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Old
12-02-2011, 04:06 AM
  #1
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Red Wings prospect Value

With the recent grumblings that Bobby Ryan could be available and might be again if Bruce Boudreau cannot get things turned around in Anaheim. Also the feeling that Iginla could eventually be moved from Calgary this season. Holland has promised to be active this year. So with that in mind, I was wondering who people thought were our five most important prospects and why? i.e guys you probably don't want to see moved.

My Top 5 would be

1.) Brendan Smith - really the only franchise D guy we have, hoping Sproul continues on his development, but he is my favorite player in the system.

2.) Gustav Nyquist - He has been amazing for three years going on four, oozes confidence and has not slowed down in pre-season camp or the AHL since turning pro.

3.) Tomas Jurco - I think the comparisons to Marian Hossa while lofty are achievable, also played big in the Memorial Cup last year and at 6'2" with his skating when he fills out will be an absolute terror on the wing.

4.) Riley Sheahan - Since he was one of the last cuts by Canada for last years WJC his offense has arrived to match his lofty first round selection. Big guy and plays big, plus if he fails offensively he will still be a useful depth guy.

5.) Petr Mrazek - His numbers have not been as good this year, but he still wins quite a bit. Quite frankly we don't have much in the goalie department, even though McCollum is starting to show signs of life in GR. We need to hold on to this kid and hope he develops so we have an option should Jimmy become to expensive and leave via free agency.

Guys I am most willing to move

Tomas Tatar
Calle Jarnkrok

I like both of these players, actually like Jarnkrok more and I would hope these two would only be moved for a major piece. But with Nyquist, Tatar, and Jarnkrok we have an abundance of undersized potential top six guys. I would be willing to part with one of them in a trade for an Iginla type.

Curious if Pulkkinen, Tvrdon, Almqvist, Ferraro etc. make any of the lists.

Thoughts?

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12-02-2011, 04:27 AM
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If we're going by guys I wouldn't want moved I would rank them:

1. Brendan Smith - no question, will have a huge hole on D when Lidstrom retires, plus he's our best prospect.
2. Gustav Nyquist - best forward prospect and closest to moving into the regular lineup. Will need him in the top six soon.
3. Calle Jarnkrok - best prospect not in NA, will be important for him to fill Z's role as he ages
4. Riley Sheahan - power forward who is starting to put up points. great defensively. if his point production keeps up we're looking at a very good two-way 2nd-3rd line power forward center, something the wings could really use
5. Tomas Jurco - top line talent if he reaches his potential.

6. Sproul
7. Tatar
8. Pulkkinen
9. Tvrdon
10. Ouellet

Will probably need one of Sproul/Ouellet to pan out as Kronwall and Stuart age.
Goalies aren't valuable, especially prospect goalies. and we won't be needing one for 7-8 years hopefully
I think Tatar & Pulkkinen are expendable as Tatar will have a hard time getting into the top 6 for a while and I don't think Pulkkinen's game will translate to NA. But I still think they have value so I would be inclined to put them in any trade with a team who wants a prospect or two from us

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12-02-2011, 05:16 AM
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I see the logic with moving a player like Järnkrok, of which we may have other good prospect of the "same size".

But you have to be aware that Järnkrok is playing very very well in the SEL. That is obviously good even if you DO want to trade him anyway, more trade value!

There is always a bunch of hyped Swedish players that fail to deliver in the NHL, but I seriously doubt that Järnkrok, small or not, will fail to make his way into a top 6 role in the NHL, he's just too good.

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12-02-2011, 05:26 AM
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Smith is no brainer. With Lidstrom nearing the end, Smith's going to be counted on as a big contributer from the blueline (at least offensively speaking.)

With the forwards: Jarnkrok, Nyquist, and Sheahan are the 3 that i see with the most value for Detroit. It's hard not to be high on Nyquist (skilled, almost NHL ready), but to me Jarnkrok might actually have the highest ceiling among our prospects (and thus the one i'd most hate to lose). His skill, to go along with his hockey sense and skating is something to be very excited about. And Sheahan i value high because he's in a different mold physically speaking, and at the very least he seems to be NHL bound for his 3rd line/defensive ability.

Overall i think i agree with the banks' top 5.

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12-02-2011, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomas W View Post
I see the logic with moving a player like Järnkrok, of which we may have other good prospect of the "same size".

But you have to be aware that Järnkrok is playing very very well in the SEL. That is obviously good even if you DO want to trade him anyway, more trade value!

There is always a bunch of hyped Swedish players that fail to deliver in the NHL, but I seriously doubt that Järnkrok, small or not, will fail to make his way into a top 6 role in the NHL, he's just too good.
To be fair don't really want to move Jarnkrok, would hope Tatar is the one sent first. But if it took him instead or Tatar to do a Ryan or Parise deal I would listen. If either player is going, the other should not be involved in my opinion. Jarnkrok might have the highest ceiling of all the guys, I would expect a big time player if he was ever involved in any deal. I like the reports I have read, would really like to know if he is bulking up at all.

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12-02-2011, 05:41 AM
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Our most important prospects....

1. Smith - One of our top prospects and our only real great defense prospect; given our needs on the blueline coming up, he's not going anywhere

2. Nyquist - Our best forward prospect atm; I think he'll actually end up being more valuable than Smith, but Smith fills a bigger need atm

3. Jarnkrok - Our prospect with the highest upside; Jarnkrok has potential star makeup, but he has a ways to go yet

4. Sheahan - Size, skating, two-way play, budding offensive ability; just too good of a package to be ranked any lower

5. Jurco - More size with elite scoring potential from the right side; has a ways to go, but the package is there

Tatar would be the honorable mention here, but I wouldn't weep if he were part of a package for a real good player. Everyone else should be easily available, imo. Pulkkinen and Mrazek could be good trade chips if they can get their games back on track. Almqvist too, if there are any teams who actually view him as a legit prospect.

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12-02-2011, 09:07 AM
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Somehow I feel Pulkkinen doesn't have much value before he actually does something in North America.

It's hard to find kids with trade-value because you don't want to let go of the actual good ones...

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12-02-2011, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Our most important prospects....

1. Smith - One of our top prospects and our only real great defense prospect; given our needs on the blueline coming up, he's not going anywhere

2. Nyquist - Our best forward prospect atm; I think he'll actually end up being more valuable than Smith, but Smith fills a bigger need atm

3. Jarnkrok - Our prospect with the highest upside; Jarnkrok has potential star makeup, but he has a ways to go yet

4. Sheahan - Size, skating, two-way play, budding offensive ability; just too good of a package to be ranked any lower

5. Jurco - More size with elite scoring potential from the right side; has a ways to go, but the package is there

Tatar would be the honorable mention here, but I wouldn't weep if he were part of a package for a real good player. Everyone else should be easily available, imo. Pulkkinen and Mrazek could be good trade chips if they can get their games back on track. Almqvist too, if there are any teams who actually view him as a legit prospect.
my list exactly,same order and everything

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12-02-2011, 10:18 AM
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People are sooooo quick to write off Tatar when he was the golden boy not so long ago.

He had a slow start but he's also playing second fiddle on the second line.
He's up to 15 points in 20 games, good for third on the team.

He's still younger than Nyquist by more than a year.

If his skating continues to develop the way it has, he's going to be a good one. Whether or not he's a good one in Detroit may be another story.

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12-02-2011, 10:29 AM
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1. Brendan Smith - He won't replace Lidstrom, nobody will though as Lidstrom is a once in a lifetime player, but he's the closest the Wings have

2. Teemu Pulkkinen - Only reason why he's so high on my list is because the lack of a pure sniper. Again, closest thing the Wings have. The thought of him on the point on the PP also makes me giddy.

3. Tomas Tatar - He's nothing but heart and hustle with tremoundous speed and forecheck and a nice shot. When the Wings were in their skid this kid is what everyone was screaming for and quite frankly I was pretty pissed he didn't get the call up before a lot of guys. My favorite prospect bv far. Tell me he doesn't WANT to be a Red Wing; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFyJkf4TtkQ

4. Calle Jarnkrok - Compared to Zetterberg and Jarnkrok said he bases his game of Hank. Enough said.

5. Gustav Nyquist - Not much to say about him that he already hasn't shown. Actions speak louder than words

Honoroble mention: Tomas Jurco. He has the skills but will it translate to the NA game? IMO it's pretty easy to be a stickhandling youtube sensation when you aren't on the ice and have guys coming at you. That aside, he still has a TON of talent and it'll be interesting to see what he does with it.

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12-02-2011, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
People are sooooo quick to write off Tatar when he was the golden boy not so long ago.

He had a slow start but he's also playing second fiddle on the second line.
He's up to 15 points in 20 games, good for third on the team.

He's still younger than Nyquist by more than a year.

If his skating continues to develop the way it has, he's going to be a good one. Whether or not he's a good one in Detroit may be another story.
This seems to happen every year. I don't really understand it but it seems the most recent draft picks always end up being higher on peoples projections then the guys that were there the year before. I think it has something to do with hyping/hoping the new guys are going to be the real deal.

To me I would take an average season in the AHL for Tatar over Jurco lighting it up in juniors any day. This doesn't mean Jurco may not end up better but right now his value is nowhere near Tatar's in my opinion.

1. Smith
2. Nyquist
3. Tatar
4. Jarnkrok
5. Sheahan

6. Andersson
7. Pulkkinen
8. Jurco
9. Tvrdon
10. Sproul

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12-02-2011, 11:44 AM
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1. Smith
2. Nyquist
3. Jarnkrok
4. Tatar
5. Sheahan

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12-02-2011, 12:00 PM
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I usually don't like Europeans but I have to say

#1 Järnkrok
-----
-----
-----
-----
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Smith
Nyquist
Sheahan

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12-02-2011, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
1. Brendan Smith - He won't replace Lidstrom, nobody will though as Lidstrom is a once in a lifetime player, but he's the closest the Wings have

2. Teemu Pulkkinen - Only reason why he's so high on my list is because the lack of a pure sniper. Again, closest thing the Wings have. The thought of him on the point on the PP also makes me giddy.

3. Tomas Tatar - He's nothing but heart and hustle with tremoundous speed and forecheck and a nice shot. When the Wings were in their skid this kid is what everyone was screaming for and quite frankly I was pretty pissed he didn't get the call up before a lot of guys. My favorite prospect bv far. Tell me he doesn't WANT to be a Red Wing; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFyJkf4TtkQ

4. Calle Jarnkrok - Compared to Zetterberg and Jarnkrok said he bases his game of Hank. Enough said.

5. Gustav Nyquist - Not much to say about him that he already hasn't shown. Actions speak louder than words

Honoroble mention: Tomas Jurco. He has the skills but will it translate to the NA game? IMO it's pretty easy to be a stickhandling youtube sensation when you aren't on the ice and have guys coming at you. That aside, he still has a TON of talent and it'll be interesting to see what he does with it.
Jurco plays in the QMJHL on the smaller ice surface. He is tearing it up. He does play on maybe the most talented team and line in junior hockey but he is a part of the reason why.

Agree with your logic on Pulkkinen, that was kind of what I was after in the original post. Not just who are the pure best, but why you want the guy or think he should be protected. I really like all the Wings prospects, but it is the ones that hold special skill sets that I like. Starting to hear Pulkkinen might not translate well to the NA game also.

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12-02-2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by probertrules24 View Post
This seems to happen every year. I don't really understand it but it seems the most recent draft picks always end up being higher on peoples projections then the guys that were there the year before. I think it has something to do with hyping/hoping the new guys are going to be the real deal.

To me I would take an average season in the AHL for Tatar over Jurco lighting it up in juniors any day. This doesn't mean Jurco may not end up better but right now his value is nowhere near Tatar's in my opinion.

1. Smith
2. Nyquist
3. Tatar
4. Jarnkrok
5. Sheahan

6. Andersson
7. Pulkkinen
8. Jurco
9. Tvrdon
10. Sproul
Sometimes when you have a good number of guys with 2nd line potential (Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Pulkkinen IMO) its makes them more expendable in relation to guys with 1st line potential (Jarnkrok & Jurco IMO) regardless of how far along they are. But everyone values stuff differently so to each his/her own

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12-02-2011, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Jurco plays in the QMJHL on the smaller ice surface. He is tearing it up. He does play on maybe the most talented team and line in junior hockey but he is a part of the reason why.
I know, he's most likely going to be a very, very good hockey player. I'm just saying that everyone oogles over his stick skills and while they are good it's easy to do on a dry surface which is most of the youtube videos. I can do some of the stuff he can and I'm no NHL player, just good hands. So I guess my point is don't get caught up in all the fancy dry surface tricks because that's all they are.

Quote:
Agree with your logic on Pulkkinen, that was kind of what I was after in the original post. Not just who are the pure best, but why you want the guy or think he should be protected. I really like all the Wings prospects, but it is the ones that hold special skill sets that I like. Starting to hear Pulkkinen might not translate well to the NA game also.
Yea, people are saying he isn't the strongest skater and he's injury prone. But you don't need to be a strong skater to camp the slot all game. All I care about is that shot and if he can find the back of the net at the NHL level. If you are going to net me 50-60 goals a year I don't care how you skate. Pulkkinen can't be any worse of a skater than Hudler anyways. Uh-oh, I shouldn't have said that. Can't wait for him to make the jump to Grand Rapids and see what he can do at the AHL level.


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12-02-2011, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
I know, he's most likely going to be a very, very good hockey player. I'm just saying that everyone oogles over his stick skills and while they are good it's easy to do on a dry surface which is most of the youtube videos. I can do some of the stuff he can and I'm no NHL player, just good hands. So I guess my point is don't get caught up in all the fancy dry surface tricks because that's all they are.
Yeah I agree a lot has been made of him standing in a locker room twirling a puck around. His actual shootout moves while also slightly useless are a little better if you are dazzled by youtube stuff, at least he is on ice. My opinion on Jurco comes from watching him in actual games, I always come away impressed. I thought he was one of the best players at the Memorial Cup last year. I was hoping we would draft him before we traded back, so I might just have always like him a bit much. He is just a player the puck seems to follow, Jarnkrok is similar in that element whenever I have seen him.

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12-02-2011, 03:38 PM
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My top 5:

1.Smith
2.Nyquist
3.Jurco
4.Jarnkrok
5.Sheanen

HM: Tatar/Tvrden/Pulkkinen

I would like to see Tatar get a shot in the NHL before we trade him, he's really hot right now and if he keeps this up the rest of the year he'll be back in my top 5. I would not be opposed to trading Pulkkinen for an upgrade or anyone else in our pool.

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12-06-2011, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
People are sooooo quick to write off Tatar when he was the golden boy not so long ago.

He had a slow start but he's also playing second fiddle on the second line.
He's up to 15 points in 20 games, good for third on the team.

He's still younger than Nyquist by more than a year.

If his skating continues to develop the way it has, he's going to be a good one. Whether or not he's a good one in Detroit may be another story.
LOL. Last year, when everyone was raving about Tatar around the time of his call-up, you were poo-pooing him. Too slow and small, too weak, not enough skill. Now people are a bit down on him and you pop in to make excuses for him and say "he's going to be a good one." Nice. Always disagreeing

To me, Tatar is the same prospect now that he was a year ago. A good prospect, I like him, seems to have that x-factor that you can't teach. Some combination of passion, hockey sense, energy, a non-stop motor. A slower, more skilled version of Helm maybe. We'll see.

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12-06-2011, 02:24 AM
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LOL. Last year, when everyone was raving about Tatar around the time of his call-up, you were poo-pooing him. Too slow and small, too weak, not enough skill. Now people are a bit down on him and you pop in to make excuses for him and say "he's going to be a good one." Nice. Always disagreeing

To me, Tatar is the same prospect now that he was a year ago. A good prospect, I like him, seems to have that x-factor that you can't teach. Some combination of passion, hockey sense, energy, a non-stop motor. A slower, more skilled version of Helm maybe. We'll see.
What I saw in Tatar last year was someone whose skating didn't seem much better than Hudler's.
I saw a lot more than that in the exhibition season this year.

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12-06-2011, 02:38 AM
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What I saw in Tatar last year was someone whose skating didn't seem much better than Hudler's.
I saw a lot more than that in the exhibition season this year.
Not sure what you were watching last year, his skating was several notches better than Hudler's. The kid was playing a relatively conservative game, given his penchant for flying around, but the skating was there.

Anyway.

How would you rank our prospects given the OP's criteria?

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12-06-2011, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Not sure what you were watching last year, his skating was several notches better than Hudler's. The kid was playing a relatively conservative game, given his penchant for flying around, but the skating was there.

Anyway.

How would you rank our prospects given the OP's criteria?
In his call up last year, I didn't much jump in his skating. I saw a lot of scooby doo skating, feet moving fast but going nowhere.. That really dimmed my view of him. But this year in preseason, I saw a lot more from him, skating wise.

Most important prospects?
1) Smith
2) Sheahan (now that he's producing)
3) Jurco (Size/Skill)
4) Nyquist
5) Tatar

Jarnkrok may belong in there, but I haven't seen him at all.

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12-06-2011, 06:46 PM
  #23
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One thing I don't understand is why some people think Nyquist is easily the best forward talent of the Wings' prospects. Guys like Jarnkrok, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Jurco, and Sheahan are all 19 or 20. Nyquist is 22. Cory Emmerton and Jan Mursak are 23. What exactly did Nyquist do to set himself apart from the younger guys, or for that matter show that he was any better than the older guys?

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12-06-2011, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
One thing I don't understand is why some people think Nyquist is easily the best forward talent of the Wings' prospects. Guys like Jarnkrok, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Jurco, and Sheahan are all 19 or 20. Nyquist is 22. Cory Emmerton and Jan Mursak are 23. What exactly did Nyquist do to set himself apart from the younger guys, or for that matter show that he was any better than the older guys?
Nyquist was one of the best players in the NCAA, a Hobey Baker finalist in his sophomore and junior seasons, 144 points in 113 career games. He then came to camp this year and impressed the hell out of everyone. Then he was clearly the best prospect in the preseason. And now he's better than a point-per-game player in GR in his first year of pro hockey. No prospect you listed has a resume that matches that, and some who may seem close (Pulkkinen) do not have games that translate well to NA hockey, let alone the NHL (I don't expect Pulkkinen to make it). I think Jarnkrok has the highest upside of all our forward prospects, but he's still a ways a way and has a ton of room to slip. Tatar has been an impressive prospect but has clearly been passed. Who do you think should be ahead of Nyquist?

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12-06-2011, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
One thing I don't understand is why some people think Nyquist is easily the best forward talent of the Wings' prospects. Guys like Jarnkrok, Tatar, Pulkkinen, Jurco, and Sheahan are all 19 or 20. Nyquist is 22. Cory Emmerton and Jan Mursak are 23. What exactly did Nyquist do to set himself apart from the younger guys, or for that matter show that he was any better than the older guys?
Not only is he just as skilled as those guys (or at least close) but he is just so much closer to the NHL which makes him more of a sure thing and more valuable

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