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McDonagh vs Subban

View Poll Results: Who would you rather have in your top four?
P.K. Subban 229 42.25%
Ryan McDonagh 313 57.75%
Voters: 542. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-25-2012, 01:08 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
McD for me. Subban has shown he can be a bad teammate, putting his fingers in players mouths, taking dumb penalties, etc. He is a good young player though. I would say both of them are 2nd pairing dmen and in that role, I prefer what McDonagh brings. What a horrible trade by Gauthier
This sounds rather clueless. McD and Subban are as much 2nd pairing as Karlsson is a "defensive liability", i.e. misinformed claims.

Also, could you please expand on Subban putting his fingers in other players' mouth? I certainly don't remember that, I think you're referring to Burrows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
For those saying Subban is miles ahead of McDonagh offensively:

Ryan McDonagh: 25 Even Strength Points
PK Subban: 26 Even Strength Points

Now keep in mind McDonagh doesn't get powerplay time.

McDonagh is one of the best skaters in the league, anchoring the defense on the best team in the league, is a great locker-room character by all accounts, and doesn't take stupid penalties.

McDonagh.
The EV point argument is quite weak in my opinion. It kind of reminds me of Leafs fans constantly defending Schenn's offensive upside because of all that non-existent PP TOI.

If McD doesn't get that PP time, it's because there are better options out there, unless you think Tortorella is out to lunch (and I think most NYR fans are quite pleased with his coaching this year). The NYR are far better than the Habs this year, but even on the Habs McD would get 2nd wave PP time at best.

I other words, the fact Subban has more pts on the PP should not be an argument laid against him, quite the contrary actually.

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03-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by theboss View Post
Where is my love for PK?
Well you bashing McDonagh on here shows you are siding with PK. It's not that big of a deal if you ask me and I think ATM they are pretty similar in worth to their teams. McDonagh will be on the next US olympic team for sure and I believe PK repped Canada in World Juniors before if I remember correctly.

WAY too early to say who will be better in the long run but me being a St. Paul, MN. rep and having probably a bit more knowledge on McDonagh since he went to Cretin and my HS used to play them quite a bit and still does in all sports, I am hoping he is way better.

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03-25-2012, 01:44 PM
  #253
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McDonagh. I dont want my players to get hurt while fighting during practice.

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03-25-2012, 01:58 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
This sounds rather clueless. McD and Subban are as much 2nd pairing as Karlsson is a "defensive liability", i.e. misinformed claims.

Also, could you please expand on Subban putting his fingers in other players' mouth? I certainly don't remember that, I think you're referring to Burrows.



The EV point argument is quite weak in my opinion. It kind of reminds me of Leafs fans constantly defending Schenn's offensive upside because of all that non-existent PP TOI.

If McD doesn't get that PP time, it's because there are better options out there, unless you think Tortorella is out to lunch (and I think most NYR fans are quite pleased with his coaching this year). The NYR are far better than the Habs this year, but even on the Habs McD would get 2nd wave PP time at best.

I other words, the fact Subban has more pts on the PP should not be an argument laid against him, quite the contrary actually.
If there's one thing Ranger fans hate about Torts is the way he manages the PP. We're one of the worst teams in the league with the man advantage.

And yes, he has Brad Richards ahead of him at the QB position. Subban wouldn't start over Richards either. So it's a flawed argument from your perspective.

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03-25-2012, 02:05 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
This sounds rather clueless. McD and Subban are as much 2nd pairing as Karlsson is a "defensive liability", i.e. misinformed claims.

Also, could you please expand on Subban putting his fingers in other players' mouth? I certainly don't remember that, I think you're referring to Burrows.



The EV point argument is quite weak in my opinion. It kind of reminds me of Leafs fans constantly defending Schenn's offensive upside because of all that non-existent PP TOI.

If McD doesn't get that PP time, it's because there are better options out there, unless you think Tortorella is out to lunch (and I think most NYR fans are quite pleased with his coaching this year). The NYR are far better than the Habs this year, but even on the Habs McD would get 2nd wave PP time at best.

I other words, the fact Subban has more pts on the PP should not be an argument laid against him, quite the contrary actually.
I think the post was trying to show that McD's offense is underrated, not saying Subban's was over rated. The fact that NYR have other better options on the PP doesn't take away from McD's offensive abilities.

The Schenn comparison is ridiculous btw, one player is 9th in the league in Even strength pts, the other is 37th. Out of Curiosity, if the Even strength pts/gm argument is weak, how do you explain the discrepancy?

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03-25-2012, 02:16 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
If there's one thing Ranger fans hate about Torts is the way he manages the PP. We're one of the worst teams in the league with the man advantage.

And yes, he has Brad Richards ahead of him at the QB position. Subban wouldn't start over Richards either. So it's a flawed argument from your perspective.
Who says Cunneyworth/Martin would have Richards play as the QB? You say that you guys criticize Torts for his PP strategy because it's not clicking, yet you assume Subban would be the victim of the same mismanagement? He is one of the few bright spots on another lacklustre PP unit. Whether he would get the same usage under Torts is moot, because McD wouldn't force him out of the first wave if he were still a Hab.

The fact remains Subban has higher offensive upside than McD, and that's why he gets more PP time. This is not a knock on McD who has other aspects of his game superior to Subban. It's as if you NYR fans, who are very fortunate to be on the winning side of a landslide steal, are looking for even more reasons to gloat over that trade and argue that McD is clear-cut superior over the Habs' most "elite" skater.

Nobody replied to my previous comment on how one would prefer Suter over Weber or inversely. I still think it's a decent way to evaluate the discrepancy between both players, without having to rely on putting down one player or the other.

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03-25-2012, 02:24 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
I think the post was trying to show that McD's offense is underrated, not saying Subban's was over rated. The fact that NYR have other better options on the PP doesn't take away from McD's offensive abilities.

The Schenn comparison is ridiculous btw, one player is 9th in the league in Even strength pts, the other is 37th. Out of Curiosity, if the Even strength pts/gm argument is weak, how do you explain the discrepancy?
I'm sure you have better reading skills than that: I was merely pointing out the familiarity with the EV point production argument that Leafs fans have been using a lot with Schenn, I wasn't even close to isolate and compare both players' offensive upside.

And as for your first paragraph, I'm not trying to say McD doesn't have offensive abilities. I know he does, I've been following him closely ever since he got drafted in late June 2007. All I'm saying is that it's not on a level that would push Subban aside from the 1st wave were he still a Hab.

But aside from the Subban vs McD debate, why on earth isn't McD playing more minutes on your 2nd wave? I also see him as more offensively gifted than Girardi, so why isn't Torts able to see that? Seeing you guys are 29th on that front, shouldn't your coach try mixing things up a bit and give his young stud a chance to man up the point on the 2nd wave?

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03-25-2012, 07:56 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
I'm sure you have better reading skills than that: I was merely pointing out the familiarity with the EV point production argument that Leafs fans have been using a lot with Schenn, I wasn't even close to isolate and compare both players' offensive upside.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, the argument when applied to Schenn lacks quite a bit, but when you consider McD is top 10 in even strength points among D-men and first on his team, it's fair to say he may have some untapped potential that could be seen on the PP. I wasn't trying to suggest you were comparing the 2 players.

Quote:
And as for your first paragraph, I'm not trying to say McD doesn't have offensive abilities. I know he does, I've been following him closely ever since he got drafted in late June 2007. All I'm saying is that it's not on a level that would push Subban aside from the 1st wave were he still a Hab.
Subban is certainly the more offensive of the 2 and would more then likely still hold the 1st unit PP place between the two. I don't think anyone should try to argue otherwise. I think the original argument was was that their offensive numbers would certainly be less of a gap should he given some pp time.

I'm still curious why you feel the even strength argument holds little water, I've always thought that the best players are able to produce at even strength and PP production is more of a team systems issue.

Quote:
But aside from the Subban vs McD debate, why on earth isn't McD playing more minutes on your 2nd wave? I also see him as more offensively gifted than Girardi, so why isn't Torts able to see that? Seeing you guys are 29th on that front, shouldn't your coach try mixing things up a bit and give his young stud a chance to man up the point on the 2nd wave?
Couldn't tell you, I'm not a fan of either team, just like both players.

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Old
03-25-2012, 09:31 PM
  #259
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McDonagh for sure.

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03-25-2012, 11:51 PM
  #260
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As much as I dont like Subban I cant believe he isnt winning this

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03-26-2012, 12:17 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by wKetch22 View Post
As much as I dont like Subban I cant believe he isnt winning this
An inanimate carbon rod would win a poll against Subban in these parts.

What's funny is that Subban put up a better season now than last year plus being a proven playoff performer. but because the team is picking in the lottery, the argument is being used against him as it's somehow his fault. And after about a year of decent regular season play, McDonagh has somehow leapfrogged him in the eyes of Rangers fans.

I have to agree right now with whoever said that they are just rubbing in the Gomez trade.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 03-26-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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Old
03-26-2012, 07:13 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
McD for me. Subban has shown he can be a bad teammate, putting his fingers in players mouths, taking dumb penalties, etc. He is a good young player though. I would say both of them are 2nd pairing dmen and in that role, I prefer what McDonagh brings. What a horrible trade by Gauthier
Gainey made the trade.

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03-26-2012, 07:15 AM
  #263
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I just wish we still had both. FU Gainey.

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03-26-2012, 07:26 AM
  #264
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Isles fan picking McD. Love this guy's game. He's really calm and smooth in his own end. Very poised for a kid his age. If his offensive game comes around he will be something special.

Can't believe the Rags got him for Gomez... what a steal.

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03-26-2012, 10:33 AM
  #265
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Depends on what type of d-man your team needs, but personally I prefer Subban. He's already solid in his defensive play, and despite struggling to score goals this year, he's still an integral part of the Habs offence from the d-corps.

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03-26-2012, 11:01 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
But aside from the Subban vs McD debate, why on earth isn't McD playing more minutes on your 2nd wave? I also see him as more offensively gifted than Girardi, so why isn't Torts able to see that? Seeing you guys are 29th on that front, shouldn't your coach try mixing things up a bit and give his young stud a chance to man up the point on the 2nd wave?
I think Torts realizes that the minutes McDonagh is playing are high enough as it is for a 22 year old. He needs him more for PK/ES time. Although, another reason is Girardi is a RH d-man and McD is a lefty.

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03-26-2012, 12:12 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Sorry if I wasn't clear, the argument when applied to Schenn lacks quite a bit, but when you consider McD is top 10 in even strength points among D-men and first on his team, it's fair to say he may have some untapped potential that could be seen on the PP. I wasn't trying to suggest you were comparing the 2 players.

Subban is certainly the more offensive of the 2 and would more then likely still hold the 1st unit PP place between the two. I don't think anyone should try to argue otherwise. I think the original argument was was that their offensive numbers would certainly be less of a gap should he given some pp time.

I'm still curious why you feel the even strength argument holds little water, I've always thought that the best players are able to produce at even strength and PP production is more of a team systems issue.

Couldn't tell you, I'm not a fan of either team, just like both players.
I got lost in my replies. I thought you were a NYR fan but indeed, nothing in your previous response implies that whatsoever.

Even strength production is important, but it also is very reflective of the team's overall success in a given year. At least more than special units performance, which relies more on the actual players on ice and the coaching strategy rather than the entire team's ability to generate/annihilate offence. So I guess I'm seeing things a bit different than you on that front.

Having said that, I don't want to downplay the fact McD has that many pts at ES, but it still makes little sense to me that he doesn't get more PP recognition if he's got that much untapped offensive upside (see my other response below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
I think Torts realizes that the minutes McDonagh is playing are high enough as it is for a 22 year old. He needs him more for PK/ES time. Although, another reason is Girardi is a RH d-man and McD is a lefty.
Makes sense. But still, if McD has untapped potential manning the point, they still should use him and adjust his ES/PK time accordingly. 2nd wave PP in a normal game doesn't get you much more than 2-3 additional minutes on ice. If his presence on the PP can get you a few more goals in the long run, a good coach like Torts should be able to find ways to swap these 2-3 minutes with his ES/PK time on ice.

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03-26-2012, 01:08 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
McDonagh AINEC. A bit behind offensively, but miles ahead defensively.
Agreed 100%. Give me the defense man who 6th amongst defense men in +/- with a +24, can effectively shut down the other teams top unit night in and night out playing 25-26 minutes a night, and inject offense into the line up when necessary. Also, a far more disciplined and composed player.

For me, people voting Subban (and I've seen plenty of both) don't see enough of McDonagh. The kid is an absolute stud on the blue line.

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03-26-2012, 01:10 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Based off of overall NHL accomplishments and current calibre, McDonagh.

Subban is something special, though, as is McDonagh, but Subban has that game-changing ability that McD does not. PK could easily become a 60-70 point defenseman that is above average defensively, while McDonagh will probably be a 35-40 point elite shutdown defensive.
I think McDonagh has a ton of offensive potential. He shows flashes of brilliance on the ice. Beyond that, he is one of the best skating defense men in the NHL. I think McDonagh will peak around 40-50 points per season while being an elite shut down defense man.

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03-26-2012, 02:13 PM
  #270
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Agreed 100%. Give me the defense man who 6th amongst defense men in +/- with a +24, can effectively shut down the other teams top unit night in and night out playing 25-26 minutes a night, and inject offense into the line up when necessary. Also, a far more disciplined and composed player.

For me, people voting Subban (and I've seen plenty of both) don't see enough of McDonagh. The kid is an absolute stud on the blue line.
This sounds exactly like Subban to me, but I would remove the "when necessary" as Subban is as effective generating offence as he is shutting down the other teams' bests while agitating and giving a physical presence from the back end.

And as for the +/- argument, who says Subban wouldn't also be in the +20's if he was playing on this year's best Eastern team?

Subban's game is more complex than McD's. It will take another few years for it to all come together, but once it happens, I think he will be a good step above the former Canadiens' prospect (who I also love BTW).

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03-26-2012, 04:29 PM
  #271
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Let's see how the playoffs go. Subban has 26 playoff games already under his belt, and McDonagh is a rookie, people need to chill out.

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03-26-2012, 05:18 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
If there's one thing Ranger fans hate about Torts is the way he manages the PP. We're one of the worst teams in the league with the man advantage.

And yes, he has Brad Richards ahead of him at the QB position. Subban wouldn't start over Richards either. So it's a flawed argument from your perspective.
I beg to differ...

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03-26-2012, 08:50 PM
  #273
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This sounds exactly like Subban to me, but I would remove the "when necessary" as Subban is as effective generating offence as he is shutting down the other teams' bests while agitating and giving a physical presence from the back end.

And as for the +/- argument, who says Subban wouldn't also be in the +20's if he was playing on this year's best Eastern team?

Subban's game is more complex than McD's. It will take another few years for it to all come together, but once it happens, I think he will be a good step above the former Canadiens' prospect (who I also love BTW).
It's fun to play "what if" but McDonagh is actually doing it. It's hard to dispute a +24 as a defense man who plays 25-26 minutes a night against the other teams top forwards.

No one here is disputing that Subban is better offensively. Although this season, it isn't by much. A mere 8 points separate the two. But the differential in defense is astronomical in my opinion.

One of the biggest reasons the NYR's defense has been as strong as it has been through sections of the year is primarily because of the Girardi/McDonagh pairing. McDonagh has played a significant role in the Rangers tentative first place position.

I know MTL fans might be bitter because McDonagh was acquired for Gomez, but to compare the two defensively just doesn't make sense to me. McDonagh's game is vastly under appreciated on the forum. There are few 20-22 year old defense men that I'd take over McDonagh at this point, and Subban isn't one of them.

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03-26-2012, 09:35 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by wKetch22 View Post
As much as I dont like Subban I cant believe he isnt winning this
Yeah hard to believe that a top pairing D-man on the #3 defensive team in the league is winning against against a D-man on the 17th best defensive team in the league.

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03-26-2012, 09:42 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Agreed 100%. Give me the defense man who 6th amongst defense men in +/- with a +24, can effectively shut down the other teams top unit night in and night out playing 25-26 minutes a night, and inject offense into the line up when necessary. Also, a far more disciplined and composed player.

For me, people voting Subban (and I've seen plenty of both) don't see enough of McDonagh. The kid is an absolute stud on the blue line.
This. McD is one of the most underrated defensemen in the league. If you read the top 5 D-men under the age of 25 thread, MDZ is included and McDonagh isn't and most people agree that MDZ should be in that list. Most fans of other teams think that MDZ is better than McDonagh because he's flashier. I think McD if he ever improves his shot will be a very good two way D-man. He's already pretty damn good at even strength offensively. The guy has very good offensive instincts. Anyway, so as I was saying if you think MDZ is better than McD, then I can understand why people would be shocked that McD is winning this poll.

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