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Injury Talk 3.0: Gionta out indefinitely (bicep tear)

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Old
12-10-2011, 09:09 PM
  #351
HCH
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
I hope not Emelin, who brings something a bit different to the team than the other softer offensive-type Ds.

Subban-Gill
Emelin-Kaberle
Gorges-Campoli
Those aren't bad pairings from my point of view. Would you keep Diaz or Weber around as #7?

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12-10-2011, 09:11 PM
  #352
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Diaz is the clear #7 on this team for now.

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12-10-2011, 09:43 PM
  #353
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Gill is an elite PKer and probably the best in the NHL on 5 on 3s, but he's a role player who can see the bench depending on context. He is not a good 5 on 5 defender anymore.

For the most part Diaz should probably be the first to see the bench consistently as Campoli and Kaberle make him redundant, but one thing about actually having defensive depth is to play to your matchup.

Really no defender except Gorges has earned guaranteed minutes on this team.
I agree with you that 5 on 5 he sometimes struggles but that right there is enough to ensure he never gets benched. Special units are critically important in the NHL and he is a huge part of the reason that we're #2 or 3 in the league on the PK. Just that is is 3-4-5 more games won in this league. Just look at today late in the game for example. Who knows without Gill maybe NJ ties the game there.

Not related but does anybody know why officially Campoli didn't play tonight? Healthy scratch? Not quite ready after all despite getting the green light? Did JM talk about it at all?

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12-10-2011, 10:40 PM
  #354
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Gill has a huge roll on this team. I would be furious if he is a healthy scratch. It will be Diaz.
I know what you meant what this just made me laugh especially when I imagine him sprawled out on the ice during PK. Very unorthodox but extremely effective. But outside the PK Gill is quickly becoming a liability.

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12-10-2011, 10:49 PM
  #355
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Diaz is the clear #7 on this team for now.
Someone has to budge when Markov returns. Diaz may have to be lagered in Hamilton, along with St-Denis. The Habs will be deep at D.

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12-10-2011, 11:34 PM
  #356
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I agree with you that 5 on 5 he sometimes struggles but that right there is enough to ensure he never gets benched. Special units are critically important in the NHL and he is a huge part of the reason that we're #2 or 3 in the league on the PK. Just that is is 3-4-5 more games won in this league. Just look at today late in the game for example. Who knows without Gill maybe NJ ties the game there.

Not related but does anybody know why officially Campoli didn't play tonight? Healthy scratch? Not quite ready after all despite getting the green light? Did JM talk about it at all?
Yesterday JM said that Campoli is cleared to play, but that doesn't mean he's 'ready' to play, ready as in 'game shape'.

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12-11-2011, 12:15 AM
  #357
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any idea when campoli comes back?

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Old
12-11-2011, 01:34 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post

Conclusion:

Emelin-Subban
Kaberle-Gorges
Gill-Campoli

Put your weakest defender and guy with lowest confidence with Gorges. Play this pairing for about 20 minutes a night and use Gorges more if need be. Hide Kaberle in late stages of the game.

Put Campoli with Gill because they are both vets and should be able to work together.

Use Emelin and Subban as top pair and play them 25 minutes a night if need be.
I get the idea but as much as I like Emelin, I'm not sure he's ready just yet to face the opposing team's top guns. I'm not saying he never will be, but I like that he's gradually improving each game and I think part of it is because he's had more time to react against 2nd line match-ups.

When Markov comes back however, I wouldn't have any problem if Martin decides to put him with Emelin on the top pairing.

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12-11-2011, 03:20 AM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer77
The cumulative effect of Andrei Markov on this roster the last 3 years has become hilarious.

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Originally Posted by JC93 View Post
Trade for Schneider to shoot pucks from Markov.
Sign Spacek to shoot pucks from Markov.
Markov gets hurt, sign M-A Bergeron to replace Markov offence.
Trade for Wizniewski to replace Markov.
Sign Markov to 3 years at $5,75mil/year.
Sign Emelin to be tutored by Markov.
Sign Campoli.
Trade for Kaberle to replace Markov.
The things our management has/had to do to replace Markov is ridiculous. It would be so much easier to just cut ties with Mr.Damaged Goods/False Hope For 3 Seasons-Now-&-Still-Collecting-$5,75mil/year. Markov better help us in 2011...too late. He better help us in 2012. I won't hold my breath even though some of you Markov-lovers want me to! (he better ****ing help us in 2012).

Schneider...we gave a 2nd Rnd Pick?
M-A Bergeron...3rd or 4th Rnd Pick?
Wisniewski...2nd or 3rd Rnd Pick?
Campoli...at least we didn't give any Draft picks! (I like this).
Kaberle...at least we didn't give up any Draft Picks!! (I like this).


Kaberle/Campoli - Subban
Campoli/Kaberle - Gorges
Markov (healthy...I must be dreaming) - Emelin
-------------- ---------------
Gill (PK specialist)
Diaz
St-Denis (I trust him way more than Weber on defense)
Weber (trade bait? needs to learn ''intro to d-man defense 101'')


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 12-11-2011 at 06:09 AM.
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Old
12-11-2011, 11:09 AM
  #360
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i see diaz sitting for the next game. mostly since we would already have a good number of puck-moves and not a lot of rough d-man

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Old
12-11-2011, 02:28 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer77
The cumulative effect of Andrei Markov on this roster the last 3 years has become hilarious.



The things our management has/had to do to replace Markov is ridiculous. It would be so much easier to just cut ties with Mr.Damaged Goods/False Hope For 3 Seasons-Now-&-Still-Collecting-$5,75mil/year. Markov better help us in 2011...too late. He better help us in 2012. I won't hold my breath even though some of you Markov-lovers want me to! (he better ****ing help us in 2012).

Schneider...we gave a 2nd Rnd Pick?
M-A Bergeron...3rd or 4th Rnd Pick?
Wisniewski...2nd or 3rd Rnd Pick?
Campoli...at least we didn't give any Draft picks! (I like this).
Kaberle...at least we didn't give up any Draft Picks!! (I like this).


Kaberle/Campoli - Subban
Campoli/Kaberle - Gorges
Markov (healthy...I must be dreaming) - Emelin
-------------- ---------------
Gill (PK specialist)
Diaz
St-Denis (I trust him way more than Weber on defense)
Weber (trade bait? needs to learn ''intro to d-man defense 101'')
What the hell are you talking about?

Schneider trade was a result of not having a triggerman on the PP due to letting Mark Streit walk. Has nothing to do with Andrei Markov.

Spacek signing was an effort to replace Schneider's shot, and add a serviceable Top-4 defenseman. He was a UFA signing, Markov has nothing to do with Spacek.

Marc-Andre Bergeron was signed as a free-agent. He didn't cost us a pick, and he was at a rock bottom price. He was a solid pick up for what he was at that time. Markov did not detriment the team what so ever here.

Wisniewski? Sure, we gave up a 2nd round pick. Big deal.

Campoli -> UFA signing

Kaberle straight up trade for Spacek.

Markov's total detriment to the team over the last 3 years is ONE second round draft pick. We all get that you hate Andrei Markov, but maybe you should look at things objectively and think a little before you post that kind of thoughtless garbage.

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Old
12-11-2011, 02:39 PM
  #362
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What the hell are you talking about?

Schneider trade was a result of not having a triggerman on the PP due to letting Mark Streit walk. Has nothing to do with Andrei Markov.

Spacek signing was an effort to replace Schneider's shot, and add a serviceable Top-4 defenseman. He was a UFA signing, Markov has nothing to do with Spacek.

Marc-Andre Bergeron was signed as a free-agent. He didn't cost us a pick, and he was at a rock bottom price. He was a solid pick up for what he was at that time. Markov did not detriment the team what so ever here.

Wisniewski? Sure, we gave up a 2nd round pick. Big deal.

Campoli -> UFA signing

Kaberle straight up trade for Spacek.

Markov's total detriment to the team over the last 3 years is ONE second round draft pick. We all get that you hate Andrei Markov, but maybe you should look at things objectively and think a little before you post that kind of thoughtless garbage.
ya giving up that 2nd for james isn't such a bad thing
seeing how he helped our powerplay
The Schneider trade brought life to the PP which couldn't do anything really

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Old
12-11-2011, 03:10 PM
  #363
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Those of you who are criticizing Campoli should understand that he is a very good bottom pairing defender when he has a stay at home with him. Let us review our defenders:

Subban: Two way defender and can play both stay at home or puck rusher

Diaz: More of a puck moving defender than anything, but relatively solid in his own zone. NOT physical.

Campoli: Pure puck rushing defenseman who can play average defense. Excellent wheels, vision and shot.

Gill: shutdown defender who is complimentary to any puck rusher

Kaberle: Puck rushing defenseman who should have enough experience to play in his own zone. Should not be relied upon to anchor a pairing any longer. Great at breakouts once he has the puck.

Emelin: Similar to Subban insofar in that he is a complete defender and has all the tools. Should be regarded at this time as a stay at home defenseman on this team

Gorges: The ideal defensive defense man. This guy is simply a warrior and in my opinion our most stable defender right now.

Weber: Not great at any one facet at this time. A solid guy to set up for a one timer on a second powerplay unit. Not in the top six right now.

Conclusion:

Emelin-Subban
Kaberle-Gorges
Gill-Campoli

Put your weakest defender and guy with lowest confidence with Gorges. Play this pairing for about 20 minutes a night and use Gorges more if need be. Hide Kaberle in late stages of the game.

Put Campoli with Gill because they are both vets and should be able to work together.

Use Emelin and Subban as top pair and play them 25 minutes a night if need be.
Excellent analysis. Optimal pairings in my view as well.

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Old
12-11-2011, 03:14 PM
  #364
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I think many of you are underestimating Emelin's new found composure. Having a pairing of Emelin and Subban is so dynamic. These two can skate circles around opponents and each can jump into the play without worrying about getting back. This is a pairing which teams will be afraid to play against because in one sense they can get slammed by Emelin, and in another, they can get burned if they forecheck too liberally.

Trust me, this pairing can play 25 mins a night.

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12-11-2011, 03:21 PM
  #365
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I get the idea but as much as I like Emelin, I'm not sure he's ready just yet to face the opposing team's top guns. I'm not saying he never will be, but I like that he's gradually improving each game and I think part of it is because he's had more time to react against 2nd line match-ups.

When Markov comes back however, I wouldn't have any problem if Martin decides to put him with Emelin on the top pairing.
Ask Krejci (or other victims) if he's ready. If Emelin isn't ready, which Hab Dmen are? I've noticed that some forwards avoid coming down on his side.

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12-11-2011, 03:21 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Rise from the Ashes View Post
I think many of you are underestimating Emelin's new found composure. Having a pairing of Emelin and Subban is so dynamic. These two can skate circles around opponents and each can jump into the play without worrying about getting back. This is a pairing which teams will be afraid to play against because in one sense they can get slammed by Emelin, and in another, they can get burned if they forecheck too liberally.

Trust me, this pairing can play 25 mins a night.
The only reason I would hesitate is that essentially you'd have a rookie with a sophomore as a top pairing. Also, Subban's already carrying the workload although having Gorges on the right makes everything so much easier.

It could very well be too early for Emelin to carry that kind of responsibility and workload and Subban's effectiveness may drop as a result of being taken away from Gorges.

Worth a gamble though.

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Old
12-11-2011, 03:55 PM
  #367
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I get the idea but as much as I like Emelin, I'm not sure he's ready just yet to face the opposing team's top guns. I'm not saying he never will be, but I like that he's gradually improving each game and I think part of it is because he's had more time to react against 2nd line match-ups.

When Markov comes back however, I wouldn't have any problem if Martin decides to put him with Emelin on the top pairing.
If Markov comes back he will likely no longer be worthy of playing in the top pair. I see him being more of a bottom pairing pp specialist. Essentially a Kaberle clone.

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12-11-2011, 04:04 PM
  #368
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If Markov comes back he will likely no longer be worthy of playing in the top pair. I see him being more of a bottom pairing pp specialist. Essentially a Kaberle clone.
lol wow...

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12-11-2011, 04:14 PM
  #369
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I love it how hated MAB was on these boards but things have changed. The guy brought excellent value to this team and ran the pp like a clock for almost nothing yet people blamed him for the coach overusing him.

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12-11-2011, 05:50 PM
  #370
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If Markov comes back he will likely no longer be worthy of playing in the top pair. I see him being more of a bottom pairing pp specialist. Essentially a Kaberle clone.
Ummm what ? He had a knee injury. He didn't get a lobatomy....

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12-11-2011, 06:15 PM
  #371
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If Markov comes back he will likely no longer be worthy of playing in the top pair. I see him being more of a bottom pairing pp specialist. Essentially a Kaberle clone.
When Markov comes back he will obviously need time to return to form both physically and mentally, but if he stays healthy there is no way that he is a "bottom pairing PP specialist". Markovs most dominant trait was his vision, and that is something that does not regress with age like physical traits do. I would imagine that after 20 games or so he'd return to being our best D-man, or at least compete for that title.

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12-11-2011, 06:30 PM
  #372
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Markovs most dominant trait was his vision, and that is something that does not regress with age like physical traits do.
Example: Lidstrom

Again, vision was his best asset during his Norris days, which went well past Markov's current age.

Of course, Markov is a step down from Lidstrom, just saying that I agree that guys who rely on vision rather than overwhelming physical skills CAN play well long into their 30s.

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Old
12-11-2011, 11:52 PM
  #373
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What the hell are you talking about?
Schneider trade was a result of not having a triggerman on the PP due to letting Mark Streit walk. Has nothing to do with Andrei Markov.
Spacek signing was an effort to replace Schneider's shot, and add a serviceable Top-4 defenseman. He was a UFA signing, Markov has nothing to do with Spacek.
Marc-Andre Bergeron was signed as a free-agent. He didn't cost us a pick, and he was at a rock bottom price. He was a solid pick up for what he was at that time. Markov did not detriment the team what so ever here.
Wisniewski? Sure, we gave up a 2nd round pick. Big deal.
Campoli -> UFA signing
Kaberle straight up trade for Spacek.
Markov's total detriment to the team over the last 3 years is ONE second round draft pick. We all get that you hate Andrei Markov, but maybe you should look at things objectively and think a little before you post that kind of thoughtless garbage.
Eh siboire de colinne de bean! (JGRB is angry).

Hate Markov? I despise his long absence...season after season. This I hate. I have no patience for players who are injured season after season ESPECIALLY when given huge contracts.

I don't hate the healthy-Markov-in-regular-season...I hate that he didn't give a discount to our Habs and never EVER plays...never, season after season (going on 3 seasons now). This I hate.

Markov has done ZERO for our Habs in playoffs (when it counts the most). When he was at his best and fully healthy in playoffs...he was still invisible. No one argues this...he is a ZERO in playoffs. Gorges and Subban have done much much more in such little time for our Habs. Excuse me if I don't want to wait for
Mr.Damaged Goods/Mr.Sunshine anymore. Waiting for this kind of injury prone dman pisses me off. When are we going to realize...it's time to move on without him. Markov is gonna do rehab again and again to collect his $5,75mil/year...do we have to wait for this season after season? That is all that's happening...he's just collecting the $5,75mil/year (and not helping our Habs). I'd love to see Markov on another team...he will do nothing in playoffs besides getting injured again and again. Give the damaged-goods/headache to another team.
End of January...let's make a bet they will say February and then...another setback. More frustrating patience.

This season is his last chance in my opinion...if he can't help our Habs he better retire and free up that money for another dman...(ex: a Suter?). Of course Markov won't retire 'cause he wants to make as much $$$$ while he can (as if he didn't make enough money in the last 10 years).


p.s.: Eller is not a thug! What an insult to Eller! Why is it everytime we have a young star someone feels the need to dress him up like a pimp or a gangster rapper? (ex: Eller and Pleks).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 12-12-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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Old
12-12-2011, 12:59 AM
  #374
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If
Markov comes back he will likely no longer be worthy of playing in the top pair. I see him being more of a bottom pairing pp specialist. Essentially a Kaberle clone.

Give him the ''softest'' 5 on 5 minutes (12 to 15min/game) and all the PP minutes his extremely-fragile body can handle. Soft minutes meaning...
no Lucic, no Cooke, no E.Staal, no Tootoo, heck...even no Grabovski! (he badly injured Markov once with a small check). Soft minutes...why? to preserve Markov's extra fragile body from another injury...saving him mostly for our PowerPlays.

I want Markov to regain his top pairing status, but...making sure he stays healthy is #1 for me. Let's see if he can play 10-20 games without falling down to injury again. It would be natural/smart for Markov to get bottom pairing minutes since Markov has not really played in almost 3 seasons now *long sigh* and also to protect him from injury (or at least try!). To expect him to get 21 to 24minutes/game after only 20-30 games, well...you're also asking for another injury since his body is as fragile as a wine glass. I'd use him like baseball's designated hitter...a PP specialist so as to preserve his easy-target-fragile body from the Lucics, Cookes, E.Staals, Tootoos...leave all that hard work to our Subban, Gorges and Emelin (especially when Emelin improves his positioning in our D-zone, ex: taking his man instead of looking at the puck carrier).

Big Question:
Can Markov ever play 10-20 games again without getting another part of his body injured/re-injured? (groin area/jaw/eye/shoulder/arm/wrist/ankle/ribs/lower back/leg/again with the knee, etc... which one will it be next time? knock on wood...again and again).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 12-12-2011 at 02:10 AM.
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12-12-2011, 01:02 AM
  #375
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Did Markov run over your dog or something?

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