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Does Torrey Mitchell know he is useless??

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12-05-2011, 10:00 AM
  #1
FeedingFrenzy
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Does Torrey Mitchell know he is useless??

Dear DW, Please trade him now. That would be an excellent Christmas present for this Sharks fan. I am tired of watching him butcher any offensive chance he gets, his lack of skill and touch are terribly evident, and he is bringing down the 3rd line. I really do wonder what kind of player Torrey thinks himself to be?

I'd like to see Benny given a chance with McGinn/Hanguns. Ginner and Benny have played together plus it gives the 3rd line some more scoring pop. Benny across the board is better suited for 3rd line duties than Mr. Mitchell will ever be. Torrey at this point should be traded,waived or sent to the AHL, he's dead weight..

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12-05-2011, 10:03 AM
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Been saying this forever. The only thing he does well (or ok at least) is backcheck.

His offense is terrible, he can't control the puck, he skates wildly. Needs AHL time.

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12-05-2011, 10:23 AM
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Proposal on the trade board I offered to send Murray to Tampa for Downie, let's just bundle Mitchy in that deal. We don't even have to tell Tampa, we'll just put him on the plane and surprise!

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12-05-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Proposal on the trade board I offered to send Murray to Tampa for Downie, let's just bundle Mitchy in that deal. We don't even have to tell Tampa, we'll just put him on the plane and surprise!
I laughed out at work. People looked at me funny!

I really hope Murray turns it around. He has been a big disappointment so far this year. Main reason I think the Murray-Boyle partnership should be broken off because both of them are low on confidence and need to be paired with someone else. Once they get their games back put them back together.

One reason I really dont want to see Murray go is because he is one of our few Dmen who actually is physical and slows the opposition down.

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12-05-2011, 10:30 AM
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Benn Ferriero is not better than Mitchell. He'd be up here if he was. DW + TM are icing the best team we have.

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12-05-2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Benn Ferriero is not better than Mitchell. He'd be up here if he was. DW + TM are icing the best team we have.
I don't think so. I think Ferriero deserves a shot on the McGinn line. Mitchell, whether he is "better" or not, is not producing. Ferriero has produced when he has been given the chance.

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12-05-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SFtoBoston View Post
I don't think so. I think Ferriero deserves a shot on the McGinn line. Mitchell, whether he is "better" or not, is not producing. Ferriero has produced when he has been given the chance.
I think that's just because Ferreiro gets to play with Couture and Clowe whenever he's here. He's a fine injury fill-in, but I'd hate to see him come up and block us from getting a real 3rd line solution.

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12-05-2011, 11:09 AM
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Torrey Mitchell is a 4th liner playing a 3rd line role. Instead of trading away Mitchell for nothing we should be trying to acquire a 3rd liner to replace him. I'd replace Desjardins/Murray on the 4th line. Ferriero is great for the first 3-5 games and then always tails off, and I just don't think he's ready to log important minutes on a consistent basis.

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12-05-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
Torrey Mitchell is a 4th liner playing a 3rd line role. Instead of trading away Mitchell for nothing we should be trying to acquire a 3rd liner to replace him. I'd replace Desjardins/Murray on the 4th line. Ferriero is great for the first 3-5 games and then always tails off, and I just don't think he's ready to log important minutes on a consistent basis.
Desjardins is a much better 4th liner than Mitchell. Generally 4th liners in the NHL today need to be big bodies who can cycle in the offensive zone, fight for pucks, and play as physical as possible against the opposing team. The best thing a 4th line can do is wear out the other team. Ours does this extremely well. I wouldn't touch the 4th line, its the one consistent line doing it's job correctly.

Mitchell is a 3rd liner without the skill to be a 3rd liner. He is pushed off the puck too easily and doesn't have the puck control skills to make up for that. He is defensively responsible, but again that is totally negated when a bigger player simply shoves him out of the way. Watch the next game and you'll see, he's like a boy among men out there. He's fast, and that's about it. McGinn is fast too, and he also hits hard and has a good wrister.

Downie is struggling this season, but he'd make a perfect 3rd liner for us. He's cheap, not a UFA, and brings another player with physical play, agitation, and scoring potential. If Tampa is willing to move him, I'd seriously consider it.

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12-05-2011, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SFtoBoston View Post
I don't think so. I think Ferriero deserves a shot on the McGinn line. Mitchell, whether he is "better" or not, is not producing. Ferriero has produced when he has been given the chance.
Mitchell and McGinn are producing at relatively the same rates. The difference is I think there is only room on the third line for one of them, and right now McGinn is the better option as he adds that physical aspect and is showing a better nose for the net (but not much better).

Ideally you want your third liners to product in the 30-40 pt range - something the Sharks are sorely lacking in both Mitchell and McGinn, which brings me back to my point that there is really only room for 1 of them on that line.

Candidates who fit that 30-40 pt range:

Frans Nielsen - centering the 2nd line on the NYI, Nielsen is a great 3rd liner playing a 2nd line position. He's fast, can PK, and can play the pp. He is a perfect replacement for Mitchell, as he brings most of the qualities Mitchell does with just more of a nose for the net. His cap hit is also in the 500k range, so it doesn't mess up our cap management.

My biggest concern is that he is capable of those 40 pts, but is that because he's been on NYI's 2nd line, and their PP?


Mikael Sammuelsson (I'm sort of 50/50 on this. The pro's on Sammuelsson are that he is familiar playing in a puck possession system. He can play the powerplay, and he produces in the playoffs at a better rate than his regular season. The negative being that he is somewhat slow, and I'm not sure how effective our third line can be with him and Zeus put together. He doesn't belong on the 4th either.)

Tuomo Ruutu - already been discussed so I won't. He has a high cap hit of 3.8 mil, and he is having a down year.

I suppose there are others out there as well, but they would require more than picks/prospects, and are on longer terms than 1 year. Also, I'm really looking forward to seeing Sheppard, but my expectations aren't high at all.

On the flip side, here's the point totals of some of the Cup favorite teams' third lines. In all totals cases I used the lesser total (IE Malhotra's numbers over a theoretically better Raymond, or Johansson's numbers over Laich, even though daily faceoff has Laich listed as the 3rd line C, Johansson had the lesser point totals so I used them)

CHI:
Marcus Kruger - 7 pts in 26 games this year. He's a rookie, so it's a bit of a wild card.
Bolland -11 pts/23 games. last year 37 pts in 61 games.
Michael Frolik - 9 pts/25 games. Last year had 38 pts. This year he is on pace for about 30 pts, a bit of a drop.

Total is 27pts/74gp, or .365 pts/game

VAN:
Cody Hodgson - 12 pts/26 games. Rookie
Jannik Hansen - 12 pts/26 games. Last year had 29 pts.
Mason Raymond - 39 pts last year, 53 the year before. This year is a wild card based on his injury.
You could also add Malhotra to this list as well at 7 pts/26 games.

Total is 31pts/78gp, or .397 pts/game (with the boost of having Raymond on the 3rd line instead of Malhotra, as I did his totals.

PIT:

Matt Cooke: 11 pts/27 games
Jordan Staal: 18 pts/25 games
Tyler Kennedy: 10 pts/16 games

Totals: 39 pts/ 68 gp, or .574 pts/game (damn impressive, but possibly padded a bit by Staal being on the pp and playing top 6 minutes while Malkin/Crosby were out)

WAS:
Jason Chimera - 16 pts/25 games
Joel Ward - 9 pts/ 24 games
Marcus Johansson - 13 pts / 24 games
Brooks Laich - 15 pts/ 25 games

Total is 38pts/ 73 gp, or .521 pts/game

Laich and Johansson seem to be alternating between 2C/3C.


In comparison, the Sharks are:

Torrey Mitchell - 5 pts/20 games
Zeus - 7 pts/22 games
McGinn - 6 pts/ 23 games

Sharks are: 18pts/65 gp, or .277 pts/game.... terrible.


Last edited by BrianSmith: 12-05-2011 at 11:47 AM.
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12-05-2011, 11:42 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
Torrey Mitchell is a 4th liner playing a 3rd line role. Instead of trading away Mitchell for nothing we should be trying to acquire a 3rd liner to replace him.
IMO Torrey Mitchell has 4th line skills in a 2nd line body, which should equal AHL. He must be one hell of a good locker room guy to still be here. I'm shocked that he has not improved his game at all since he returned from the leg injury. Last season I thought he was poised to break out, but he just doesn't seem to be getting any better at anything and I agree that he is killing that line.

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12-05-2011, 11:49 AM
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IMO Torrey Mitchell has 4th line skills in a 2nd line body, which should equal AHL. He must be one hell of a good locker room guy to still be here. I'm shocked that he has not improved his game at all since he returned from the leg injury. Last season I thought he was poised to break out, but he just doesn't seem to be getting any better at anything and I agree that he is killing that line.
Mitchell strikes me as a player who needs a change of scenery to succeed - if at all. However, under the Sharks system, he isn't and won't succeed, as he just doesn't have a place really and his upside becomes less and less with each passing year.

IMO management is waiting on Sheppard to see how he is, but given the team's current state I think they may rush things and make a move before seeing Sheppard if things get out of hand.

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12-05-2011, 11:54 AM
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Sheppard can't help us this year. If they're waiting on him before they make a move, then we're effffed.

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12-05-2011, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Sheppard can't help us this year. If they're waiting on him before they make a move, then we're effffed.
I don't think they're waiting on Sheppard for anything either, I'm guessing they see him (if it turns out he can actually play decent hockey this year) as a 'cherry on top of the sundae'.

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12-05-2011, 11:59 AM
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I don't think they're waiting on Sheppard for anything either, I'm guessing they see him (if it turns out he can actually play decent hockey this year) as a 'cherry on top of the sundae'.
If they aren't waiting on Sheppard then they better make a move fast.

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12-05-2011, 12:09 PM
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If they aren't waiting on Sheppard then they better make a move fast.
Why do they need to make a move fast?

Is the 3rd line good enough right now? Nope - but, IMO, they are NOT the problem right now. If the Sharks are going to make a move "fast" to fix their current problems you're looking at trading Boyle, Murray, Demers...and this fan is willing to give them the time to figure it out.

I'd be fine moving Mitchell for an upgrade, I just don't see much a market for him right now - there might be one for him (likely with a pick) closer to the trade deadline when teams who might not be making the playoffs are more willing to make moves.

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12-05-2011, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Why do they need to make a move fast?

Is the 3rd line good enough right now? Nope - but, IMO, they are NOT the problem right now. If the Sharks are going to make a move "fast" to fix their current problems you're looking at trading Boyle, Murray, Demers...and this fan is willing to give them the time to figure it out.

I'd be fine moving Mitchell for an upgrade, I just don't see much a market for him right now - there might be one for him (likely with a pick) closer to the trade deadline when teams who might not be making the playoffs are more willing to make moves.
Their third line is bottom of the league. It needs help and is a glaring problem. Going by DW's statements about last year, we need to make a move soon.

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12-05-2011, 12:13 PM
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If they aren't waiting on Sheppard then they better make a move fast.
I like Nielson and I like Downie (really warming up to that one) but both of them would likely require moving a d-man as that is what both teams need. At this point I would kind of prefer to move Murray over Braun as Braun has long term potential and if Murray (who is already incredibly slow) is slowing down, he's going to fall off a cliff pretty quickly here. Plus he's a UFA shortly and likely not re-signed anyway.

That leave's us with a group like:

Marleau - Thronton - Pavelski
Clowe - Couture - Havlat
McGinn - Handzus - Downie/Nielson
Winchester - Desjardins - Murray
Mitchell, Sheppard

Vlasic - Burns
Vandermeer - Boyle
Braun/White - Demers
Bruan/White, Petrecki, Irwin...

If Murray does not improve, we really are not any worse off, if he does, our defense does take a hit. It's a gamble. I just don't know if either team is going to deal a player of that caliber for picks.

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12-05-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Why do they need to make a move fast?

Is the 3rd line good enough right now? Nope - but, IMO, they are NOT the problem right now. If the Sharks are going to make a move "fast" to fix their current problems you're looking at trading Boyle, Murray, Demers...and this fan is willing to give them the time to figure it out.

I'd be fine moving Mitchell for an upgrade, I just don't see much a market for him right now - there might be one for him (likely with a pick) closer to the trade deadline when teams who might not be making the playoffs are more willing to make moves.
How do you come to that conclusion? The only one who gets traded from that group possibly is Murray, and this year is NOT the year, and especially for a 3rd line upgrade. You wouldn't trade Murray on an all time low in value. That's just bad asset management. Same with Boyle.

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12-05-2011, 12:18 PM
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I like Nielson and I like Downie (really warming up to that one) but both of them would likely require moving a d-man as that is what both teams need. At this point I would kind of prefer to move Murray over Braun as Braun has long term potential and if Murray (who is already incredibly slow) is slowing down, he's going to fall off a cliff pretty quickly here. Plus he's a UFA shortly and likely not re-signed anyway.

That leave's us with a group like:

Marleau - Thronton - Pavelski
Clowe - Couture - Havlat
McGinn - Handzus - Downie/Nielson
Winchester - Desjardins - Murray
Mitchell, Sheppard

Vlasic - Burns
Vandermeer - Boyle
Braun/White - Demers
Bruan/White, Petrecki, Irwin...

If Murray does not improve, we really are not any worse off, if he does, our defense does take a hit. It's a gamble. I just don't know if either team is going to deal a player of that caliber for picks.
I'm hesitant to trade Murray. He's been playing like complete crap lately, but he is one of the few Dmen that we have on an incredibly soft Dcore who can hit and play mean.

I actually don't see our D as being as big a problem alone - our D problems stem more from our TEAM d, as opposed to just the d core. Forwards are slow to the puck, losing one on one battles, not back checking hard enough, and leaving our d zone early which handcuffs our own dmen.

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12-05-2011, 12:19 PM
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How do you come to that conclusion? The only one who gets traded from that group possibly is Murray, and this year is NOT the year, and especially for a 3rd line upgrade. You wouldn't trade Murray on an all time low in value. That's just bad asset management. Same with Boyle.
You said DW needs to make a trade fast and trading Mitchell for an upgrade on the 3rd line isn't going to fix the disaster that is 1/2 of the defense right now, that was my point. And I never said I'm interested in trading any of them.

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12-05-2011, 12:25 PM
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How do you come to that conclusion? The only one who gets traded from that group possibly is Murray, and this year is NOT the year, and especially for a 3rd line upgrade. You wouldn't trade Murray on an all time low in value. That's just bad asset management. Same with Boyle.
I think you are underestimating his value. He's had a slow start, but teams are going to be willing to forgive that. He is seen around the league still as one of the most punishing d-men in the league. I think you would still get very solid value for him, but wait too long, and if he continues to suck, you might shoot yourself in the foot.

Lets put it another way. Right now the Sharks are still winning a lot of games. Sure they are closer than they should be, and the are losing games they should not lose (and they have some disturbing stat trends, like the PK), but we are still in fact going to make the playoffs. That's with Murray putting 4 goals in himself just in the first quarter of the season, and Boyle playing like garbage too. Vandermeer has outplayed Murray, as has Braun and Demers is rounding back into form too. If you replaced Murray right now with any of those 3, you are going to better off (right now). If Murray was playing at previous years level (he was best two seasons ago imo) then yes, considerable downgrade, but as of right now, if he doesn't improve... That's the question though. Is he declining, or is he slumping?

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12-05-2011, 12:40 PM
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I'm hesitant to trade Murray. He's been playing like complete crap lately, but he is one of the few Dmen that we have on an incredibly soft Dcore who can hit and play mean.

I actually don't see our D as being as big a problem alone - our D problems stem more from our TEAM d, as opposed to just the d core. Forwards are slow to the puck, losing one on one battles, not back checking hard enough, and leaving our d zone early which handcuffs our own dmen.
They are absolutely a problem, we just have multiple problems and the question is where to start. Here is how i see it.

- 1st line is solid, it will come around, leave it alone. Marleau - Thornton - Pavelski could be the best line in hockey if they get their chemistry together.

- 2nd line is solid. Again, one of the best 2nd lines in hockey personnel wise. Leave it alone.

1) 3rd line is a mess. Handzus is good, but slow. Mitchell is fast, but ineffective. McGinn is big, fast, but inconsistent. Mitchell provides the least bang for the buck and is a UFA next season. He needs to be replaced, there is really no hope in my mind of that line ever working. McGinn is playing better right now, but he could easily be replaced as well if he starts to struggle again. We have Sheppard as an option as a backup, but a new player needs to be brought in to that line, sooner the better (chemistry wise).

- 4th line is doing its job, leave it alone.

- Vlasic - Burns = Don't mess with it. Vlasic is our best defensemen to start the season and Burns is getter better every game. By the playoffs I expect these two to have cemented themselves as our top pairing for the future.

2) Murray - Boyle = Both are struggling considerably, and they are killing each others confidence and causing a downward spiral. The immediate answer is to mix them with another partner (that's is playing well) and see who starts to recover (so you can tell who the bigger issue is). I suspect it's Murray, but time will tell. Boyle has a much deeper skill-set and should be able to adapt his game better to a decline than Murray.

- Vandermeer - Demers = Vandermeer has played quite well, and Demers is getting his confidence back. Let them be, they'll be fine.

- White, Braun = Braun has outplayed Murray in my estimation, at both ends of the ice. White is playing at about the same level as Murray.

3) PK - I believe we have the personnel. This is a coaching issue plain and simple. Get that figured out, replace people, whatever, but we don't need to bring in different players to fix this. The entire team is blowing it on the PK, not just one group, one new player is not going to fix that. Fire the assistants, or hire a 3rd assistant, i don't care, but bring in someone that can coach special teams.

So we need a 3rd liners, and our 2nd defensive pairing is struggling. The PK is unrelated to the players. That seems pretty easy to fix in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
You said DW needs to make a trade fast and trading Mitchell for an upgrade on the 3rd line isn't going to fix the disaster that is 1/2 of the defense right now, that was my point. And I never said I'm interested in trading any of them.
I don't care about trading Mitchell, bench him or waive him for all I care, just get someone else in on that 3rd line. I agree Mitchell has no value, we are going to have to trade something at some point to address the issue, I have NO hope that it will work itself out. Better to fix it now and see where you are at so you can make another tweak if necessary at the deadline. Get the train on the tracks basically and then see how it performs.

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12-05-2011, 12:51 PM
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No, he does not because he is not useless. Hustle, forcheck, speed, work ethic...

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12-05-2011, 12:54 PM
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They are absolutely a problem, we just have multiple problems and the question is where to start. Here is how i see it.

- 1st line is solid, it will come around, leave it alone. Marleau - Thornton - Pavelski could be the best line in hockey if they get their chemistry together.

- 2nd line is solid. Again, one of the best 2nd lines in hockey personnel wise. Leave it alone.

1) 3rd line is a mess. Handzus is good, but slow. Mitchell is fast, but ineffective. McGinn is big, fast, but inconsistent. Mitchell provides the least bang for the buck and is a UFA next season. He needs to be replaced, there is really no hope in my mind of that line ever working. McGinn is playing better right now, but he could easily be replaced as well if he starts to struggle again. We have Sheppard as an option as a backup, but a new player needs to be brought in to that line, sooner the better (chemistry wise).

- 4th line is doing its job, leave it alone.

- Vlasic - Burns = Don't mess with it. Vlasic is our best defensemen to start the season and Burns is getter better every game. By the playoffs I expect these two to have cemented themselves as our top pairing for the future.

2) Murray - Boyle = Both are struggling considerably, and they are killing each others confidence and causing a downward spiral. The immediate answer is to mix them with another partner (that's is playing well) and see who starts to recover (so you can tell who the bigger issue is). I suspect it's Murray, but time will tell. Boyle has a much deeper skill-set and should be able to adapt his game better to a decline than Murray.

- Vandermeer - Demers = Vandermeer has played quite well, and Demers is getting his confidence back. Let them be, they'll be fine.

- White, Braun = Braun has outplayed Murray in my estimation, at both ends of the ice. White is playing at about the same level as Murray.

3) PK - I believe we have the personnel. This is a coaching issue plain and simple. Get that figured out, replace people, whatever, but we don't need to bring in different players to fix this. The entire team is blowing it on the PK, not just one group, one new player is not going to fix that. Fire the assistants, or hire a 3rd assistant, i don't care, but bring in someone that can coach special teams.

So we need a 3rd liners, and our 2nd defensive pairing is struggling. The PK is unrelated to the players. That seems pretty easy to fix in my eyes.



I don't care about trading Mitchell, bench him or waive him for all I care, just get someone else in on that 3rd line. I agree Mitchell has no value, we are going to have to trade something at some point to address the issue, I have NO hope that it will work itself out. Better to fix it now and see where you are at so you can make another tweak if necessary at the deadline. Get the train on the tracks basically and then see how it performs.
Agree about PK, it needs to get more aggressive on the points. They need Havlat and Marleau separate and JT/Pavs is far from ideal as a lead unit as they are both slow. The top two units need Havlat and Marleau separately. Pavs and Marleau as the top two PK forwards need to be split to raise the guys with whom they play.

Interesting that Grier is retired and should be available. As a player, he sparked the rise in the Sharks PK numbers.

Two quibbles.

Shepperd is not the 3rd line answer. Too slow. His spot is if Handzus is injured. They just can't add more slow while taking away fast.

The first line is going to have issues if JT continues to exclusively target Pavs. Teams will catch up with the tape and end up disregarding Marleau. JT has a tendency to ignore the second sniper when he has two on his line. Too many times that he will go for the miracle pass rather than to the guy who is clearly open. We are seeing it in the numbers (Pavs/JT dropoff). If they keep it together, JT has to help it be more dynamic by going for the second option and shooting a bit more himself.

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