HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Hockey Fights
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Hockey Fights Discuss and rate hockey fights and fighters of today and from the past. Videos welcome!

Punched Out: The Life and Death of a Hockey Enforcer

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-04-2011, 12:32 AM
  #1
jaems
Registered User
 
jaems's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,330
vCash: 500
Punched Out: The Life and Death of a Hockey Enforcer

Video produced by the NYTimes. The next parts of it are being released in the next few days.

'Derek Boogaard fought his way to center ice as one of the N.H.L's most feared fighters. But the role exposed Boogaard to repeated head trauma, chronic pain and a deadly drug addiction.'

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ard-video.html

jaems is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 12:49 AM
  #2
samwitch
Registered User
 
samwitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,692
vCash: 500
Wow, I want to see the next parts to this. Very interesting and eye-opening.

samwitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 01:14 AM
  #3
Shellz
Registered User
 
Shellz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 17,337
vCash: 500
It really is eye opening. Very tough to listen and watch.

Shellz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 01:41 PM
  #4
smon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,016
vCash: 500
The unfortunate part of this is that a similar story at least in terms of addiction unfolded with the late John Kordic in the late 80's and 90's.

He had a major drug problem and his body just gave out after he was fighting with police after being arrested. For Kordic, apparently a big thing was not being able to be a full-time player, which his father wanted him to do, aside from a fighter/enforcer. And even back then the Times, I read this on their site, did a feature; Don Cherry talked about he hated to see guys just stuck on the bench not playing and then unleashed to cause havoc like they were in his words, dogs not people.

Now obviously many things were different between the two, but it's sad to see that drug addiction remains a problem and perhaps particularly so for certain types of players.

smon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 01:56 PM
  #5
Evil Ted
Registered User
 
Evil Ted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,685
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
Now obviously many things were different between the two, but it's sad to see that drug addiction remains a problem and perhaps particularly so for certain types of players.
Or just certain types of people in general substance abuse targets people from all walks of life they all struggle with the same problem, star players in the NHL have had problems with drugs and alchohol too not just enforcers, Theo Fleury and Kevin Stevens come to mind right away for me.

Evil Ted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 02:43 PM
  #6
stingo
Registered User
 
stingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Thailand
Posts: 6,311
vCash: 50
Thanks for posting this. Interesting. Can't wait to see parts 2 & 3.


Last edited by stingo: 12-04-2011 at 03:00 PM.
stingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 02:52 PM
  #7
bleedteal12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland
Country: United States
Posts: 2,066
vCash: 500
Quote:
"I don't know if it's worth it. It wasn't for me."
Powerful stuff. Hard to watch, but insightful.

bleedteal12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 04:55 PM
  #8
smon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Ted View Post
Or just certain types of people in general substance abuse targets people from all walks of life they all struggle with the same problem, star players in the NHL have had problems with drugs and alchohol too not just enforcers, Theo Fleury and Kevin Stevens come to mind right away for me.
Yeah, I'm fully aware of that. Perhaps people read too much into whether they were fighters.

It was the same when Belak died. Just looking at their role and the fact that many of them really are nicer than average guys off the ice, were skilled players at other levels and then play a few minutes a night just to fight and get injured often, people start connecting the dots. You can't help but think that it is mentally draining doing what they do and whether that would have some effect. But quite obviously there any many fighters who do not have depression or substance abuse issues, so maybe it is completely offbase.

It's a tough question.

smon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 05:24 PM
  #9
Quadruple Dion
Registered User
 
Quadruple Dion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sp...pagewanted=all
Have no idea if these things remain available indefinitely, but the corresponding article with lots of accompanying media - including 16 pp. of notes he took about his childhood, etc. - are available too.

Quadruple Dion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 05:50 PM
  #10
Minnesota
Global Moderator
L'Étoile du Nord
 
Minnesota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Country: United States
Posts: 22,492
vCash: 50
Sad to see what these guys have to sacrifice in order to reach their dreams.

Truly shows that there is a 'dark side' to professional sports behind all the business and commercialism.

Minnesota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 06:25 PM
  #11
MetalheadPenguinsFan
Disco Is Dead!!!
 
MetalheadPenguinsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,069
vCash: 50
Thread about it here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1046415

Maybe the two threads can be merged?

MetalheadPenguinsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 06:33 PM
  #12
Laus723
#CatsAreComing
 
Laus723's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 27,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
Sad to see what these guys have to sacrifice in order to reach their dreams.

Truly shows that there is a 'dark side' to professional sports behind all the business and commercialism.
There's a "dark side" for every type of player, not just the enforcer role.

I thought the video was very well done and I'm looking forward to the other two, I just hope they don't vilify the role. I know it's not an easy job, but there's plenty of enforcers who've had terrific careers and lives post hockey.

Laus723 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 09:27 AM
  #13
Invictus146
Registered User
 
Invictus146's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Punched Out: The Life and Death of a Hockey Enforcer - Derek Boogaard

Hope this posting is not inappropriate/redundant - but for those who have not seen this series I wanted to bring attention to a fantastic series in the NYTimes.

Titled Punched Out - it chronicles the life of Derek Boogaard. Personally have found it very interesting (and well written), offering fascinating insight into the world/subculture of enforcers. Given the recent rash of tragedy/controversy surrounding this role, I definitely think it's worth a look. Note that each article is several pages long and is part of a three-part series.

Part 1: Learning to Brawl
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sp...rawl.html?_r=1

Part 2: Blood on Ice
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/sp...n-the-ice.html

Part 3: Coming Dec. 6

Invictus146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 09:32 AM
  #14
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 10,154
vCash: 500
dark, dark stuff. Makes it very easy to call for an end to fighting in the NHL.

haseoke39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 10:15 AM
  #15
StandingCow
Registered User
 
StandingCow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 3,801
vCash: 500
Just watched the first two parts... can't wait to see the third. It really does bring to light what most of us never really think about.

StandingCow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 10:18 AM
  #16
Bookman
Registered User
 
Bookman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: frozen north
Posts: 7,281
vCash: 1000
Very good stuff from the NYT.

Bookman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 10:27 AM
  #17
WorkingOvertime
Registered User
 
WorkingOvertime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
There's a "dark side" for every type of player, not just the enforcer role.

I thought the video was very well done and I'm looking forward to the other two, I just hope they don't vilify the role. I know it's not an easy job, but there's plenty of enforcers who've had terrific careers and lives post hockey.
I agree. The first two videos are great.

However, I do believe the writer's bias is prevalent. Boogy only had one NHL season with more than 10 fights. Lucic has also had one season with more than 10 fights. From the video, viewers are led to believe Boogy fought in the majority of his games, which is not the case. This is evidenced in the narrator saying Boogy was expected to fight every game, he 'blacked out' over 100 times, etc.

The enforcer role has long been regarded as one of the most difficult roles in sports. That has been known to the hockey community. I think the video does an excellent job of capturing this. Despite this, the video should not be used to portray fighting in hockey overall since the video is less than neutral on the subject.

WorkingOvertime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 11:22 AM
  #18
Inklings
and you feel shame
 
Inklings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,401
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Inklings Send a message via Yahoo to Inklings
I'm having trouble watching this. I keep having to pausing it and walking away. I'm glad this is out though. People need to try to watch it.

Inklings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 11:25 AM
  #19
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 8,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
I agree. The first two videos are great.

However, I do believe the writer's bias is prevalent. Boogy only had one NHL season with more than 10 fights. Lucic has also had one season with more than 10 fights. From the video, viewers are led to believe Boogy fought in the majority of his games, which is not the case. This is evidenced in the narrator saying Boogy was expected to fight every game, he 'blacked out' over 100 times, etc.

The enforcer role has long been regarded as one of the most difficult roles in sports. That has been known to the hockey community. I think the video does an excellent job of capturing this. Despite this, the video should not be used to portray fighting in hockey overall since the video is less than neutral on the subject.
You have a point about the number of fights being misleading. The number of blackouts though was from Boogy himself answering the doctors question.

Syckle78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 11:46 AM
  #20
PWB
Dreaming of Donuts
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
I agree. The first two videos are great.

However, I do believe the writer's bias is prevalent. Boogy only had one NHL season with more than 10 fights. Lucic has also had one season with more than 10 fights. From the video, viewers are led to believe Boogy fought in the majority of his games, which is not the case. This is evidenced in the narrator saying Boogy was expected to fight every game, he 'blacked out' over 100 times, etc.

The enforcer role has long been regarded as one of the most difficult roles in sports. That has been known to the hockey community. I think the video does an excellent job of capturing this. Despite this, the video should not be used to portray fighting in hockey overall since the video is less than neutral on the subject.
Why should it be neutral? Fighting in hockey is all about culture. It serves no other purpose. It would be just as easy and advantageous to run star players in other sports. But those other sports, such as the NFL, don't tolerate it. They appreciate both their investment in their star players and the fact that, although there is a market for cage fighting and the like, the larger and more lucrative market, wants its sports violence sanitized. Fighting endures in the NHL because it helps to maintain a 3rd tier market status in the US, and there is a realization that with hockey's other shotrtcomings, this is the most that can be achieved.

PWB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 11:49 AM
  #21
WorkingOvertime
Registered User
 
WorkingOvertime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
You have a point about the number of fights being misleading. The number of blackouts though was from Boogy himself answering the doctors question.
I don't want to speak against Boogy's word if it is being relayed correctly- he was a warrior. However, Boogy had 206 fights in his career (WHL+ ECHL+ AHL+ NHL). In many of those fights, Boogy's opponent did not land any punches. There were roughly <175 fights where Boogy was punched at all. If you watch videos of the fights, he is only 'dazed' a few times, and it should be noticeable if he does have a blackout. According to the NYT, he wasn't a great fighter his first few years, so it is possible these occurred during that time. However, if you watch the most recent fights (his NHL fights) he does not appear to be dazed in close to the 50% rate needed for the statement to hold (throughout his career).

Boogy's story is tough, and I'm glad it is being told. However, it seems the reporter/writer leads the viewers to conclusions about some aspects of Boogy's career/the enforcer role that aren't completely true.

WorkingOvertime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 12:09 PM
  #22
WorkingOvertime
Registered User
 
WorkingOvertime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWB View Post
Why should it be neutral? Fighting in hockey is all about culture. It serves no other purpose. It would be just as easy and advantageous to run star players in other sports. But those other sports, such as the NFL, don't tolerate it. They appreciate both their investment in their star players and the fact that, although there is a market for cage fighting and the like, the larger and more lucrative market, wants its sports violence sanitized. Fighting endures in the NHL because it helps to maintain a 3rd tier market status in the US, and there is a realization that with hockey's other shotrtcomings, this is the most that can be achieved.
It should be neutral because it is a journalistic piece in the NYT. Good journalism presents the facts and leaves the reader/viewer to draw their own conclusions. Here, the reporting is not presenting all of the facts. Further, and more importantly IMO, the evidence presented leads the viewer to false conclusions. Thus, there is bias that negatively effects the article/video because is leads to false conclusions.

Your post is a perfect example of why the piece should be neutral. The piece serves your opinion, and thus it is okay to be bias. If the piece was biased the other way, would you still be happy with it?

If you want to debate fighting, there are plenty of open threads in the NHL talk and in the fights sub-forum. I'm posting about the video/article, not the presence of fighting in the NHL (although they are connected).

WorkingOvertime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 12:25 PM
  #23
smon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
If you want to debate fighting, there are plenty of open threads in the NHL talk and in the fights sub-forum. I'm posting about the video/article, not the presence of fighting in the NHL (although they are connected).
Right, but you just also said that the article is biased against fighting. So logically if the guy wants to talk about fighting this thread is a good place to do it.

smon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 01:39 PM
  #24
Quadruple Dion
Registered User
 
Quadruple Dion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
It should be neutral because it is a journalistic piece in the NYT. Good journalism presents the facts and leaves the reader/viewer to draw their own conclusions. Here, the reporting is not presenting all of the facts. Further, and more importantly IMO, the evidence presented leads the viewer to false conclusions. Thus, there is bias that negatively effects the article/video because is leads to false conclusions.

Your post is a perfect example of why the piece should be neutral. The piece serves your opinion, and thus it is okay to be bias. If the piece was biased the other way, would you still be happy with it?

If you want to debate fighting, there are plenty of open threads in the NHL talk and in the fights sub-forum. I'm posting about the video/article, not the presence of fighting in the NHL (although they are connected).
I'd say that features, editorials, and straight unbiased reporting have different qualities and that this is not inherently problematic.

I don't think the problem, based on what you're saying - though I don't want to put words in your mouth (in your keyboard?) - is not so much not presenting all the facts (selection and subjective judgement concerning relevance is inevitable, I think) as actively misrepresenting the facts, which is a heck of a lot more sinister.

Slightly OT, but boy, was I mad at Don Cherry's opening night rant, as if he so needs to whitewash the role that those three guys can't tell their stories: many of the "unbiased facts" can be antagonistic to people on both sides of the argument, and welcoming unwelcome perspectives is valuable to advancing the discussion, especially those IMO which come straight from 'the horses' mouths', and so the stuff from Fedoruk and Boogard's notebook pages are really interesting.

All that said, I think you're right that this story could stand on its own without exaggeration and misrepresentation.

Quadruple Dion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 02:06 PM
  #25
WorkingOvertime
Registered User
 
WorkingOvertime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
Right, but you just also said that the article is biased against fighting. So logically if the guy wants to talk about fighting this thread is a good place to do it.
I'm not a mod, so I can't speak to what should and should not be in this thread. However, if this thread is about fighting in general, I don't believe the topic of the video/article will still be present. I was commenting on the bias of the article, not the place of fighting in the NHL. I mentioned the other threads because they more exclusively pertain to the topic of fighting in the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadruple Dion View Post
I'd say that features, editorials, and straight unbiased reporting have different qualities and that this is not inherently problematic.

I don't think the problem, based on what you're saying - though I don't want to put words in your mouth (in your keyboard?) - is not so much not presenting all the facts (selection and subjective judgement concerning relevance is inevitable, I think) as actively misrepresenting the facts, which is a heck of a lot more sinister.

Slightly OT, but boy, was I mad at Don Cherry's opening night rant, as if he so needs to whitewash the role that those three guys can't tell their stories: many of the "unbiased facts" can be antagonistic to people on both sides of the argument, and welcoming unwelcome perspectives is valuable to advancing the discussion, especially those IMO which come straight from 'the horses' mouths', and so the stuff from Fedoruk and Boogard's notebook pages are really interesting.

All that said, I think you're right that this story could stand on its own without exaggeration and misrepresentation.
You are correct. My problem with the articles/videos is that viewers/readers are led to incorrect/misinformed conclusions. I am most surprised this often occurs when the facts are available- i.e. how many fights actually occurred.

I'm glad someone decided to tell this story. As an informed viewer, the mistakes of the writer are apparent to me, and I can enjoy the story with them. However, I am worried at the uninformed viewer, and how they will interpret the issues I've mentioned.

WorkingOvertime is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:15 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.