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Old
12-25-2011, 06:56 AM
  #126
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FastHockey will show our games vs SUI & SVK (no charges). I'm really glad about it.


Czechs had twice as many guys who were used to small ice and weren't changing their bioclock significantly. But that's a closed case now, it was just a friendly where we tested our 3rd keeper.
No matter who stands between the pipes if we allow 50+ shots

Hopefully we`ll improve, but i don`t expect significant changes.

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12-25-2011, 11:24 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Irbe and Ozolinsh are also products of Soviet Hockey.
How exactly are they products of "Soviet hockey"? They've been coached by Latvian coaches in Latvian hockey schools and they've played almost their entire careers in North America.

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12-25-2011, 11:31 AM
  #128
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How exactly are they products of "Soviet hockey"? They've been coached by Latvian coaches in Latvian hockey schools and they've played almost their entire careers in North America.
So Soviet hockey didn't produce anything at all? Because all the Russian players were trained by Russian coaches in Russian schools.

The nationality of a player's coach have nothing to do with this.

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12-25-2011, 12:08 PM
  #129
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So Soviet hockey didn't produce anything at all? Because all the Russian players were trained by Russian coaches in Russian schools.

The nationality of a player's coach have nothing to do with this.
A great strawman, thanks.

Are you implying that "Soviet hockey school" is a political term? Everyone who grew up as a hockey player under the rule of Brezhnev is automatically rendered a product of the Soviet hockey school? Or does it have something to do with the style of play and the methods employed by the first coaches of the respective hockey player?

If it's the former, the term is absolutely irrelevant.

If it's the latter, I'm sure you'll be able to elaborate on how exactly Irbe and Ozoliņ are products of "Soviet hockey" and what are the general characteristics in hockey that they share with other players from the "Soviet hockey school".

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12-25-2011, 12:12 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
How exactly are they products of "Soviet hockey"? They've been coached by Latvian coaches in Latvian hockey schools and they've played almost their entire careers in North America.

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12-25-2011, 12:30 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
A great strawman, thanks.

Are you implying that "Soviet hockey school" is a political term? Everyone who grew up as a hockey player under the rule of Brezhnev is automatically rendered a product of the Soviet hockey school? Or does it have something to do with the style of play and the methods employed by the first coaches of the respective hockey player?

If it's the former, the term is absolutely irrelevant.

If it's the latter, I'm sure you'll be able to elaborate on how exactly Irbe and Ozoliņš are products of "Soviet hockey" and what are the general characteristics in hockey that they share with other players from the "Soviet hockey school".
I admit, it's hard to put the finger on, what makes a player a product of Soviet system. I'd say they benefited from the fact that their parents didn't have to pay for the ice (whole game was a lot cheaper) thus larger poll of players had a chance of even dreaming of becoming a hockey player and attending try-outs, while developing they could travel with their team to tournaments around the Union, Dinamo Riga as a focal point at the top of local hockey pyramid.

But as I said earlier, why are there no players of Ozolins and Irbe caliber are developed in Latvia after the brake up of the Soviet Union. Our coaches are still here, we have more arenas than ever before but no high end product to show for it. Are we simply having a dry spell?

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12-25-2011, 01:27 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
You'll have to do better than that.

It's easy and comforting to simplify things and to put everything into neat little boxes, but, unfortunately, that's also the definition of being narrow-minded.


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But as I said earlier, why are there no players of Ozolins and Irbe caliber are developed in Latvia after the brake up of the Soviet Union. Our coaches are still here, we have more arenas than ever before but no high end product to show for it. Are we simply having a dry spell?
I think you already answered your own question there. It's just a matter of time now before a new Irbe or Ozoliņ pops up. It's not like talent like that was available left and right during the Soviet times. How many Latvian-born players of this calibre can you name at all?

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12-25-2011, 04:40 PM
  #133
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How exactly are they products of "Soviet hockey"? They've been coached by Latvian coaches in Latvian hockey schools and they've played almost their entire careers in North America.
you cant be serious young man

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12-25-2011, 04:47 PM
  #134
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you cant be serious young man
Prove him wrong with your arguments.

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12-25-2011, 04:48 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
Our coaches are still here, we have more arenas than ever before but no high end product to show for it. Are we simply having a dry spell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I think you already answered your own question there. It's just a matter of time now before a new Irbe or Ozoliņ pops up. It's not like talent like that was available left and right during the Soviet times. How many Latvian-born players of this calibre can you name at all?
I think your mixing two things up which are analyzed in past posts: Players who become great by playing within Latvian system and Players simply born in Latvia.

At this point I really don't see Latvian ice-hockey system getting so internationally good that we would develop players like Irbe or Ozolins, players who could stay all their career in Latvia till they get drafted to NHL. Such potential children or teenagers might of course start their career in Latvia, but when they start to show glimpse's of greatness they'll probably will continue their hockey carrier abroad because only there they could develop or prepare for NHL career better and also would have better chance to get drafted in that system in a better round and better pick. (I believe that all young players want to join the NHL.)

If we were to talk only about players who are born in Latvia then Girgensons could not only be as good as but has the potential of becoming even greater than Ozolins and he'll be drafted this year. Also by 2014 draft we can have quite high round pick's. So If we are talking about players simply born in Latvia then I don't see a dry spell and if your saying that we are getting such caliber players to seldom, well, we have a small country. If we are talking about Latvian system developing players like Girgensons all the way to NHL, then I don't see this dry spell getting fixed in any close future.
All Latvian potential hockey talent will search for opportunities abroad and won't stay in Latvia.

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12-25-2011, 06:45 PM
  #136
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Not quite sure why are we even arguing here. Like it or not, Latvia was part of Soviet Union up untill 1991. We can spend hours discussing terminology, but as i see it, everything (including Latvijas Bērzs etc.) were part of that system. Irbe and Ozolinsh developed under that system, Soviet system. What nationality they had, where they played after the teen years, that does not change how and where they started.

It takes decades to develop distinct hockey pyramind from top to bottom. I really hope one day we will be able to talk about Latvian hockey system. A real one, not that mess we have at the moment.

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12-25-2011, 11:10 PM
  #137
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I think your mixing two things up which are analyzed in past posts: Players who become great by playing within Latvian system and Players simply born in Latvia.
You're not quite getting the context of that post. There was a large influx of Russian players to Latvia, who played for Dinamo Riga, for instance, and some eventually stayed in this country. Some consider them to be Latvian.

Quote:
At this point I really don't see Latvian ice-hockey system getting so internationally good that we would develop players like Irbe or Ozolins, players who could stay all their career in Latvia till they get drafted to NHL. Such potential children or teenagers might of course start their career in Latvia, but when they start to show glimpse's of greatness they'll probably will continue their hockey carrier abroad because only there they could develop or prepare for NHL career better and also would have better chance to get drafted in that system in a better round and better pick.
Once again, I think you're not aware of the restrictions of movement that we had during the Soviet times. The fact that Latvian players played in Latvia doesn't mean that the level of junior hockey here was so much better then than it is now. They simply could not go abroad, because the government didn't allow them to do so. And that's that.

Quote:
If we were to talk only about players who are born in Latvia then Girgensons could not only be as good as but has the potential of becoming even greater than Ozolins and he'll be drafted this year. Also by 2014 draft we can have quite high round pick's. So If we are talking about players simply born in Latvia then I don't see a dry spell and if your saying that we are getting such caliber players to seldom, well, we have a small country. If we are talking about Latvian system developing players like Girgensons all the way to NHL, then I don't see this dry spell getting fixed in any close future.
All Latvian potential hockey talent will search for opportunities abroad and won't stay in Latvia.
Girgensons is a kid playing in a junior league, don't compare him to Ozoliņš or Irbe. And the discussion is not about getting a couple of decent draft picks, it's about developing world-class talent, about players who're among the very best in their position.

Furthermore, Girgensons also developed as a hockey player in Latvia, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Girgensons went to NA at the age of 15, Ozoliņš went to NA at the age of 18 or 19. So if Girgensons isn't a product of Latvian hockey and Ozoliņš is a product of Soviet hockey, how do you figure?

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12-25-2011, 11:13 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Sakaarnis View Post
Not quite sure why are we even arguing here. Like it or not, Latvia was part of Soviet Union up untill 1991. We can spend hours discussing terminology, but as i see it, everything (including Latvijas Bērzs etc.) were part of that system. Irbe and Ozolinsh developed under that system, Soviet system.
Please, define the term 'Soviet system'.

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12-26-2011, 12:10 AM
  #139
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Please, define the term 'Soviet system'.
I can repeat that we can argue for hours about terminology of 'Soviet system', but since you asked I will give a ittle more detailed view on what I said above.

As kids, both Irbe and Ozolinsh (as well as loads of other well known players) started out in Riga Secondary School Nr.55. Sure, Andris Silins had a big part in setting up that hockey class, but were not talking about private capital on behalf of a hockey coach and enthusiast. It was a state (Latvian SSR) structure, hence system. Later on they went to play for different youth teams like Latvijas Bērzs or RASMS. Those all were under Dinamo pyramid, and I hope you will not argue that old Dinamo was product of Soviet union.

I can go on in further detail, but I hope you get my idea of 'Soviet system'. Remember, I'm not talking about 'soviet style' of play.


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12-26-2011, 12:21 AM
  #140
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Girgensons went to NA at the age of 15, Ozoliņš went to NA at the age of 18 or 19. So if Girgensons isn't a product of Latvian hockey and Ozoliņš is a product of Soviet hockey, how do you figure?
Ozoliņš went there as a pro, as a young player to make big bucks and conquer the hockey world. Girgensons went there as a prep student to develop his game with a hope of one day making it pro. There is a difference, however i would not call Girgensons a product of NA hockey system. If he ever makes it pro, i'm sure he would have alot of good things to say about his first coach Gunars Krastins, aswell as his time in NA.

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12-26-2011, 04:50 AM
  #141
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I can go on in further detail, but I hope you get my idea of 'Soviet system'. Remember, I'm not talking about 'soviet style' of play.
Well, your argument can be boiled down to "the development of Irbe and Ozoliņš as hockey players was co-financed by the government of the Soviet Union". If that's what you're saying and that is your idea of "products of the Soviet hockey school", I obviously don't have a problem with that.

The thing is that people often use the term 'Soviet hockey school' as a some sort of an abstract term to describe an allegedly state-wide, completely uniform way of playing, coaching and understanding hockey. If you're born in the USSR and you play hockey, you must be a member of some mysterious Soviet system. What is this genetically inherited system everyone's talking about?

It's a bit ridiculous. Every school and every coach have their own methods. And if it wasn't for the generations-long Latvian hockey heritage, there would be no Irbe or Ozoliņš.

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12-28-2011, 12:57 AM
  #142
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Damn, the schedule is really hating us.

4 games, 2 back to backs, with relatively weaker team facing us in the 2nd days of those back to backs

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12-28-2011, 04:23 AM
  #143
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4 games, 2 back to backs, with relatively weaker team facing us in the 2nd days of those back to backs
That's what happens with newcomers

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12-28-2011, 05:25 AM
  #144
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The thing is that people often use the term 'Soviet hockey school' as a some sort of an abstract term to describe an allegedly state-wide, completely uniform way of playing, coaching and understanding hockey. If you're born in the USSR and you play hockey, you must be a member of some mysterious Soviet system. What is this genetically inherited system everyone's talking about?
well, I hope you do know that Viktor Tikhonov's methods (though modified) are still widely used in Latvian hockey, Yurzinov also has left an impact on Latvian hockey.
It's not just some abstract term- if we talk about teaching hockey to children, where do you think our coaches got ideas from in 70s? We were still a part of Soviet Union so Soviet Union coaches shared these ideas among themselves only, we learned a lot from CSKA or Dynamo Moscow systems, on how to train players etc.

Like it or not Viktor Tikhonov and Yurzinov are a big part of Latvian hockey history and what they did with Dinamo Riga is still used in many places, including the preparation of our U20 team....

Maybe if we talk about Balderis, he was still coached by old generation of Latvian hockey school of 1930s and early postwar years but Irbe and Ozolinsh were coached from young age using ideas of Soviet (Russian) hockey and they matured playing on teams coached by students of Viktor Tikhonov and others. So it's not like it's some kind of ''abstract term''... Even nowadays imho Latvian coaches are learning more from Russia than the West and many say that it's a bad thing as we don't try different appraoches to hockey more.

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12-28-2011, 06:28 AM
  #145
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Damn, the schedule is really hating us.

4 games, 2 back to backs, with relatively weaker team facing us in the 2nd days of those back to backs
Then again we could be in other group altogether...

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12-28-2011, 08:01 AM
  #146
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well, I hope you do know that Viktor Tikhonov's methods (though modified) are still widely used in Latvian hockey, Yurzinov also has left an impact on Latvian hockey.
I'm not challenging that. But that's not a Soviet school, that's Tikhonov's school. Not every coach was like that and not every coach over here has picked up his methods. Beresņevs and Znaroks probably did, but are they a cornerstone of our hockey? Do they work with our kids? No.

Quote:
It's not just some abstract term- if we talk about teaching hockey to children, where do you think our coaches got ideas from in 70s? We were still a part of Soviet Union so Soviet Union coaches shared these ideas among themselves only, we learned a lot from CSKA or Dynamo Moscow systems, on how to train players etc.
When and how did they share those ideas and what exactly did they learn from CSKA? What methods did they borrow from them and why do you call it a Soviet school?

Quote:
Like it or not Viktor Tikhonov and Yurzinov are a big part of Latvian hockey history and what they did with Dinamo Riga is still used in many places, including the preparation of our U20 team....
Once again, haven't said they aren't. More importantly though - what is used in the preparation of our U20 team?

Quote:
Maybe if we talk about Balderis, he was still coached by old generation of Latvian hockey school of 1930s and early postwar years but Irbe and Ozolinsh were coached from young age using ideas of Soviet (Russian) hockey and they matured playing on teams coached by students of Viktor Tikhonov and others.
What ideas? Also - when did they start playing with Tikhonov?

Quote:
So it's not like it's some kind of ''abstract term''...
Well, it is an abstract term until someone's proven that it isn't.

Quote:
Even nowadays imho Latvian coaches are learning more from Russia than the West and many say that it's a bad thing as we don't try different appraoches to hockey more.
Honestly, I'm not being smart here, enlighten someone that hasn't been a hockey player - what exactly are they learning from Russia?

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12-28-2011, 08:03 AM
  #147
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Please, define the term 'Soviet system'.
Orginized attack from your zone involving all 5 players and puck puck posession. To breakd down:

Constant puck possession, never dump and chaise, terrific skating. Excellent execution, a lot of emphasis on skills, shooting, even bigger on quick releasing of passes and receiving passes. 90% of wrist shots almost never s slap shot. Not playing checking or go for the big hit, stay in position use yoru stick. Do not get dirty in corners. Play discipline hockey, always. Perfect power play for the most part, deadly 5:3. 8-10 hours of on and off ice training. 3 practices a day. Show no emotions for the most part, win the game.

Read something about Anatoly Tarasov and Tikhonov. Re-watch Red Wings in 90th when they had Konstantinov, Fetisov Larionov, Fedorov, Kozlov true soviet 'product'. Find Scotty Bowman's interviews about these 5 players.
Old school Soviet Hockey Petrov, Mikhailov, Kharllamov after Summit Series new breed like Larionov, Fedorov, Fetisov, Kontsantinov played better checking game.

Do some reading if you are too young. It's not a Bigfoot, Soviet System existed for a long time, worked for a looong time and was VERY successful for a long time.. All countries in Europe including North America took a lot from it.
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Well, it is an abstract term until someone's proven that it isn't.
lol. Ok pal. Prove you what?


Last edited by Kaktus*: 12-28-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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12-28-2011, 09:01 AM
  #148
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Orginized attack from your zone involving all 5 players and puck puck posession. To breakd down:

Constant puck possession, never dump and chaise. Excellent execution, a lot of emphasis on skills, shooting, even bigger on quick releasing of passes and receiving passes. 90% of wrist shots almost never s slap shot. Not playing checking or go for the big hit, stay in position use yoru stick. Do not get dirty in corners. Play discipline hockey, always. Perfect power play for the most part, deadly 5:3. 8-10 hours of on and off ice training. 3 practices a day. Show no emotions for the most part, win the game.
Now that I've first heard something that could be a considered a definition of the term, how does this apply to Irbe, Ozoliņ or modern Latvian hockey in general?

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12-28-2011, 09:29 AM
  #149
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Now that I've first heard something that could be a considered a definition of the term, how does this apply to Irbe, Ozoliņš or modern Latvian hockey in general?
There is no such term as 'Latvian hockey' on international level. It does not exist. Yu play hybrid of two styles North American as in Canadian (not American) and Soviets style.

If you are such a huge fan of Irbe you should know where he played, how he played how he was developed, who he was trained under and in which system, same goes for Ozoliņš.

I would like to add that Russians tought NHL how to be profesionals. That CSKA teams under Tarasov and Tikhonov were professional hockey players that trained night and day but were paid by goverment/army. Only difference really.


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12-28-2011, 11:02 AM
  #150
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Now that I've first heard something that could be a considered a definition of the term, how does this apply to Irbe, Ozoliņš or modern Latvian hockey in general?
Well, it doesn't apply to ''modern Latvian hockey'' at all, I'd say. Nowadays coaches are starting to learn from North Americans, Finns etc.
But if you watch 1997 national team (old Dinamo Riga) play, how Vitolins, Belavskis and other players from that era played, you can see all those things ''nitro'' mentioned... These guys hardly made bad quality shots, they never dump and chase.... and Ozolins and Irbe grew playing hockey in that system, learning hockey in that system.

What exactly did they learn from CSKA and Dynamo Moscow? Tikhonov came here from Dynamo Moscow so I think he introduced something here too (and players/ coaches learned from him), when players ended playing career they started to teach hockey to children and used the same methods. Of course, every coach is different but still the style was uniform and known very well. Anyway, you can ask that U20 team doctor Jānis Kvēps (or read in his recently published book) - he was there as the team doctor when Tikhonov came to Dinamo Riga and has seen everything in Latvian hockey from that time to nowadays, how it developed.

Nowadays, as it was already mentioned, we don't play only Soviet hokey and nobody plays only Soviet hockey now, Girgensons, Karsums (to an extent) played North American style already when he was in Latvia so he had no problem adjusting while, say Rihards Bukarts and Egle from younger generation are more like Soviet style players and for them it might be harder to adjust. It's much more varied now.


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