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Old
12-05-2011, 04:41 PM
  #101
Luceni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
For all the complaining about Roy's ES performance, especially offensively (No chemistry with anyone! Breaks the flow!), here are players who've produced less on a per/60 mins of 5-on-5 play than Derek Roy (2.28 pts/60 mins ES)

N. Backstrom (2.26)
H. Sedin (2.25)
B. Richards (2.19)
J. Spezza (2.17)
M. St. Louis (2.17)
J. Benn (2.16)
T. Plekanec (2.15)
J. Tavares (2.00)
M. Richards (1.88)
M. Ribeiro (1.87)
H. Zetterberg (1.87)
R. Kesler (1.78)
M. Duchene (1.78)
Z. Parise (1.73)
I. Kovalchuk (1.72)
D. Briere (1.69)
J. Carter (1.54)
E. Staal (1.17)
P. Stastny (1.10)
M. Koivu (1.07)

I'm not saying Roy's a better hockey player than all those guys--and I fully expect a strawman coming my way that I'm arguing Derek Roy is better than some of the names on that list--merely injecting some context to make abundantly clear that how bad Roy's allegedly been has been, unsurprisingly, vastly overstated.
.......blind chicken........ corn...........

.....for sure can find a stat too which makes Ellis better than Ovechkin.....

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12-05-2011, 04:44 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
.......blind chicken........ corn...........

.....for sure can find a stat too which makes Ellis better than Ovechkin.....
Good response. I guess when one doesn't have a cogent argument, just attack the stat, right? That's pretty weak, Luceni.

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12-05-2011, 04:44 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
.......blind chicken........ corn...........

.....for sure can find a stat too which makes Ellis better than Ovechkin.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15
For all the complaining about Roy's ES performance, especially offensively (No chemistry with anyone! Breaks the flow!), here are players who've produced less on a per/60 mins of 5-on-5 play than Derek Roy (2.28 pts/60 mins ES)

N. Backstrom (2.26)
H. Sedin (2.25)
B. Richards (2.19)
J. Spezza (2.17)
M. St. Louis (2.17)
J. Benn (2.16)
T. Plekanec (2.15)
J. Tavares (2.00)
M. Richards (1.88)
M. Ribeiro (1.87)
H. Zetterberg (1.87)
R. Kesler (1.78)
M. Duchene (1.78)
Z. Parise (1.73)
I. Kovalchuk (1.72)
D. Briere (1.69)
J. Carter (1.54)
E. Staal (1.17)
P. Stastny (1.10)
M. Koivu (1.07)

I'm not saying Roy's a better hockey player than all those guys--and I fully expect a strawman coming my way that I'm arguing Derek Roy is better than some of the names on that list--merely injecting some context to make abundantly clear that how bad Roy's allegedly been has been, unsurprisingly, vastly overstated.
Boy, did you call that one, Zip

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12-05-2011, 05:24 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
.......blind chicken........ corn...........

.....for sure can find a stat too which makes Ellis better than Ovechkin.....


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12-05-2011, 10:45 PM
  #105
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I guess you're conceding on the final minutes of the Nashville game? You left that part out.

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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
After reading all your posts, I get the sense that you probably don't ever blame those two. For anything. They've both been off to nice starts. You've demonized Roy to the point where I have little doubt that you've convinced yourself that any of Vanek's poor performances have been a product of Roy's "poisoning," and through no fault of Vanek. I'm almost to the point where I"m waiting for you to blame Tommy's past poor conditioning on Roy bringing him doughnuts before every practice.
Vanek's poor performances are few and far between ever since Roy's quad injury last year. Funny how that works. Another coincidence, right?

In 2009-10, he was playing with multiple injuries for the majority of the season. That wasn't known until after the season. He had a ton of poor performances then. Could his injuries have been attributed to conditioning? Perhaps. Do you have access to that information?
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Again, why is that surprising? He's the only center who plays all three phases of the game. We have two centers (Gaustad, Roy) who've played the position more often that not in their careers. Why is it surprising that one of our two natural centers, and one who can score 70 pts/season is towards the top in TOI/G?
Again, Zip. It's not surprising. It's disappointing. He has not played well at all, aside from of about 3 or 4 games in November. Hecht has already given the Sabres 3 or 4 quality performances in only 6 games played this season. We've already covered Adam.
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Show me a definitive study or statistic that correlates hits and winning and I'll start paying more attention to hit statistics. Until then...
I'll remember you asked for that. Until then... the point wasn't about whether or not hitting the opponent more often results in winning (although, perhaps Boston believes that it does..), the point was about Lindy Ruff's go-to player, his even strength minutes leading forward, being the softest forward on the team by a longshot.

I appreciate Jason Pominville's game greatly. But when he, of all players, is out-hitting you 14 to 7 through 26 games, there is a serious problem. When Jochen Hecht of all players, returning from concussions no less, is on pace to surpass your hit total in 50% less games played, there is a serious problem. Hecht and Pominville are considered as soft as they come in the NHL. They're playing like hardened crimminals compared to Roy.
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What are Pommer's blocked shot numbers like?
He's got 14 to Roy's 16. What's your point? That Pominville hasn't dramatically helped this team more than Derek Roy has because he's happened to have 2 less shots carom off his shin pads?

You were the one gawking over Roy's "blocked" shots. Not me.

Quote:
Roy's PP pts/60 mins played: 2.74
Adam's PP pts/60 mins played: 2.29

There, we took total ice times out of the equation and Roy comes out on top in a per 60 minutes played analysis.
And? Yes, remove those silly total ice time minutes. What do they mean anyway?
Quote:
First, Adam should be getting more PP time. Take that out on Ruff, not Roy.
I have been. In every post.
Quote:
Second, Adam's 5-on-5 scoring is markedly better than every player on the team, including Vanek and Pominville. If they moved Luke back to LW--and given how poor he can be defensively and at the dot (43.9%), that may end up happening, anyways--would you advocate him getting more ESTOI than Thomas Vanek? After all, Luke's a better offensive player at 5-on-5 (based on pts/60 mins at 5-on-5), and that's what matters, right? It's hypothetical, but I'm interested in your answer.
You're asking me to compare two players that are both currently superior to Derek Roy? What's that going to accomplish to the point of the argument?
Quote:
Roy is fourth on the team in pts/60 mins played at 5-on-5. He's in a mix of four players separated by 11 seconds in ESTOI. Roy also has a far higher relative qualcomp than Luke, likely because Ruff doesn't yet trust Adam defensively at center.
Where are the statistics that backup your claim that Roy is facing a higher quality of competition? Supply them; and if he has, it's not "remarkable" information....As Ruff continues to force him into the top 6.
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Adam has great offensive splits. He also has a high amount of offensive zone starts--in your own famous words to joshjull, "What the hell are you laughing at?"--while playing with the team's two best offensive players to date. Why are you surprised he has more points?
Adam has spent far less time in the top 6. Roy has been in the top 6 for 26 games straight. You can't be serious.

Luke Adam is a 21 year old rookie. He's only dressed in 45 NHL games. Roy is a veteran of nearly 500 games with a letter stitched to his jersey and an infinite leash. He's been given the big-time minutes and the benefit of top 6 duty. If you're correct about anything regarding him, how exactly is Roy on pace for only 18 goals and 52 points?

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Second, I understand why you're attempting to draw the Roy/Adam comparison--because you believe he best demonstrates your point regarding Ruff's favoritism--but Adam isn't even playing center right now! He's playing LW on Leino's line.
Adam is proving he can play multiple forward positions at a high level. When did that become a bad thing? He can improve on his draws. Adam's a very young player. His draws and his defensive game will continue to improve.
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He may not even be a center in the long-term, which goes back to Devine's answer this past summer about what Adam's position is: "It depends on who you ask within the organization." Maybe Ruff realized that after a brief stint of success between Vanek and Pommer, Adam is better off at wing. So, again, considering he's outplayed Vanek at 5-on-5, at least offensively, do you advocate him taking Vanek's ES minutes? I'm guessing no.
Again, I'm not sure what Vanek/Adam has to do with an under-performing Derek Roy, one that is playing more often than both of them. Vanek and Adam, with the ice time they've earned, have produced and performed far better than Derek Roy.

Maybe Ruff should have left his best line alone and let Adam play through his struggles rather than cut the cord to get players like Derek Roy going. Maybe if Ruff had as much patience with Adam as he's had with Roy this season, the center position wouldn't look quite as bleak. Hell, maybe the win column would even benefit.

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Because he finally figured out that they're both playmakers and want the pucks on their sticks, so it'd be silly to put them on the same line in the long-term? And because he wants to spread out his offense and not make the lines too top-heavy? I'm sure you've thought of these answers, too, but it's just easier to look at Roy as the poison.
Ruff just figured it out? Really? It's got nothing to do with Thomas Vanek's performance without Roy last year and this year?

It's got nothing to do with which conclusion is easier to come too. It's painstakingly obvious why Vanek and Roy aren't on the same line anymore. But if you'd like to continue searching for phantom theories, rather than realize what's right in front of everyone's nose, feel free.
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I know he does. Those are his faults. Vanek frequently blows the defensive zone early trying to get a breakaway pass (see JvR's Game 6 goal as a prime example) or frequently doesn't support the breakout well enough; those are his faults. Do you see those, too? Pommer doesn't go to scoring areas when he's slumping; that's his fault. We could sit here and pick apart every player on our team.
No player is perfect. But the two you're focusing on have been two of the best players in the entire league this season.

How bout' Roy?

Quote:
But if the good outweighs the bad relative to that player's role--and I think it does with Roy--then, on the whole, I'm fine with the player.

Leino-Roy-Stafford was our best line for two weeks until Ruff broke them for the 3rd period in Montreal.
I don't remeber that line being the Sabres best line for two weeks. Is that a fact or are you guessing?

The only two week period that could be started with Philly on Nov. 2nd through the Montreal game on Nov. 14th. That's a 2 week period where Vanek had 7 points in 7 games. The same two week period where Pominville also had 7 points in 7 games.

Roy's line was better than that, huh? Impressive. Although now I know why I don't remember that. I remember Roy played his few quality games in there. I don't remember his line being our best.

Quote:
First, do you not understand the importance of offensive zone starts? You seem far too intelligent to be poo-pooing them the way you have. If you don't have to traverse nearly 200 feet before even getting near a scoring area, it's far easier to score.
It's not at all more important than powerplay minutes played or even strength minutes played.

Ask any player in the league if they think they'd produce more while playing the most powerplay and even strength minutes than any player on their team, or the other choice, play far less minutes than that guy, but having a few extra offensive zone starts than him.

Another baseless argument.

Quote:
Second, it seems your disdain for Roy is so vociferous that me convincing you of his merits is an impossibility. But your assertion that Roy doesn't belong in the top-6 is ludicrous.
Coming from someone that clearly ignores the obvious, I'll take that as a compliment.


Last edited by ShaPow: 12-05-2011 at 11:12 PM.
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Old
12-05-2011, 11:14 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
For all the complaining about Roy's ES performance, especially offensively (No chemistry with anyone! Breaks the flow!), here are players who've produced less on a per/60 mins of 5-on-5 play than Derek Roy (2.28 pts/60 mins ES)

N. Backstrom (2.26)
H. Sedin (2.25)
B. Richards (2.19)
J. Spezza (2.17)
M. St. Louis (2.17)
J. Benn (2.16)
T. Plekanec (2.15)
J. Tavares (2.00)
M. Richards (1.88)
M. Ribeiro (1.87)
H. Zetterberg (1.87)
R. Kesler (1.78)
M. Duchene (1.78)
Z. Parise (1.73)
I. Kovalchuk (1.72)
D. Briere (1.69)
J. Carter (1.54)
E. Staal (1.17)
P. Stastny (1.10)
M. Koivu (1.07)

I'm not saying Roy's a better hockey player than all those guys--and I fully expect a strawman coming my way that I'm arguing Derek Roy is better than some of the names on that list--merely injecting some context to make abundantly clear that how bad Roy's allegedly been has been, unsurprisingly, vastly overstated.
Break down the context this list injects.

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12-05-2011, 11:37 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by ShaPow View Post
What the hell are you laughing at? All of the sudden 18+ minutes a night was freed up. All of the lines had to be changed. Different players were relied upon because Roy was forcefully removed from Ruff's options. Purely coincidental is your argument.

Laugh it up.
I'm laughing at the asburdity of thinking one guy playing only 18min of a 60min game was holding back the play of guys he rarely or never played with or had little impact on their play. Guys like Miller, Myers, Ennis, Gerbe and Goose. Those were the guys that broke out of their haze and got rolling that led to our success in the 2nd half along with Vanek getting back on track with Pommer's help.

Stafford was already going good and actually had a few great games with Roy. The most notable being his hattrick against the Bruins when Roy assisted on all 3 goals.


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Originally Posted by ShaPow View Post
Vanek's role wasn't changed at all. The thorn in his side was removed. Nothing more.
The thorn in his side?

You mean his center for the most productive season of Vanek's career (06-07) when he had 43g 41a 84pts.

Or the the thorn in his side that centered him and was on the #1 PP unit with him the next 2 seasons when he scored 36g and 40g and had 64pts both years. Vanek was also one the top PP goal scorers in the NHL those years as well.


The reality is Vanek has had a lot of success with Roy as his center and working on the #1 PP unit with him.

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12-05-2011, 11:56 PM
  #108
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You're basically arguing that the changes that took place to adjust to Roy's absense couldn't take place with him in the lineup. Thats simply not true. Since everyone of them is still in play this year with Roy in the lineup. Vanek/Pommer together, Ennis/Stafford together and Gerbe/Goose together.

Btw are you actually arguing that are "struggles" (7th place is hardly struggling) are due to Roy this year? As opposed to us losing up to 9 starts at one point?

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12-06-2011, 12:13 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Btw are you actually arguing that are "struggles" (7th place is hardly struggling) are due to Roy this year? As opposed to us losing up to 9 starts at one point?
This is getting a bit off topic, but i strongly disagree with the bolded, given the makeup and sheer talent of our roster this season.

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12-06-2011, 12:25 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by RiotAct View Post
This is getting a bit off topic, but i strongly disagree with the bolded, given the makeup and sheer talent of our roster this season.
That sheer talent is not in the lineup when your missing as many players as we have the last several weeks.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-06-2011 at 01:38 AM.
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12-06-2011, 12:52 AM
  #111
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We need a big minute defensive center. I don't think Roy is crucial enough to the success of this team to be off the board for that kind of player, either.

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12-06-2011, 07:22 AM
  #112
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Shapow's fallacious arguments are seriously hilarious. That last post he didn't even argue against any of Zips points! So funny. Dude you seriously need to go research logical fallacies and change your arguments to remove them. Also you don't understand the point he made by comparing Adam and Vanek? The point is that he is comparing the same player that you compared to Roy with the best player on our team, and his stats are still stacking up well against him. Also the fact that Adam currently plays LW NOT C, which is why the comparison makes more sense then Adam vs Roy.


If you remove Roy from the equation right now our centers are:

Hecht (he is day to day so he might not be able to play)
Adam
Leino
McCormick
Ellis


With Hecht injured, and pulling Leino away from the only line he has had ANY chemistry with all season, heralding the glorious return of Leinos wonderful (/sarcasm) earlier play, which regresses him back to 4th line talent we look like this

Vanek Adam Pomminville (1-2-1)
Ennis - Leino - Stafford (2-4-4)
Gerbe - Ellis - Kassian (3 - Minors - Unknown)
Tropp - McCormick - Chewey (Top end Minors - 4th/Scratch - Minors)


That is HORRIBLE! Considering the fact that according to your "logic" Roy is a cancer and detriment to any team he is on, we probably won't get more then a pick for him (remember this is following your logic, and if you agree with those statements who would trade for roy anyways, the team would have to scratch him to keep him off the ice). Anyways seeing as we are getting only a pick at max for such a sub par player, that's what our roster looks like minus Roy. Are you trying to tell me that THAT lineup is better then what we have now? (Note: That lineup is including current injuries which is why some players are missing such as Goose, Hecht, and Boyes.)

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12-06-2011, 08:34 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm laughing at the asburdity of thinking one guy playing only 18min of a 60min game was holding back the play of guys he rarely or never played with or had little impact on their play. Guys like Miller, Myers, Ennis, Gerbe and Goose. Those were the guys that broke out of their haze and got rolling that led to our success in the 2nd half along with Vanek getting back on track with Pommer's help.

Stafford was already going good and actually had a few great games with Roy. The most notable being his hattrick against the Bruins when Roy assisted on all 3 goals.
I'm not sure why you and others keep arriving at the conclusion that I'm laying all of the organizational problems at Roy's feet. He is a big problem that this organization has. He hasn't been the only one, probably not even the biggest one. But he's a major one. I come to that conclusion by watching him play, as well as knowing how seriously he takes his role on this team.

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The thorn in his side?

You mean his center for the most productive season of Vanek's career (06-07) when he had 43g 41a 84pts.
The greatest regular season in team history, lead by Chris Drury and Danny Briere? The Sabres were as stacked at forward as any team in the league. How many Sabres had career years that year? It wasn't only Vanek. Roy wasn't a corner stone of the franchise, like he is now. He was a spoke in the wheel, playing all of the minutes that Drury and Briere weren't on the ice for. Same as Vanek. The difference between Roy and Vanek now is that Drury and Briere are gone, yet Vanek is still a major force. One of the best players in the league. He's performing at a very high level. He's carrying the offense. Roy's true colors been being exposed in their absence.

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Or the the thorn in his side that centered him and was on the #1 PP unit with him the next 2 seasons when he scored 36g and 40g and had 64pts both years. Vanek was also one the top PP goal scorers in the NHL those years as well.
Vanek has been scoring at a high level with or without Derek Roy on his line. You know this. So I'm not sure why you're trying to give Roy the accolades for Thomas Vanek's career point totals. No player in the entire NHL has more goals on the powerplay since the lockout than Thomas Vanek. It's because he's a surgeon in front of the net. Not because his linemate has been Derek Roy!

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The reality is Vanek has had a lot of success with Roy as his center and working on the #1 PP unit with him.
The reality is Vanek is the most productive powerplay forward in the entire league; with out without Derek Roy. He's proven that by now.

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12-06-2011, 08:48 AM
  #114
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While I understand Zip's argument and ShaPow's, saying Roy is not a good producer is just foolish, he is right up there with all the good centers and in terms of production is a top line center without a doubt. The problem I think many have with Roy is he seems like a selfish, arrogant, immature brat.

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12-06-2011, 08:51 AM
  #115
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ShaPow

You're basically arguing that the changes that took place to adjust to Roy's absense couldn't take place with him in the lineup. Thats simply not true. Since everyone of them is still in play this year with Roy in the lineup. Vanek/Pommer together, Ennis/Stafford together and Gerbe/Goose together.

Btw are you actually arguing that are "struggles" (7th place is hardly struggling) are due to Roy this year? As opposed to us losing up to 9 starts at one point?
Ennis has missed 17 games. He hasn't played often enough for Ruff to try him on every single line yet.

This team wasn't playing at all up to their capabilities prior to the injury bug. Do you think they were?

All of the struggles this team is having are not strictly on Derek Roy. It's the head coach more than anything. But when Derek Roy is the organization's (or the head coach's) go-to player, even while his play doesn't merit that role at all, should he not be criticized? He's a very talented player. He's got the skill. He's a solid two-way player. You really think he gives a crap about anything that's going on? Honestly? You think he deserves to be leaned on? I'd say getting out-hit by Jason Pominville and Jochen Hecht, coupled with his huge minutes and poor production and play for the bulk of 26 games argue my stance quite well.


Last edited by ShaPow: 12-06-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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12-06-2011, 09:00 AM
  #116
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Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument can be boiled down to Vanek's success with roy at center is a cooincidence and Roy is bad because he doesn't hit enough? Both are very ignorant statements....

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12-06-2011, 09:03 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
While I understand Zip's argument and ShaPow's, saying Roy is not a good producer is just foolish, he is right up there with all the good centers and in terms of production is a top line center without a doubt. The problem I think many have with Roy is he seems like a selfish, arrogant, immature brat.
He is all of those things, and this organization would be better off without him. Just like Philadelphia decided they were better off without they're top 2 centers that were also those things. Crazy, right?

Using Roy's career stats to prop up an argument that revolves around the team's performance with and without him in the lineup over the last year and a half holds no water.

People are saying I'm ignoring counter-arguments, yet no one else is doing that? I've asked plenty of questions and made plenty of points that haven't been addressed. I'd like someone to point to the counter-points I've supposedly ignored.

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12-06-2011, 09:07 AM
  #118
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You havnt replied to a single one of my posts...so yeah you are ignoring points.

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12-06-2011, 09:08 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument can be boiled down to Vanek's success with roy at center is a cooincidence and Roy is bad because he doesn't hit enough? Both are very ignorant statements....
Has Vanek performed at a very high level without Roy centering his line? Yes.

Is Roy the least physical forward on the team? Yes.

Are those points not 100% fact, HiddenInLight?

Those are not the only reasons Roy is a detriment. There's an entire thread worth of other reasons.

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12-06-2011, 09:09 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
You havnt replied to a single one of my posts...so yeah you are ignoring points.
Wait your turn. It's 1 on 3 or 4 right now.

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12-06-2011, 09:10 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by ShaPow View Post
Break down the context this list injects.
You've been complaining about Roy's ES play, particularly the amount of ES ice time he receives, despite a supposed lack of ES production. You also argue that "[Roy] has no chemistry with anyone." Yet despite how allegedly "obvious" these "facts" are to you, the numbers just don't jibe with your "facts." Roy is outproducing many very good players around the league at 5-on-5, and doing it--if one is to listen to you--completely independent of every player with whom he is on the ice. Roy's ES production is fine--actually, anything above 2.00 is considered acceptable for a top-6 player, and numbers above 2.25 are generally considered "good" by the guys at Hockey Prospectus. To give you further context, Roy's ES pts/60 min (2.28) ratio this year is only minimally different than Vanek's last season (2.36)--and, since I know you're wondering, Roy's was 2.53 last season.

You want Roy out of the top-6. Should Colorado be demoting Stastny out of theirs? He truly has pathetic ES production. What about Mikko Koivu in Minnesota? Nick Backstrom in Washington? Should John Tavares have his ES minutes cut in New York?

Regarding your Luke Adam argument, he's not even playing center right now (though we'll see if he goes back with the latest injuries). You'd give him more ES minutes than Roy at a position that he's still learning, and apparently not good enough at defensively or at draws to keep himself from getting pulled off the position--you credit that completely to Ruff favoritism, I think most of us would agree he's not a well-rounded center yet. Smells like a recipe for disaster to me, and very much a case of too much, too soon. Personally, I think Luke is a better wing than center. He can use his size on the boards and seems to play more instinctively when he isn't worrying about his defensive responsibilities at center. Still, ignoring that for a moment, Luke is scoring at an ES rate (3.28) that's absolutely unsustainable. For a frame of reference, Daniel Sedin scored at 3.02 last season, and Corey Perry scored at 2.48 at ES last season. Luke is going to regress to the mean, sadly (and that's fine, he's a rook). So pumping him out there for more ES minutes does not assure greater production.

The funny thing is, despite thousands of words and hours wasted ripping Roy, you still haven't correctly noted why Roy's production is not on pace with past years. The answer can be found with about three minutes of research, so I won't give it to you. But you're off the map if you think his ES production is the problem.

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12-06-2011, 09:23 AM
  #122
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by ShaPow View Post
Has Vanek performed at a very high level without Roy centering his line? Yes.

Is Roy the least physical forward on the team? Yes.

Are those points not 100% fact, HiddenInLight?

Those are not the only reasons Roy is a detriment. There's an entire thread worth of other reasons.

Id prefer you reply to my previous post buuuut if you want I will go deeper into a subject that I commented on in passing. Roy isn't a physical player. He isn't a power forward. In fact if you want to go by hits he's better then Henrik Sedin since he hits more.

As to vanek he's good on his own but has been better with Roy. Just going on stats there.

As to how we know that Roy plays against a higher quality of players that's obvious. Roy plays in the top two lines. Always. That means he is going to be matched up against the top two lines and top pairing dmen on opponants teams. Adam plays on the third line. So more often he is against the bottom six of the opposing teams and the bottom defensive pairings....that's just how hockey matchups work....of course there are mismatches but that's another animal.

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12-06-2011, 09:30 AM
  #123
WhoIsJimBob
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I agree that the Sabres could stand to add to their center depth.

I could live with dealing Roy if it meant the Sabres were able to get a nice bump in talent in return.

I don't believe the Sabres would improve merely by moving Roy off the roster.

The trick is that the type of player the Sabres need rarely gets moved. And I doubt the Sabres are willing to move "untouchable" assets of their own to acquire someone else's "untouchable" asset.

What would it take to get Pavelski or Couture out of SJ? A ton.

What would it take to get Hodgson out of Vancouver? Quite a bit.

Do you want to get an injured Zajac now and see if that works out down the road? Would NJ deal him for immediate help?

Have things gotten so bad in Carolina that they would consider moving Staal? Is his huge contract and poor play this season worth the gamble given that you'd have to give up a ton to get him?

Stastny is 5th in scoring on the Avs (and his 15 pts would be 5th on the Sabres) and counts $6.6M against the cap. No thank you.

Jarret Stoll isn't bringing anything offensively in LA (7 pts in 26 gp). But, he's a gritty guy that could help up the middle and is a UFA this summer. Do they rent a guy like that?

Outside of trading up at the draft, I don't know how many realistic trade options are out there right now.

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12-06-2011, 09:31 AM
  #124
ShaPow
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Shapow's fallacious arguments are seriously hilarious.
Which arguments exactly?
Quote:
That last post he didn't even argue against any of Zips points!
Which points that he asked did I not argue?
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So funny. Dude you seriously need to go research logical fallacies and change your arguments to remove them.
Huh?
Quote:
Also you don't understand the point he made by comparing Adam and Vanek? The point is that he is comparing the same player that you compared to Roy with the best player on our team, and his stats are still stacking up well against him. Also the fact that Adam currently plays LW NOT C, which is why the comparison makes more sense then Adam vs Roy.
Yes, Luke Adam should be averaging much more than 13:24 TOI/G.

More than one of the best players in the league? Now that's a silly question.

Quote:
If you remove Roy from the equation right now our centers are:

Hecht (he is day to day so he might not be able to play)
Adam
Leino
McCormick
Ellis

With Hecht injured, and pulling Leino away from the only line he has had ANY chemistry with all season, heralding the glorious return of Leinos wonderful (/sarcasm) earlier play, which regresses him back to 4th line talent we look like this

Vanek Adam Pomminville (1-2-1)
Ennis - Leino - Stafford (2-4-4)
Gerbe - Ellis - Kassian (3 - Minors - Unknown)
Tropp - McCormick - Chewey (Top end Minors - 4th/Scratch - Minors)


That is HORRIBLE! Considering the fact that according to your "logic" Roy is a cancer and detriment to any team he is on,
Let's keep it truthful...We've never seen Roy play for another team in the NHL. I haven't made that point.
Quote:
we probably won't get more then a pick for him (remember this is following your logic, and if you agree with those statements who would trade for roy anyways, the team would have to scratch him to keep him off the ice). Anyways seeing as we are getting only a pick at max for such a sub par player, that's what our roster looks like minus Roy. Are you trying to tell me that THAT lineup is better then what we have now? (Note: That lineup is including current injuries which is why some players are missing such as Goose, Hecht, and Boyes.)
You sure are making a lot of stuff up.

No wonder I haven't responded to more than two of your posts so far.

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Old
12-06-2011, 09:33 AM
  #125
Zip15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I agree that the Sabres could stand to add to their center depth.

I could live with dealing Roy if it meant the Sabres were able to get a nice bump in talent in return.

I don't believe the Sabres would improve merely by moving Roy off the roster.


The trick is that the type of player the Sabres need rarely gets moved. And I doubt the Sabres are willing to move "untouchable" assets of their own to acquire someone else's "untouchable" asset.

What would it take to get Pavelski or Couture out of SJ? A ton.

What would it take to get Hodgson out of Vancouver? Quite a bit.

Do you want to get an injured Zajac now and see if that works out down the road? Would NJ deal him for immediate help?

Have things gotten so bad in Carolina that they would consider moving Staal? Is his huge contract and poor play this season worth the gamble given that you'd have to give up a ton to get him?

Stastny is 5th in scoring on the Avs (and his 15 pts would be 5th on the Sabres) and counts $6.6M against the cap. No thank you.

Jarret Stoll isn't bringing anything offensively in LA (7 pts in 26 gp). But, he's a gritty guy that could help up the middle and is a UFA this summer. Do they rent a guy like that?

Outside of trading up at the draft, I don't know how many realistic trade options are out there right now.
I'm in 100% agreement with the bolded, JB. I'd absolutely move Roy if it brought an improvement at the center position. I do not move him just for the sake of moving him.

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