Price is better than Lundqvist
Eller is better than Hagelin
Subban is better than McDonagh
The 'better' players are in last place, so I don't care
Correct on 3 of 4 statements. Other than price being better than lundqvist(could be but time will tell) I would take the other 2 habs players mentioned over the rangers. Don't bother mentioning I'm a homer because I don't think what I said was unfair.
From what I've seen when my teams played Montreal and New york, I'd take McDonagh. Subban looked really lazy in the defensive zone, constantly missing assignments and has poor stickwork.. it looks like he floats around trying to read the play but he's not very good at it.
From what I've seen when my teams played Montreal and New york, I'd take McDonagh. Subban looked really lazy in the defensive zone, constantly missing assignments and has poor stickwork.. it looks like he floats around trying to read the play but he's not very good at it.
I have no idea which player you just described but it's not Subban.
A whole 58 more minutes over 72 games played, nice strawman argument.
It's a fact that unfortunately you'll deny.
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Nowhere near much better, but slightly better, yeah I can live with that. It's the only thing he does better than Subban who's defensive game you are underrating.
No, not slightly. If you want to look at on-ice play, McDonagh has been on for less goals against than Subban. He's never out of position, unlike Subban who does take the risks on plays that usually backfire on him. So no, Subban isn't even remotely close to being as good as McDonagh defensively this season.
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I can say with conviction that this is definitely not true, Subban is miles better offensively than McD.
This is simply not true. Miles ahead is definitely stretching it. I think arguments can go both ways actually for determining the better offensive talent. If you go only by point totals, Subban has done better, but he's also been put into an environment where he's capable putting up points.
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Yeah, this never happened. Good hyperbole though.
Not as huge of a stretch as you may think. Give me the character guy over the player who's gotten a bad reputation around the league and has even fought with his own coaches/teammates. It's a no-brainer, really.
Where did I deny it, lol? I even SAID he played a WHOLE 58 mins more over a 1,800 minute season. So, really? That's not something I would use as an argument.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
No, not slightly. If you want to look at on-ice play, McDonagh has been on for less goals against than Subban. He's never out of position, unlike Subban who does take the risks on plays that usually backfire on him. So no, Subban isn't even remotely close to being as good as McDonagh defensively this season.
Here you go exaggerating again. First of all, taking risks is what Subban does, he's a puck carrying offensive defenseman. It's why he's such a threat when he rushes the puck up the ice. McD is a stay at home type, hence why he is usually in the right position, not always like you said.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
This is simply not true. Miles ahead is definitely stretching it. I think arguments can go both ways actually for determining the better offensive talent. If you go only by point totals, Subban has done better, but he's also been put into an environment where he's capable putting up points.
You simply cannot argue that it goes both ways, no way. Subban isn't in an environment where he's capable of putting up points, are you kidding me? We're a bottom feeder and a one line team with the LAST powerplay in the league. Jokes right? :S
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
Not as huge of a stretch as you may think. Give me the character guy over the player who's gotten a bad reputation around the league and has even fought with his own coaches/teammates. It's a no-brainer, really.
McD doesn't have any more character than Subban, that's just simply your own opinion. Subban carried this team defensively on his back for two years now, he's alone out there doing everything for us. And where do you get that he has a bad reputation around the league? I'd like to see a player poll on that. Teams hate to play against him because he is a pest, an element lacking in McD's game.
As for the fighting with the coaches and players. You make it sound like he's some sort of outcast or something to suit your argument. No one on this team dislikes Subban, he plays hard in practice just like he does in games. Always on.
So really, you see, it's not such a no-brainer. The only good argument in the Ranger's fans arsenal was that PK had been offensively slumping (along with the rest of the team and our non functioning PP) and it made McD look a little better since aparently it degraded him down to his level, but not anymore, Subban zoomed by him and left him in the dust. And ps, if I could undo the Gomez trade, or just take McD back on the team, I would in a heartbeat.
Exactly. He may struggle a bit early in the season. But he is solid as a rock on defense now. People should watch how Subban plays now before making comments like he is not good on defense.
He's not rock solid defensively. He still gets out of position sometimes. Josh Gorges has been excellent in covering most of his mistakes. What a beast against Ottawa last Friday.
It depends on your preference really. They are very close... I went with McD because P.K.'s attitude pisses me off. I don't, however, blame the Habs' fans for liking it though.
He's not rock solid defensively. He still gets out of position sometimes. Josh Gorges has been excellent in covering most of his mistakes. What a beast against Ottawa last Friday.
It depends on your preference really. They are very close... I went with McD because P.K.'s attitude pisses me off. I don't, however, blame the Habs' fans for liking it though.
Sums up this thread in a nutshell.
Last edited by poetryinmotion: 03-20-2012 at 07:23 PM.
Where did I deny it, lol? I even SAID he played a WHOLE 58 mins more over a 1,800 minute season. So, really? That's not something I would use as an argument. .
Ok. Glad we got that cleared up. McDonagh munches up more minutes than Subban A fact.
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Here you go exaggerating again. First of all, taking risks is what Subban does, he's a puck carrying offensive defenseman. It's why he's such a threat when he rushes the puck up the ice. McD is a stay at home type, hence why he is usually in the right position, not always like you said. .
McDonagh is a shutdown guy that's true and his game is to first of all shutdown opposing teams top lines and he's done a great job at it. But I see much more potential with McDonagh since his skating attributes is probably one of the best in the league and his passing is shockingly accurate. McDonagh may not do end-to-end rushes, however he does pinch a lot when the puck is hemmed in the opposing zone to create chances. The beauty about his game is that he can take these chances offensively without being burned since he's just so quick at getting back into position.
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You simply cannot argue that it goes both ways, no way. Subban isn't in an environment where he's capable of putting up points, are you kidding me? We're a bottom feeder and a one line team with the LAST powerplay in the league. Jokes right? :S.
No, it's not a joke. Subban gets gobs of PP time on a bottom-feeder team while McDonagh's minutes are used to play defense. Compare the PPTOI with the two players, Subban has almost 3 more TOI/PG than McDonagh. It's not as huge of a stretch as you may think.
Compare the ESP:
McDonagh: 25 Points
Subban: 19 Points
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McD doesn't have any more character than Subban, that's just simply your own opinion. Subban carried this team defensively on his back for two years now, he's alone out there doing everything for us. And where do you get that he has a bad reputation around the league? I'd like to see a player poll on that. Teams hate to play against him because he is a pest, an element lacking in McD's game. .
Mike Richards comments for one. I like Subban's style of play and I love what he brings as an agitator. However, there has been a lot of controversy surrounding Subban by the media. I think that's fairly concerning if you're affiliated with the team.
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As for the fighting with the coaches and players. You make it sound like he's some sort of outcast or something to suit your argument. No one on this team dislikes Subban, he plays hard in practice just like he does in games. Always on. .
But I never said that. Facts are facts, you can sugarcoat it all you want. He was in altercations with coaches and players in the past and that's a red flag to his reputation.
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So really, you see, it's not such a no-brainer. The only good argument in the Ranger's fans arsenal was that PK had been offensively slumping (along with the rest of the team and our non functioning PP) and it made McD look a little better since aparently it degraded him down to his level, but not anymore, Subban zoomed by him and left him in the dust. And ps, if I could undo the Gomez trade, or just take McD back on the team, I would in a heartbeat.
It's close, only Habs fans seem to think otherwise. You're probably the same homer fan who was buying into the Gomez trade when it was made.
No we can also make the argument that McDonagh has elevated his play to the point where he's one of the top heavily relied upon skaters on the current best team in the East. McDonagh's been better than Subban this year, not even a debate.
Ok. Glad we got that cleared up. McDonagh munches up more minutes than Subban A fact.
Yeah, splitting hairs doesn't make you look desperate at all.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
McDonagh is a shutdown guy that's true and his game is to first of all shutdown opposing teams top lines and he's done a great job at it. But I see much more potential with McDonagh since his skating attributes is probably one of the best in the league and his passing is shockingly accurate. McDonagh may not do end-to-end rushes, however he does pinch a lot when the puck is hemmed in the opposing zone to create chances. The beauty about his game is that he can take these chances offensively without being burned since he's just so quick at getting back into position.
Oh please, Subban doesn't get burned. I'd like to know what you're basing this on. Also, he's is as good if not a better skater than McDonagh. I don't really know why you're trying to pimp his offensive stats. At the end of the day Subban will always have more points than him in a season. Forget about comparing their offensive games.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
No, it's not a joke. Subban gets gobs of PP time on a bottom-feeder team while McDonagh's minutes are used to play defense. Compare the PPTOI with the two players, Subban has almost 3 more TOI/PG than McDonagh. It's not as huge of a stretch as you may think.
Compare the ESP:
McDonagh: 25 Points
Subban: 19 Points
How hard is it to understand, that Montreal's powerplay was dead last for the majority of the season and he wasn't even used on it properly, our first wave for half the year was Spacek/Weber then Kaberle/Weber (**** you Martin/RC ) and by the look of it yours is actually second to last so would it have made any sort of difference if McD's was on it? That and the fact that we are a one line team and have been all year? Try putting some context into those numbers. Again, there's no way you can make me believe that this is somehow close.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
Mike Richards comments for one. I like Subban's style of play and I love what he brings as an agitator. However, there has been a lot of controversy surrounding Subban by the media. I think that's fairly concerning if you're affiliated with the team.
Subban made Richards his ***** and then Richards whined to the media in the post-game interviews. Great example! If the same thing happened tomorrow, Richards would shut his mouth, bend over, and take it knowing the type of "established" player and known quantity Subban is now.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
But I never said that. Facts are facts, you can sugarcoat it all you want. He was in altercations with coaches and players in the past and that's a red flag to his reputation.
There is absolutely no red flag pertaining to his reputation. This is all media/fan fabricated.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
It's close, only Habs fans seem to think otherwise. You're probably the same homer fan who was buying into the Gomez trade when it was made.
They are close everywhere except for offensive output, physicality, and potential. So really not that close. Subban is simply in a tier above because he brings more to a team.
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Originally Posted by Kershaw
No we can also make the argument that McDonagh has elevated his play to the point where he's one of the top heavily relied upon skaters on the current best team in the East. McDonagh's been better than Subban this year, not even a debate.
Okay now you're overrating him. Girardi does all the heavy lifting on his pairing and I'd argue that even Del Zotto is a more important defenseman for the Rangers seeing as how he started to play well defensively and carries the load offensively for your defense. And that's only on the defensive side, on offense Gaborik, Richards and Callahan are all more heavily relied on than McDonagh.
You're convinced though that he's been better this season and I don't seem to be able to change your mind seeing as how I'm talking to a homer, so I'll stop trying. Ending your posts with "not even a debate" is cool, dude. Cause, like, your opinion is the shiznit, right?
Well it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
Girardi is your #1 defenseman, don't even try to spin that differently. Earlier in the season (said in this thread even I believe if you look at the earlier pages) your fanbase pretended like he was a shoe-in for Norris consideration much like Ottawa is doing with Karlsson this year.
Price is better than Lundqvist
Eller is better than Hagelin
Subban is better than McDonagh
The 'better' players are in last place, so I don't care
The only players here that directly have any impact on where their team is in the standings are the goalies, as Lundqvist is easily the best in the league this year.
You guys have one of the best balanced defenses out there, when Subban and Gorges aren't out there we have such winners as Campoli, Kaberle and until recently, the corpse of Hal Gill.
You can't seriously believe Eller and Hagelin are the reasons their respective teams are first and last respectively in the east.
Girardi is your #1 defenseman, don't even try to spin that differently. Earlier in the season (said in this thread even I believe if you look at the earlier pages) your fanbase pretended like he was a shoe-in for Norris consideration much like Ottawa is doing with Karlsson this year.
Girardi is #1 solely because of age.
Through the year, McDonagh has learned an unbelievable amount from G, and is becoming better than him in many aspects.
Girardi is #1 solely because of age.
Through the year, McDonagh has learned an unbelievable amount from G, and is becoming better than him in many aspects.
Fair enough. But Girardi "did" the heavy lifting for the majority of this season. So the point stands. It's nice to hear that he quietly emerged though.
Yeah, splitting hairs doesn't make you look desperate at all.
Facts ≠ Splitting Hairs. Got it.
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Oh please, Subban doesn't get burned. I'd like to know what you're basing this on. Also, he's is as good if not a better skater than McDonagh. I don't really know why you're trying to pimp his offensive stats. At the end of the day Subban will always have more points than him in a season. Forget about comparing their offensive games.
I'm basing it on the fact that he was struggling earlier in the year. He wasn't getting 'burnt' per say, but he was turning the puck over quite a bit which led to high quality chances the other way.
Subban is not a better skater than McDonagh. McDonagh has a much better skating stride than Subban. It takes him 2, maybe 3 skating strides to get back into position. That's why he can log all those minutes without looking fatigued on the ice.
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How hard is it to understand, that Montreal's powerplay was dead last for the majority of the season and he wasn't even used on it properly, our first wave for half the year was Spacek/Weber then Kaberle/Weber (**** you Martin/RC ) and by the look of it yours is actually second to last so would it have made any sort of difference if McD's was on it? That and the fact that we are a one line team and have been all year? Try putting some context into those numbers. Again, there's no way you can make me believe that this is somehow close.
Yes it would've. Our powerplay is very unique. All we do is give the puck to Gaborik and he dumps in and chases after the puck on his own. Giving a guy like McDonagh those minutes to rush the puck to the other end would benefit our powerplay more than Girardi and Stralman trying to rush the puck up the ice. Their offense is close between the two, Subban has the better slap shot, McDonagh the better passer and smarter player.
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Subban made Richards his ***** and then Richards whined to the media in the post-game interviews. Great example! If the same thing happened tomorrow, Richards would shut his mouth, bend over, and take it knowing the type of "established" player and known quantity Subban is now.
Cool story. Fact is, if another team's captain is calling you out it simply doesn't look good on a player's resume.
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There is absolutely no red flag pertaining to his reputation. This is all media/fan fabricated.
Have you ever thought that Subban must've done something to earn this reputation?
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They are close everywhere except for offensive output, physicality, and potential. So really not that close. Subban is simply in a tier above because he brings more to a team.
Keep telling yourself that.
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Okay now you're overrating him. Girardi does all the heavy lifting on his pairing and I'd argue that even Del Zotto is a more important defenseman for the Rangers seeing as how he started to play well defensively and carries the load offensively for your defense. And that's only on the defensive side, on offense Gaborik, Richards and Callahan are all more heavily relied on than McDonagh.
You clearly do not watch the Rangers. Wow Del Zotto more important McDonagh. You're credibility goes to zero with that. Girardi is a great player, but when these two are paired together, they are both equally as good in what they do. Girardi does more heavy lifting short handed while McDonagh is better even strength.
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You're convinced though that he's been better this season and I don't seem to be able to change your mind seeing as how I'm talking to a homer, so I'll stop trying. Ending your posts with "not even a debate" is cool, dude. Cause, like, your opinion is the shiznit, right?
Statistics tell the story. On-ice play tells the story. Sorry you can't accept reality.
McDonagh's been better this year, could go either way in the future.
) and by the look of it yours is actually second to last so would it have made any sort of difference if McD's was on it? That and the fact that we are a one line team and have been all year? Try putting some context into those numbers. Again, there's no way you can make me believe that this is somehow close.
You're credibility goes to zero with that. Girardi is a great player, but when these two are paired together, they are both equally as good in what they do. Girardi does more heavy lifting short handed while McDonagh is better even strength.
