squeeze everybody into the equation, cuz that leaves us with little wiggle room in case some more youth develops quickly, or trades, injuries and also the fact that if you tie up too many players to long-term deals with NTC/NMCs, you may find yourself in a bad spot. Like so MANY teams have done.

Shero has always avoided that. So, dealing Martin at season's end makes a lot of sense. If we were to consider it during the season, we'd have to counter that move with the addition of a veteran UFA D-man to add depth and cover our tracks.

But it shouldn't be dismissed. He's simply not worth keeping imo. We have incredible depth coming up in the system at only one position, D. Let's use our best resource.
For the Pittsburgh Penguins, it's more a question of:

"If we trade Martin, how do we round out our top 4?"

Do you have a good answer?

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