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Toews, the 2nd best forward in the NHL?

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Old
12-04-2011, 07:01 PM
  #26
Judrix
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1. Crosby
2. Malkin

then there's Stamkos, Giroux, Datsyuk, Toews which can in any order and I wouldn't be irked.

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12-04-2011, 07:12 PM
  #27
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Datsyuk's puck handling is arguably the best in the league (I think it is).

Our captain will be behind Datsyuk in all facets of the game, except for face offs, atleast for another season.

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12-04-2011, 07:25 PM
  #28
LandofLincoln
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Toews

I was wanting to start a poll on the main board partially because last year Stamkos had better numbers than Toews...Who is better? Last year Stamkos may have been ahead of Toews.

Toews faceoff % and wins are a stat that gets overlooked. Giroux is good in the dot but Toews is miles ahead of every all-star on faceoffs. Toews is clearly better than Stamkos for all the intangables that don't show up on stat sheets.

Toews as the second best forward in the NHL. Crosby is better. Honestly Malkin probably is better, but maybe not I'm not really sure...Giroux is not in the discussion nor is Zetterberg. Datsyuk possibly but in the last 2 seasons he has been sliding, but still probably ahead of Toews. maybe?

I'm starting to wonder what the next Toews & Kane contracts will look like. They were exact same last negotiations. Toews probably will hit 8.5m

Hossa should be in the conversation of top forwards he clearly is better than Zetterberg. Ovechkin not in any conversations?


Last edited by LandofLincoln: 12-04-2011 at 07:35 PM.
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Old
12-04-2011, 08:29 PM
  #29
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What is comes down to is we have Toews and the other team doesn't. Suck it.

They can argue and nitpick all they want, but ultimately we all have the privilege of watching JT win us a cup and continue to dominate year in year out.

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12-04-2011, 08:30 PM
  #30
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I think Malkin is underrated quite often. He is a fantastic player. And the Pens were top of the east without Crosby and Malkin carrying the load. I would pick Malkin over Datsyuk. Crosby 2 years ago was the best by far. But Crosby now I am not so sure. I would say Toews is 3rd or 4th best.

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12-04-2011, 10:07 PM
  #31
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Crosby, Datsyuk and Stamkos have the edge offensively no doubt. Crosbys offensive numbers speak for themselves as do Datsyuk and Stamkos.

Check everyones +/-. Now while this is flawed stat based on many variables, its the only one avaliable thats out there and its my position it balances out in the end. Datsyuk was putting up sick numbers until the past 2 years when hes come back to earth. Crosby? Supreme offensive talent, probably the best in the NHL but +10, 18, 3, 15, 20 over the past 5 years. Shurely someone scoring a million goals and assists could consistantly be in the 25-35-40 range. Datsyuk, +36, 41, 34, 17, 11. Hes 33. Both are 5'11" and while Datsyuks stick skills are unquestioned, both are limited because of their size.

Bottom line is Toews is the NHLs best all around center. He is a beast and a winner. Showed that in his Olympic year. Someone who probably most questioned if he should have even been given a spot on the team, who statred on the 4th line and at the end was universally acknowledged as Canadas best center. Toews does what it takes to win plain and simple.

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12-04-2011, 11:24 PM
  #32
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Toews is top ten.

Not top two.

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12-05-2011, 12:14 AM
  #33
LandofLincoln
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1. Crosby
2. Datsyuk
I think that is easy and clear.

3. Toews, Malkin, Stamkos or Ovechkin not very clear.

Toews can have a month or two in a row where he is better than Datsyuk but Datsyuk is better.
I don't think it is possible for Toews to have 2 months in a row where he is better than Crosby.
As much as Stamkos was ahead of Toews last year Toews is ahead this year. Overall Stamkos better career.
Ovechkin has fallen way down and Malkin is always hurt.

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Old
12-05-2011, 02:40 AM
  #34
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I'd rank Toews behind Malkin, Crosby, and Datsyuk. Toews is on fire right now but just to play devils advocate, he might not even be the best forward on his own team.

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12-05-2011, 08:48 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawks82 View Post
I'd rank Toews behind Malkin, Crosby, and Datsyuk. Toews is on fire right now but just to play devils advocate, he might not even be the best forward on his own team.
but he is

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12-05-2011, 10:48 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hawks82 View Post
I'd rank Toews behind Malkin, Crosby, and Datsyuk. Toews is on fire right now but just to play devils advocate, he might not even be the best forward on his own team.
very true.. Hossa's career numbers are outstanding and if he plays 75 games or more he will have big numbers.

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12-05-2011, 10:58 AM
  #37
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People are so quick to scoff at the idea of Toews not being the best forward on his team. Kane has more offensive talent, Hossa a better shot.
Nothing wrong with that at all.

Toews drives to the net, works behind the net, and stuffs in garbage goals. He has great hands and deking but Kane has more offensive talent

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12-05-2011, 10:58 AM
  #38
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Toews is better than hossa

do you think hossa would have DRAGGED the team last year into the playoffs if toews was injured

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12-05-2011, 11:03 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
People are so quick to scoff at the idea of Toews not being the best forward on his team. Kane has more offensive talent, Hossa a better shot.
Nothing wrong with that at all.

Toews drives to the net, works behind the net, and stuffs in garbage goals. He has great hands and deking but Kane has more offensive talent
Kane is better at puck handling and what I would call shiftyness. You rarely see Kane beat someone and take it to the net. It's usually to create space for a pass. Toews has a better shot in my opinion. Toews is just about the only guy that will beat someone and drive the net.

Hossa's shot... I think that's questionable. Maybe when he actually winds up for a shot but half the time he's flipping these quick weak wristers in to the goalie pads or missing net.

They're all different players but neither Kane or Hossa are above Toews at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Toews is better than hossa

do you think hossa would have DRAGGED the team last year into the playoffs if toews was injured
This - I don't see Kane or Hossa being leaders other than play on the ice.

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12-05-2011, 11:34 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Toews is top ten.

Not top two.
this.

and i'm damn happy about it.

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12-05-2011, 11:41 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Toews is better than hossa

do you think hossa would have DRAGGED the team last year into the playoffs if toews was injured
I'm not saying Hossa is the more valueable hockey player, I'm saying that with Hossa, there's legitimate points to be made that would suggest Hossa has more offensive talent. There's a difference between the two that I don't think many people are noticing.

Up until Toews got hot Kane and Hossa were absolutely carrying this team and either of the two could have been the team MVP

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12-05-2011, 01:22 PM
  #42
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I hope Toews gets as little respect from his fellow players as he does on the main board...Unfortunately we all know thats not true

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12-05-2011, 01:26 PM
  #43
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I hope Toews gets as little respect from his fellow players as he does on the main board...Unfortunately we all know thats not true
The Hawks were a whipping post for them most of their lives and now that they are a top 2 organization in the league, they can't get over it. I love it.

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12-05-2011, 01:47 PM
  #44
Jeffrey Lebowski
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The distinction we all (and the friendly posts of the main board) need to make is that there are several players that are better than Toews but his value as a person and member of any organization is much higher than that.

His work ethic, love for winning and the will to do whatever it takes to win, maturity, humility and offensive/defensive tools make for quite the player. Other fans don't see that. What they see is a player who has/will flirt with PPG production with Selke-caliber defense and think that there are several other players who can do that or better (hence the jokes about intangibles).

What we see is a player who has and will continue to do everything in his power to win games. He'll be the scorer when he needs to, he'll shut down players when he needs to, he'll inspire our team and set the bar for what he and our coaches expect from the rest of the team (ironically, when Crosby does it... it's called talent and is something to be admired but for Toews it's simply 'intangibles' and is grounds for jokes). Add in the ~PPG production and Selke-caliber defense. That's why he's much more valuable in our eyes.

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Old
12-05-2011, 02:20 PM
  #45
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Well-if he could just get rid of his usual slow starts --just imagine where he could be ranked! COMPARE JT first 15 games v. JT last 12 games ...cold vs. red hot --BUT in his whole career he's always been a better 2nd half producer--so the INCREASED PACE he has this year -by going hot EARLIER (after just 15 games instead of his usual 25-30 games to get "hot" is encouraging in that at least he is IMPROVING ...So far in his NHL careeer he's had production level (for an 82 GP season) at about 68/69 pts over his entry contract (3 yrs) to a jump to 76 pts in yr 4 (80GP) to the GLF (Great Leap Forward) projecting to 88 pts for this season if he stays on pace...Yes-not Crosby-like --but at least improving --still if he could just not be so cold in the first 20-25% of the season instead of averaging it out by being hotter over the final 75-80% of the season -that might get him to 95-100pts ..Again --not crosby-esque like 2005/06 and the halfsie of 2010/11 to 120 and beyond pts -but at least "normal" Crosby of the 100pts+ a bit range of other seasons..

AS for the OTHER stuff besidespoints--- "leadership" ;faceoffs ,defensive 3-zone play (well there is a quibble in that because he has not made much difference on the PK -which has been abysmal this season--but the perception is that he's resopnsible defensively --that IMO depends on which JT we see on the ice--the smooth skater during the 75-80% latter parts of the season OR the stumbler/bumbler skater we see a lot --for some reason-in the first 20-25% of each season when he starts slow...


Remember his very early season goal a few years back where he went through and around the entire Av's team to score a goal ? THAT was even very early in the season..but soon after he had games where he wasn't moving his feet and did lots of stumbling in his skating...So why it takes him so long each year to straighten this out and maintain the good style skating instead -that I cannot figure out.


I can say that THIS YEAR he has way upped his shots on goal and his shooting % is also up over lsast season...So in those aspects he has way improved over what we have seen before.

ANYWAY --it all doesn't matter anymore because nobody can imagine the "face" of the Blackhawks being identified with anyon else--even if that were cry me a river Crosby! Sid the kid may produce superior performance but he'll never have the "class" JT exudes ..So we are thankful we have him (JT) ---we can imagine one day trading Kane if required but nobody can see ever trading JT.

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Old
12-05-2011, 02:25 PM
  #46
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Quote:
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Remember his very early season goal a few years back where he went through and around the entire Av's team to score a goal ? THAT was even very early in the season..but soon after he had games where he wasn't moving his feet and did lots of stumbling in his skating...So why it takes him so long each year to straighten this out and maintain the good style skating instead -that I cannot figure out.
That was his rookie season. Definitely was early on in the season. The only tv broadcast of that game was the Avalanche broadcast and their announcers were going crazy over it.

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Old
12-05-2011, 02:48 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
People are so quick to scoff at the idea of Toews not being the best forward on his team. Kane has more offensive talent, Hossa a better shot.
Nothing wrong with that at all.

Toews drives to the net, works behind the net, and stuffs in garbage goals. He has great hands and deking but Kane has more offensive talent

A player does not have to look pretty to have offensive talent. Some players will get a highlight of the night once every dozen games or so but it doesn't make them better offensively.


Toews can make the most of every opportunity that presents itself. Look at his game 7 goal in Vancouver last year. He basically willed that puck into the net like a fullback on a goal line stand. He scores a lot of goals that way but he can make a play when that opportunity is there or he can make a sick deke to if that is what he is given to work with.


Kane is a sick play maker and I don't think anyone in the game sees the ice like he does right now except for Crosby. Every pass he makes is a can of corn that a 10 year old could accept and he hits those passes when people have space to do something with it. He very seldom forces the puck into a bad spot. But Kane has holes in his game. There are things about his game that are exploitable. There is NO PART of Toews game that is exploitable. That and his consistent intensity is what makes him the Hawks best forward bar none.



Crosby is the only comparable player in the fact that he can do it all. He does everything as well as Toews and a few things much better. Crosby is better and there is no doubt about it. But Stamkos? Giroux? Datsyuk? no thanks!! Only Malkin is close but when Malkin gets rattled he falls apart. In the same situation Toews rises to the occasion. I'll take the guy with the bigger heart every time!

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Old
12-05-2011, 03:12 PM
  #48
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I was a little reluctant to suggest that Toews might not be the best forward on the Hawks because I agree that people do scoff at the idea.

I didn't intend for it to be a slight against Toews. You could easily say that Kane, Toews, or Hossa is the best forward on the Hawks and you'd have a legit argument.

I would rank Toews ahead of Hossa. IMO where the argument becomes a little more difficult is when you bring Patrick Kane into the equation.

Patrick Kane is an absolute beast of a playmaker. He's proven this season that he can play 2 forward positions at a PPG level, his defense has improved to the point where I feel as though he's almost underrated in that respect. I would give the edge to Kane but only slightly.

Regardless, being stocked with 3 elite forwards is a great problem for the Hawks to have.

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Old
12-05-2011, 04:31 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Toews is better than hossa

do you think hossa would have DRAGGED the team last year into the playoffs if toews was injured
I agree Toews is better than Hossa unfortunately there has not been one statistical year of Toews young career to support our opinions. It doesn't make us wrong.

Kane has more talent than Toews. Talent no... Skill hell yeah Kane has the most skills on the team. His body being a smaller forward means he just has to rely on his speed. Talent and size sometimes are together. Speed and skills are weapons that Kane has on the level of Crosby. Crosby just has it all size, strength & skill.

Hossa has been below average as a Hawk in the playoffs. However, I think Hossa can be 1st or 2nd in playoff scoring.

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Old
12-05-2011, 05:58 PM
  #50
Gootie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Toews is better than hossa

do you think hossa would have DRAGGED the team last year into the playoffs if toews was injured
Hossa dragged the team out of the gate last year, when Toews was sluggish.

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