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Hockey Fights Discuss and rate hockey fights and fighters of today and from the past. Videos welcome!

Punched Out: The Life and Death of a Hockey Enforcer

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Old
12-15-2011, 12:26 PM
  #151
txpd
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
That' s an interesting point but its not relevant to the topic at hand. Why don't you answer the hypothetical, lucic runs your goalie and you are on the ice. What do you do ? do you stand there or do you drop them even if it means you are likely to catch a beating ?.
this is a point that never gets conversation. how is lucic going to be deterred from a cheap shot when running a goalie over only gives him an opportunity to beat somebody up too?

self policing is only effective if the police are stronger than the perps and win the policing action. the whole deal with the broad st bully flyers was that they first beat your fights up and controlled that part of the game. then moose dupont or bobby clark could play as dirty as they wanted to because there was no longer any threat from "the police".

secondly fighting after clean hits doesnt deter hitting in the nhl. how is it going to deter cheap shots?

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12-15-2011, 12:28 PM
  #152
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There are lots of leagues without fighting, but are they a better product without it? If the Olympics or WJC had 30 teams instead of app. 10, would it still be a better product?

Sure, there isn't a LOT of fighting in the Stanley Cup playoffs, but who doesn't remember Lecavalier vs. Iginla in the '04 finals? That fight was just as memorable as the Game 6 controversial no goal, the Khabibulin save on Leopold in Game 7, Fedotenko's two-goal performance, or St. Louis' bloody face after getting hammered into the boards. The fight was just as lasting an image from that epic series.

All of those things are part of what makes hockey such an awesome sport. Would hockey still be awesome without fighting? It'd be less awesome, that's for sure.

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12-15-2011, 01:43 PM
  #153
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lets not go overboard. i understand that you are a fight fan. fighting is a bi product of north american hockey. by definition it is not a primary. is a short handed goal more primary? sure. its a goal. you win the game by scoring more goals than the opposition. winning a fight in and of itself does not win a game in hockey.

further most adult hockey is played without fighting. all european leagues from russian to sweden dont have fighting. NCAA hockey does not allow fighting. International Olympic, World Championships and the all Canadian hit World Junior Championships dont allow fighting. Many to majority of NHL games dont have a fight. How can that describe something primary?
and I understand that you are not a fight fan. I also understand that you don't get to unilaterally decide dfor everyone what is actually a "part" of the game. guys dumping the puck in the corners to wear down the defense is a great way to make the defenseman more reticent to go into the corners late in the game. If this leads to a scoring chance late in the game, then the work that the wingers did in periods one and two contributed to that goal even if it does not show on the score sheet.

Blocking shots does not in of itself win games, are you suggesting that because it doe not appear in the score sheets that it is not important ? Players and coaches have repeatedly said that the difference between winning and loosing can be measured in seconds and inches. If fighting helps contribute to this difference by giving you more space, then why denigrate it ?

And that is a real nice list of leagues that don't allow fighting, perhaps you should enjoy them as opposed to trying to make the NHL ( which has an established history of fisticuffs) more like these second-tier leagues. I support fighting in the NHL, I have never said that because I accept the benefits of fighting in the NHL that the NCAA and all of the european leagues ( oh and bye the way the non-figthing KHL league says hi) should follow suit because I understand that the fighting is not part of the culture of these leagues.
Why cant the antifighting crowd reciprocate and accept that the NHL has ALWAYS had fighting instead of insisting that the game be fundamentally changed for the sole reason of making the game more palatable to minority of fans, irrespective of the wishes of say 80% of the people in the stands and 95 % of the people on the ice ?

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12-15-2011, 05:18 PM
  #154
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first of all i was responding to whether fighting is a primary part of hockey. if the entire stanley cup final can be played without a single fight, i am not sure who you can say its primary.

i am not so much anti fighting as i am against the weak defenses for fighting that i read on these boards....like fighting is a primary part of hockey.

as to your, if i dont like fighting, i should watch something othr than hockey. as ive said, fighting is an occasional thing that most often has little if any effect on the game. it doesnt deter me from watching anymore than fighting after a clean hit deters hitting.

be sure that i am not saying anything about your enjoyment of fighting in the nhl. again its the idea that its a primary part of the game. fighting has a full history of fighting in the nhl, but when you say fighting is part of hockey, its not accurate.

fighting does have a long history in the nhl. however, fighting has changed over the years and conditions have evolved. no more bench clearing brawls. no more 3rd man in. very rare occasions of more than one fight per incident. all of this reduces fighting. the concussion issues the league is facing may require another adjustment. there is plenty of precident for the nhl to make those adjustments. no?

lastly, in your push back you have both suggested that if fighting were taken out of hockey, that hitting and any physical contact should go too and if i dont like fighting, i should stop watching the nhl. as a general rule these kind of comments come when a logical response is not available. sort of like saying "your mother wears combat boots".

edit: one last comment. i could easily accept that you just like fighting and want to see more of it. i might push back a bit if you said you didnt care about the injuries, but even still that would only be slight. many fight fans would rather see the fighting and the increased injuries than reduce fighting to reduce the concussions. i dont agree with that but i can accept that as a valid opinion.


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Old
12-16-2011, 11:22 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
lastly, in your push back you have both suggested that if fighting were taken out of hockey, that hitting and any physical contact should go too and if i dont like fighting, i should stop watching the nhl. as a general rule these kind of comments come when a logical response is not available. sort of like saying "your mother wears combat boots".

edit: one last comment. i could easily accept that you just like fighting and want to see more of it. i might push back a bit if you said you didnt care about the injuries, but even still that would only be slight. many fight fans would rather see the fighting and the increased injuries than reduce fighting to reduce the concussions. i dont agree with that but i can accept that as a valid opinion.
If the primary goal of the anti fighting crowd is to increase player safety then I don't see how you can advocate getting rid of fighting and not advocate getting rid of hitting as the latter is far more injurious.

And I didn't bring up the other leagues, you did. You think that it is okay to ask the NHL to become more like these second tier league that dont have fights, while I have never suggested that these leagues adopt fighting to become more like the NHL.

There are lots of things about other leagues and sports I dont like. Instead of advocating that these leagues change to meet my preferences, I accept that they are just not my cup of tea and find leagues that are more to my liking. I don't see how suggesting this is akin to insulting your mother.

In essence my biggest complaint of the non fighting crowd is despite all of their protestations to the contrary, their arguments boil down to " I ( emphasis on the I) don't like fights". This is a fine position to have and if you have it you get to make the decision as to whether getting to watch the greatest hockey players in the world is enough to assuage your offended sensibilities. If it's not, then you have lots of other choices.

Fighting is overwhelmingly supported by the fans, the players (past and present) and the league. I am sorry that you find it so offensive but I think that their wishes carry more weight than yours.

And if you had read anything I've written in this thread, my support of fighting in the NHL has little to do with liking the fights. I support it because the players want it. If fighting were to dissappear because the players chose this path I would be perfectly fine with that.

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12-16-2011, 11:34 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I support it because the players want it. If fighting were to dissappear because the players chose this path I would be perfectly fine with that.
This is exactly how I feel on the subject, as well.

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12-16-2011, 06:26 PM
  #157
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thats good. in coming years its starting to look like the nhlpa is going to ask for a greater attention to cutting down on concussions including reducing fighting. i'll be interested to see your reaction at that time.

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12-16-2011, 06:49 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats good. in coming years its starting to look like the nhlpa is going to ask for a greater attention to cutting down on concussions including reducing fighting. i'll be interested to see your reaction at that time.
First I'm sure that the nhlpa is far less interested in getting rid of fighting as you suggest, and second its a good thing that this call to abandon fighting has only stated in the last year or so ( no wait this argument has been around for more than 40 years, with 95% of the players it might dip below 50% by 2084)

But I have no problem if the players want to restrict or ban fighting, because they are the ones to face the consequences.

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12-21-2011, 11:55 AM
  #159
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Thank you for positng, I watched all three reports and have always been a proponent of leaving fighting in the game.

This report is very slanted\bias towards the conclusion that fighting was directly the result of his death. Although the science is still early on understanding concussions I think this is one of those situations where the preliminary findings are very close to what will conclusively be understood in several years of more study. That constant brain injuries are a direct path to the behaviors and symptoms you see in later life from these enforcers.

This is the first material I have seen that has made me reevaluate my stance on fighting. Especially the part where as a 16-17 yo kid being in a role where he is largely expected to fight.

That said fighting is not the only source of brain injury as we are seeing this season where concussions are now being handled as a serious life threatening injury.

I am not sure where I am standing now, this report has me thinking.

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12-21-2011, 12:03 PM
  #160
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This report is very slanted\bias towards the conclusion that fighting was directly the result of his death.
I think you mean the other way around

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12-24-2011, 09:39 PM
  #161
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I'm probably in the minority here but these 3 episodes paint hockey as a barbaric, brutal, garbage sport. Minor league teams scout 14 and 15 year old players to fight. Not play hockey, but fight. I can't imagine the emotional toll a 15 year old gets from being told to fight every day. Pathetic.

The role of the enforcer is a joke, and I find it morally wrong that players and fans embrace such a role.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy fighting. I enjoy a passionate fight. I don't enjoy a staged fight.

I also strongly oppose the notion that enforcers deter cheap shots. Every team has been a target of a cheap shot, and many of them had an enforcer dressed. The Pens Islanders brawl of last season comes to mind, and we had 3 players who fight on at least a semi regular basis.

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12-25-2011, 12:17 AM
  #162
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They really should look at eliminating fighting at the junior level.

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12-25-2011, 05:12 AM
  #163
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They really should look at eliminating fighting at the junior level.
Exactly. I don't understand how these young kids' parents allow them to fight so young. Just because fighting is allowed in the NHL doesn't mean it's alright to have teeenagers fighting.

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12-25-2011, 03:21 PM
  #164
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Exactly. I don't understand how these young kids' parents allow them to fight so young. Just because fighting is allowed in the NHL doesn't mean it's alright to have teeenagers fighting.
visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads. how many parents allow their teenagers to race cars or motorscylcles with the idea that they might be the next jeff gordon or jeremy mcgrath? they could get killed. Last August at Indianapolis Motor Speedway during the Moto GP weekend a 13 year old kid was killed in a support series race.

so, if parents will risk that, they will risk the fighting.

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12-25-2011, 03:49 PM
  #165
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Just clicked on your quote as a quick way to jot a note
Lol oh Txpd your still on your anti-fighting campaign

North American culture breeds and embraces violence and devistating contact in sports.
MMA, Boxing, Lacross, Hockey, Football, Wrestling (not WWE but it is simulated for entertainment lol)

and in disciplined arts such as
Karate, Jiu Jits, and a ton of other Martial arts which teach you how to "defend" yourself but yet you apply these skills to win in tournements and other specticles of entertainment.

Lets just face the reality that violence and contact within sports is what NA and other sports fans enjoy. There are the minority that do not such as yourself but will the minority make a difference?!

We will see in the future I guess

Merry Christmas Txpd


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Old
12-25-2011, 06:26 PM
  #166
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actually there was nothing anti fighting about that post. i responded to someone that found it hard to believe parents would let their teenage boys fight in a hockey game. i simply said if parents are willing to let their children race cars and motorcycles fighting isnt a big deal.

btw. i am not anti fighting. i am not pro fighting. what i am against are the long held defenses of fighting amongs many posters here.

they defend fighting as required to save the game from one thing or another when what they really want is more fighting. they say fighting is required to police the game when most nhl fights have nothing to do with that and if all the fighting was removed except policing the game fights, they would be very vocal and unhappy. am i wrong?

just say you like fighting and if there was less of it, you would enjoy it less. thats fine. we live in free countries and are allowed our opinions.

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12-27-2011, 02:46 PM
  #167
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and I understand that you are not a fight fan. I also understand that you don't get to unilaterally decide dfor everyone what is actually a "part" of the game. guys dumping the puck in the corners to wear down the defense is a great way to make the defenseman more reticent to go into the corners late in the game. If this leads to a scoring chance late in the game, then the work that the wingers did in periods one and two contributed to that goal even if it does not show on the score sheet.

Blocking shots does not in of itself win games, are you suggesting that because it doe not appear in the score sheets that it is not important ? Players and coaches have repeatedly said that the difference between winning and loosing can be measured in seconds and inches. If fighting helps contribute to this difference by giving you more space, then why denigrate it ?

And that is a real nice list of leagues that don't allow fighting, perhaps you should enjoy them as opposed to trying to make the NHL ( which has an established history of fisticuffs) more like these second-tier leagues. I support fighting in the NHL, I have never said that because I accept the benefits of fighting in the NHL that the NCAA and all of the european leagues ( oh and bye the way the non-figthing KHL league says hi) should follow suit because I understand that the fighting is not part of the culture of these leagues.
Why cant the antifighting crowd reciprocate and accept that the NHL has ALWAYS had fighting instead of insisting that the game be fundamentally changed for the sole reason of making the game more palatable to minority of fans, irrespective of the wishes of say 80% of the people in the stands and 95 % of the people on the ice ?
Ah yes... the last refuge of the pro-fighting crowd. The league has always had fighting. Because, of course, nothing ever evolves or changes. Just like the Romans ALWAYS had gladiators. Executions have ALWAYS been public. You probably typed your post on a typewriter, right? Rode to work on a horse? Still wear a suit and tie to Sunday dinner?

Also the fact that you might think something is "awesome" is completely beside the point when what you think is "awesome" puts someone else's life and health at risk. I've enjoyed hockey as a (pretty mediocre) player and as a fan for longer than most of the folks on this board have been alive... I have as much invested in the history of the game as most and even I know when it's time to take a serious look at stuff we cheer for.

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12-27-2011, 03:46 PM
  #168
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Ah yes... the last refuge of the pro-fighting crowd. The league has always had fighting. Because, of course, nothing ever evolves or changes. Just like the Romans ALWAYS had gladiators. Executions have ALWAYS been public. You probably typed your post on a typewriter, right? Rode to work on a horse? Still wear a suit and tie to Sunday dinner?

Also the fact that you might think something is "awesome" is completely beside the point when what you think is "awesome" puts someone else's life and health at risk. I've enjoyed hockey as a (pretty mediocre) player and as a fan for longer than most of the folks on this board have been alive... I have as much invested in the history of the game as most and even I know when it's time to take a serious look at stuff we cheer for.
Wow. really. I believe we have our own gladiators in our culture and that would be the UFC (MMA).........they just dont kill each other and use weapons but breaking of bones and massive blood loss is right up there. On top of that it is one of the fastest growing and profitable sports. Violent specticals are a staple in our society.

Lets look at the current trend of concussions which is putting someones life and health at risk. Is it do to fighting....no. It is due to body contact within our sport. Would you favor removing contact from the game? I know I stand and cheer for a huge body check.

Transcribed from my butler by telegraph to a typewriter to a vintage mac to an ipad to this site.


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Old
12-27-2011, 05:01 PM
  #169
PuckInTheNards
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Wow. really. I believe we have our own gladiators in our culture and that would be the UFC (MMA).........they just dont kill each other and use weapons but breaking of bones and massive blood loss is right up there. On top of that it is one of the fastest growing and profitable sports. Violent specticals are a staple in our society.

Lets look at the current trend of concussions which is putting someones life and health at risk. Is it do to fighting....no. It is due to body contact within our sport. Would you favor removing contact from the game? I know I stand and cheer for a huge body check.

Transcribed from my butler by telegraph to a typewriter to a vintage mac to an ipad to this site.
Not using weapons and not killing each other are fairly significant. I watch boxing and MMA, too. In fact, I've been watching the UFC since it began and even that sport has evolved tremendously for safety. The old guard still whine about the "loss of purity" but the sport it more accessible and popular than ever.

Hitting in hockey is integral to the sport - just as it is in rugby or football. Fighting is not. And I'm not even advocating completely getting rid of fighting - just getting rid of goons whose sole responsibility is fighting the other team's goons.

Good on you for having a butler, though....

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12-27-2011, 09:35 PM
  #170
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Ah yes... the last refuge of the pro-fighting crowd. The league has always had fighting. Because, of course, nothing ever evolves or changes. Just like the Romans ALWAYS had gladiators. Executions have ALWAYS been public. You probably typed your post on a typewriter, right? Rode to work on a horse? Still wear a suit and tie to Sunday dinner?

Also the fact that you might think something is "awesome" is completely beside the point when what you think is "awesome" puts someone else's life and health at risk. I've enjoyed hockey as a (pretty mediocre) player and as a fan for longer than most of the folks on this board have been alive... I have as much invested in the history of the game as most and even I know when it's time to take a serious look at stuff we cheer for.
There is no refuge here. As it has been mentioned multiple times, if the players want to stop fighting I'm fine with it. What I opposed is the self serving entitled whiners who actually believe that they have a specific understanding of what is best for the game that eludes 90% of the players lacing them up. And the league is somehow compelled to give the wishes of the anti fighting whiners the same weight as the people who will ultimately face the consequences. This would be freaking lunacy.

Yes the game changes, not always for the better but to deny that to date the NHL has always had fights requires a complete denial of reality. What if the majority of fans wanted the players to wear tutus on the ice. What if they really really beleived it would improve the game? Because the amount of time the players have worn tutus is the exact same amount of time the NHL has existed without the opportunity for the players to self police.

You might think you are getting the best of this debate but that is moot. You don't disagree with me or the anti fighting crowd, you disagree with the overwhelming number of players past and presnt as well as the overwhelming majority of people in position of power in the league. Knowing this you still want people to give your desires priority?

Got sense of entitlement?

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