HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

McDonagh vs Subban

View Poll Results: Who would you rather have in your top four?
P.K. Subban 229 42.25%
Ryan McDonagh 313 57.75%
Voters: 542. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-29-2012, 02:08 PM
  #401
GWOW
Two Pucks, One Cup
 
GWOW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 15,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
What I see in this thread is a huge love letter from NYR fans to their beloved young D-stud. This fine, I have no issue with this whatsoever other than I'd wish he was still on our team.

The problem rather resides in the NYR fans' appraisal of Subban's game, which I'm sorry to say, but just proves how little you guys have watched him.



You seriously need to start watching some Habs games on a regular basis if you want to have any sort of credibility when describing Subban's game.
He's changed his game a little. Congrats to him for finally focusing on defense. It's probably the first time he's done so. Either Subban woke up on his own or Martin made him wake up

Macdonagh has played this way his entire career. He did it as a rookie and he's doing it even better as a sophomore.

There was never a moment where Macdonagh was told or asked to "focus on defense". It's a natural skill.

Subban is not better defensively than Macdonagh. Enough already.

GWOW is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 02:34 PM
  #402
poetryinmotion
Registered User
 
poetryinmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
He's changed his game a little. Congrats to him for finally focusing on defense. It's probably the first time he's done so. Either Subban woke up on his own or Martin made him wake up

Macdonagh has played this way his entire career. He did it as a rookie and he's doing it even better as a sophomore.

There was never a moment where Macdonagh was told or asked to "focus on defense". It's a natural skill.

Subban is not better defensively than Macdonagh. Enough already.
This is like watching a trainwreck happen.

Please, continue

poetryinmotion is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 03:21 PM
  #403
Levitate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,985
vCash: 500
Just to make Habs fans hate me, I think they sometimes do overrate Subban a bit because of the tools he has and the potential people see in him because of those tools.

If he really applied them all and became a hard hitting, hard shooting, point scoring defenseman who didn't get caught up ice and played great defense in his own end, then he'd be one of the best defensemen in the NHL. I think that's what Habs fans see Subban's potential being, and they're probably not wrong about that. But realistically he isn't there yet and realistically he may never get there.

What I do see is people taking that potential and acting like he already has reached that, or is 100% certain to reach it. I guess that's not really unusual on hfboards and I'm sure Rangers fans do it as well, but it's basically what turns these threads into monkey's throwing feces at each other.

Neither of these guys has reached their potential yet, neither of them are 100% sure things to reach it. At their absolute best, Subban could indeed be better than McDonagh, but it's unknown whether one or both of them will reach that.

And for the record, while I don't think McDonagh will ever quite have the offensive flair Subban has, he has been showing a lot lately in terms of using his speed to contribute to the offense, making some great passes, and puck handling in the offensive zone to buy himself time and create shooting lanes

He's been doing stuff like this a lot more lately and getting results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubJvXDzrwxU

(without hurting himself, though it's funny to watch in retrospect)

I really think, though they are different players in terms of style, they are very similar in terms of value and potential

I also might like Subban more than other Rangers fans, I dunno, he's got a lot of skill and plays an exciting game. I just wish he'd stop slew footing people

Levitate is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 03:41 PM
  #404
Clipitar
Registered User
 
Clipitar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Just to make Habs fans hate me, I think they sometimes do overrate Subban a bit because of the tools he has and the potential people see in him because of those tools.

If he really applied them all and became a hard hitting, hard shooting, point scoring defenseman who didn't get caught up ice and played great defense in his own end, then he'd be one of the best defensemen in the NHL. I think that's what Habs fans see Subban's potential being, and they're probably not wrong about that. But realistically he isn't there yet and realistically he may never get there.

What I do see is people taking that potential and acting like he already has reached that, or is 100% certain to reach it. I guess that's not really unusual on hfboards and I'm sure Rangers fans do it as well, but it's basically what turns these threads into monkey's throwing feces at each other.

Neither of these guys has reached their potential yet, neither of them are 100% sure things to reach it. At their absolute best, Subban could indeed be better than McDonagh, but it's unknown whether one or both of them will reach that.

And for the record, while I don't think McDonagh will ever quite have the offensive flair Subban has, he has been showing a lot lately in terms of using his speed to contribute to the offense, making some great passes, and puck handling in the offensive zone to buy himself time and create shooting lanes

He's been doing stuff like this a lot more lately and getting results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubJvXDzrwxU

(without hurting himself, though it's funny to watch in retrospect)

I really think, though they are different players in terms of style, they are very similar in terms of value and potential

I also might like Subban more than other Rangers fans, I dunno, he's got a lot of skill and plays an exciting game. I just wish he'd stop slew footing people
Maybe that's because you actually watch him play rather than just spew some rehashed non-sense like some of your peers are doing here.

I agree about the slewfooting, but he sure isn't the only guy who's doing it in the NHL and he doesn't do it very often. For some reason, everyone focuses on him doing that, which is a testament of how people like to negatively focus on him. Still hope he stops doing it, because there won't be any valid reasons to cry about him anymore.

Last thing, while I agree most Habs fans are thinking upside rather than solely focus on his current play when appraising Subban's game, the thing is, he's actually showing proofs not only glimpses that this elite upside is something very real and reachable in the near future. Doesn't mean he'll reach it for sure, as McD might never be more than a 30-pt defence-first guy. But I'd put my money on both thoroughbreds ending up the way our fan bases expect them to become. And in that wishful scenario, I take Subban 10 times out of 10 over McD, though McD's game "simpler" game makes him more likely to fulfill his potential.

Clipitar is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 05:01 PM
  #405
habscup
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
He's changed his game a little. Congrats to him for finally focusing on defense. It's probably the first time he's done so. Either Subban woke up on his own or Martin made him wake up

Macdonagh has played this way his entire career. He did it as a rookie and he's doing it even better as a sophomore.

There was never a moment where Macdonagh was told or asked to "focus on defense". It's a natural skill.

Subban is not better defensively than Macdonagh. Enough already.
wah wah wah

Subban is great defensively, dont know about Mcdo.

habscup is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 05:05 PM
  #406
Machinehead
Moderator
TG15:WoodlandCritter
 
Machinehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York New York
Country: United States
Posts: 36,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habscup View Post
wah wah wah

Subban is great defensively, dont know about Mcdo.
McDonagh is Norris caliber defensively.

Machinehead is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 05:08 PM
  #407
habscup
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
McDonagh is Norris caliber defensively.
So why is he never mentionned in the norris talk.

habscup is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 05:10 PM
  #408
E Nixson
Powered by Intel
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 909
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habscup View Post
So why is he never mentionned in the norris talk.
If seniority and putting up big offensive numbers were less of a factor, then he probably would be in the discussion, IMO. Besides, I don't think you'll hear any Rangers fans argue that he deserves it over the likes of Karlsson/Lidstrom etc.

PK is a great defender in his own right and will probably be in the Norris discussion as well in the near future.

E Nixson is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 08:45 PM
  #409
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
You're describing Subban at his best. He hasn't been at his best this season, which is why I said what I said. Subban hits hard, can skate, can shoot and create offense. I got it. This season, he's taken a step back. He's not an offensive force on the blue line. He's certainly not an offensive force at ES.

Statistically, Macdonagh is light years ahead of Subban from a defensive standpoint, as the stats clearly indicate

Offensively, they are very close statistically, as proven with, yup you guessed it...stats.

Subban migh have "game-breaking abilities", but this season, how many times has been a game breaker? Stats say otherwise.
I'm sorry to say that if that's what you believe, you're dead wrong but it's not unusual when someone uses only stats to determine the skills and/or usefulness of players.

This season, Subban did NOT take a step back. However, some people might have forgotten how young he is for a defenseman and may have put some unrealistic expectations on the kid, which doesn't mean that down the line, he won't reach them.

What you conveniently forget to mention (likely because there's not "stats" about it), is that the Habs didn't have a Roman Hamrlik and a James Wizniewski on the team to bring in some much needed veteran presence for Subban, especially without Markov, like he had last year. While Emelin and Diaz have potential, they are rookies who were learning the NHL and its schedule.

Subban has been, with Josh Gorges, the go-to guys in Montreal this season and no, they didn't have the support that McDonagh has had. If you don't believe it, you can look at the stats...

Habsterix* is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 08:48 PM
  #410
Pi
Registered User
 
Pi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,116
vCash: 500
Quite easily Subban for me. He had a rough start but it's not like the Habs team was playing good that time either, he really stepped his game up in the last 40-45 games or so.

I'd also take him above McD because he can piss people off and take them off their game and it's frustrating to watch when he's not on your team but I bet fans of any team in the league would support Subban if he was on their team.

Pi is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 11:37 PM
  #411
SnowblindNYR
Registered User
 
SnowblindNYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 17,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Like Mike Green?
If you think McDonagh is the defensive equivalent of Mike Green, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know about Norris quality and all but I'm confident in saying that McDonagh is one of the best in the league defensively.

SnowblindNYR is offline  
Old
03-29-2012, 11:39 PM
  #412
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 500
Can't find the stat for it, but the Rangers have an absurd winning rate with McDonagh in the lineup.

Kershaw is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 12:33 AM
  #413
poetryinmotion
Registered User
 
poetryinmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Can't find the stat for it, but the Rangers have an absurd winning rate with McDonagh in the lineup.
The two are not related, we already covered this in the thread. Just like it's not Subban's fault Montreal is this bad, quite the contrary, he's ruining the Tank with his awesome play.

poetryinmotion is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 06:54 AM
  #414
Levitate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
What you conveniently forget to mention (likely because there's not "stats" about it), is that the Habs didn't have a Roman Hamrlik and a James Wizniewski on the team to bring in some much needed veteran presence for Subban, especially without Markov, like he had last year. While Emelin and Diaz have potential, they are rookies who were learning the NHL and its schedule.

Subban has been, with Josh Gorges, the go-to guys in Montreal this season and no, they didn't have the support that McDonagh has had. If you don't believe it, you can look at the stats...
Yeah McDonagh did have the 27 year old veteran Girardi who has never had to be the go to leader on defense before now, and Del Zotto and Stralman also had his back

No, I do get what you're saying and yeah in general the Rangers are much more structured and support each other better and that helps all of the players in general. McDonagh has really stepped up on his own though and become a leader in his own way, but pairing him with Girardi is excellent because it's giving McDonagh room to expand his offensive game without hurting his defense.

Pretty sure both teams would rather keep their current players and they're both great so no real problem there

Now watch McDonagh and the Rangers struggle tonight and everyone jump into this thread to point it out

Levitate is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 02:09 PM
  #415
Ghetto Sangria
The implication
 
Ghetto Sangria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,044
vCash: 500
McDonagh is a top defensive defenseman this season, and habs fans are just upset that their GM trading him for less than nothing (could you blame us).

But its ridiculous to see how little credit PK Subban gets. A lot of people hate Milan Lucic, but they still respect his skill. PK Subban is a pest, but should be acknowledged for his overall talent. While he may not be as good as mcdonagh Defensively, he is very solid in his own end playing against the best (like McDonagh). He can lay out some game changing hits, moves the puck with elite speed and skill, and has a blast from the point that will be harnessed sooner than later.

Right now I`d say McDonagh is the better defenseman, however, they are a different breed of D-men and the results might (or might not) be different next season.

Ghetto Sangria is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 02:57 PM
  #416
Fataldogg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
McDonagh is a top defensive defenseman this season, and habs fans are just upset that their GM trading him for less than nothing (could you blame us).

But its ridiculous to see how little credit PK Subban gets. A lot of people hate Milan Lucic, but they still respect his skill. PK Subban is a pest, but should be acknowledged for his overall talent. While he may not be as good as mcdonagh Defensively, he is very solid in his own end playing against the best (like McDonagh). He can lay out some game changing hits, moves the puck with elite speed and skill, and has a blast from the point that will be harnessed sooner than later.

Right now I`d say McDonagh is the better defenseman, however, they are a different breed of D-men and the results might (or might not) be different next season.
PK is getting plenty of recognition. He has obtained 47% of the votes. It's not as if McDonagh is crushing him in the poll.

Offensively, right now, PK is more gifted. Right now, however, I don't think the difference is substantial. PK has 35 points. McDonagh has 30 points. Yet, the PK advocates are stating he is the clear cut choice on the offensive side of the puck.

I look to the +/-, a stat indicative of their play because they each get a ton of ice time, and McDonagh is a +27 and is just as much of a factor in the Rangers being 1st in the conference as Girardi.

And I don't know how myself claiming McDonagh could be a perennial "40-50 point shutdown defense man" was an outlandish claim. I genuinely found that laughable. For a defense man, at 22, who has 30 points already, it is "outlandish" to think he can be a 40-50 point defense man. That one really had me scratching my head.

Again, in my opinion, PK is a solid defense man with a ton of offensive upside. But I just don't think he is on the level of McDonagh defensively. McDonagh has faced the top competition 25+ minutes a night and is still a +27 while potting 30 points. I think that speaks volumes to his play. And it's not like he is just on the ice while Gaborik is scoring a bunch of goals. Gaborik is rarely on the ice against the other teams top forwards (he normally faces the other teams checking line). McDonagh is doing it by putting up quality even strength minutes. Period.

Fataldogg is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 03:06 PM
  #417
Puckface NYR*
R.I.P. Boogyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Long Island
Posts: 8,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
McDonagh is a top defensive defenseman this season, and habs fans are just upset that their GM trading him for less than nothing (could you blame us).

But its ridiculous to see how little credit PK Subban gets. A lot of people hate Milan Lucic, but they still respect his skill. PK Subban is a pest, but should be acknowledged for his overall talent. While he may not be as good as mcdonagh Defensively, he is very solid in his own end playing against the best (like McDonagh). He can lay out some game changing hits, moves the puck with elite speed and skill, and has a blast from the point that will be harnessed sooner than later.

Right now I`d say McDonagh is the better defenseman, however, they are a different breed of D-men and the results might (or might not) be different next season.
Unbiased and spot on opinion.

Puckface NYR* is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 03:09 PM
  #418
swiftwin
#lalala
 
swiftwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,096
vCash: 500
I'm really not sold on Subban. I really think he's going to follow a Phaneuf type of career progression.

He relies too much on his incredible athletic ability, and his skills, but he doesn't have any hockey sense or vision. Much like Phaneuf. That's why he hasn't progressed as much his season. He might become a bit better in the coming years, but you won't see any kind of massive breakout from him.

swiftwin is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 03:36 PM
  #419
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,272
vCash: 256
Subban is really underrated by some when it comes to defensive hockey. Sure he isn't Lidstrom but the kid has been playing great defensive hockey in his career so far and people just think he is an offensive defenseman. Leads most night in ice time, had to take over the #1 role with Markov out, came in 2 years ago in the playoffs and was huge, the guy needs to mature a bit, but the skills offensively and defensively are there. Don't let the hate blind you

Habs 4 Life is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 03:55 PM
  #420
Habsawce
Registered User
 
Habsawce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 13,471
vCash: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
I'm really not sold on Subban. I really think he's going to follow a Phaneuf type of career progression.

He relies too much on his incredible athletic ability, and his skills, but he doesn't have any hockey sense or vision. Much like Phaneuf. That's why he hasn't progressed as much his season. He might become a bit better in the coming years, but you won't see any kind of massive breakout from him.
You'll never see P.K. Subban on a youtube video drunk at a bar singing karaoke. Instead he'll be doing 2 a days all off-season to get stronger and faster. The drive P.K. appears to have will seperate him from Phaneuf and 90% of the players in the league.

You can have all the skill in the world but without the will and drive it won't amount to much. And P.K. has that 10 fold.

Habsawce is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 04:13 PM
  #421
KingWantsCup
Super Saiyan Hank
 
KingWantsCup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,396
vCash: 350
When McD has his breakout year he's going to blow Subban out of the water.

KingWantsCup is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 04:36 PM
  #422
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
When McD has his breakout year he's going to blow Subban out of the water.
Is Subban allowed to have a breakout year?

Watsatheo is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 04:48 PM
  #423
SERE 24
LGR
 
SERE 24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 9,841
vCash: 500
McDonagh is probably the Rangers best defenseman. Controversial statement today, but I would be willing to bet that by the end of next season more and more Rangers fans start to agree. Girardi is the picture of consistency but McD has more tools, is more naturally gifted and is DEFINITELY still getting better. I love PK Subban - easily my favorite Hab, even though I complain about him making some borderline decisions every now and then - but there is no shot he is better DEFENSIVELY than McDonagh.

McD blocks more shots, has played a little more physical this year, has a stellar +/- in both his seasons and has only 5 less points than Subban this year, despite the fact that Subban gets tons of PP time and McD gets very little. McD is an absolute stud and those statistics barely tell 1/4 of the story. When you watch him, his awareness and poise is scary and he is truly just a monster. I love Subban; I'm expecting big things out of him and I love his swagger.

In the end though, they're both going to be "two-way" defenders, but Subban's strength will be in offense while McD's will be in defense (IMO). The difference, however, is going to be that even without PP time, McD will come much closer to matching Subban's offense than PK will come to matching McD's defense (in their primes - my opinion).

SERE 24 is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 05:54 PM
  #424
habscup
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
McDonagh is probably the Rangers best defenseman. Controversial statement today, but I would be willing to bet that by the end of next season more and more Rangers fans start to agree. Girardi is the picture of consistency but McD has more tools, is more naturally gifted and is DEFINITELY still getting better. I love PK Subban - easily my favorite Hab, even though I complain about him making some borderline decisions every now and then - but there is no shot he is better DEFENSIVELY than McDonagh.

McD blocks more shots, has played a little more physical this year, has a stellar +/- in both his seasons and has only 5 less points than Subban this year, despite the fact that Subban gets tons of PP time and McD gets very little. McD is an absolute stud and those statistics barely tell 1/4 of the story. When you watch him, his awareness and poise is scary and he is truly just a monster. I love Subban; I'm expecting big things out of him and I love his swagger.

In the end though, they're both going to be "two-way" defenders, but Subban's strength will be in offense while McD's will be in defense (IMO). The difference, however, is going to be that even without PP time, McD will come much closer to matching Subban's offense than PK will come to matching McD's defense (in their primes - my opinion).
You are underrating Subban's defense way too much, its incredible.

habscup is offline  
Old
03-30-2012, 06:42 PM
  #425
SERE 24
LGR
 
SERE 24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 9,841
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habscup View Post
You are underrating Subban's defense way too much, its incredible.
No, I'm just confident that McDonagh's defense is even better. I'm a fan of Subban. McDonagh is going to be one of the best defensive d-men in the league while still putting up 30-40 points without significant PP time. Subban's D is good. It's not on McD's level. That's not meant to discount Subban. McD is just that good.

SERE 24 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.