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I'll tell you what pisses me off!

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Old
09-21-2004, 01:45 AM
  #26
Iggy-4-50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bling

The lockout has everything to do with idiot Owners throwing good money after bad, fighting and clawing at each other to overpay for players. That is the reason for the higher payrolls. You are just spewing the league and Bettman's Company line....keep kissing Bettman ass little pawn.. :lol
Fact is it only took 4-5 of the owners to ruin it for the the others,one tool in NY or Toronto give a "good" player 9 mil and now the agents drool (i don't even have to mention arbitration)...so don't paint every one of them with the same brush!

Thats why the system needs to be idiot proofed!!

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09-21-2004, 01:53 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
Fact is it only took 4-5 of the owners to ruin it for the the others,one tool in NY or Toronto give a "good" player 9 mil and now the agents drool (i don't even have to mention arbitration)...so don't paint every one of them with the same brush!

Thats why the system needs to be idiot proofed!!
Well that's not true

Boston & Montreal + another mid-team was on the Marty Lapointe auction

Minnesota still gave 3M+$ for Rolston

You are now seeing a lot of teams giving 2 to 3M$ per season for a #5 D & it's certainly not the owners or the CBA's fault. if the guy's is your #5 , why would you give him 3M$ ? let the other GM's make that mistake. The problem is that you have more bad GM's (25) than good GM's (5).

# of good/bad gm is just numbers throwed around.

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09-21-2004, 02:13 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
Well that's not true

Boston & Montreal + another mid-team was on the Marty Lapointe auction

Minnesota still gave 3M+$ for Rolston

You are now seeing a lot of teams giving 2 to 3M$ per season for a #5 D & it's certainly not the owners or the CBA's fault. if the guy's is your #5 , why would you give him 3M$ ? let the other GM's make that mistake. The problem is that you have more bad GM's (25) than good GM's (5).

# of good/bad gm is just numbers throwed around.
Geeezz,i wonder why they were offering 3 mill,i'm talking about the retarded contracts 2 years before that..Lindros,Kariya,Sundin,Jagr and Sakic's contracts come to mind. I forget who started it but theres no way in hell Jagr would get 11 mill unless Sundin was getting 8-9 at the time,its crap and it snowballed after that, those type contracts ruined the CBA, not a bidding war over Lapoint or Rolston

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09-21-2004, 02:23 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
Geeezz,i wonder why they were offering 3 mill,i'm talking about the retarded contracts 2 years before that..Lindros,Kariya,Sundin,Jagr and Sakic's contracts come to mind. I forget who started it but theres no way in hell Jagr would get 11 mill unless Sundin was getting 8-9 at the time,its crap and it snowballed after that, those type contracts ruined the CBA, not a bidding war over Lapoint or Rolston
well to me , the common sense is that only a few players could earn 7 to 10M$ & deserve it or not is not the matter because it's just a few.

What concerns me is those idiots GM's that spend 3M$ on the new '' la mode'' 3rd line defensive artist & 2,5-3$ for #5 defensive-defensman with a little toughness.

Those are the type of contract that will kill a budget when you your 3rd line + D #5-6 cost you 10-15M$.

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09-21-2004, 02:40 AM
  #30
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Like I said , common sense prevail & not those journalism that throws numbers all around just to make people read or listen to it.

41 PLAYERS in the NHL is making 5,000,000$+ in the NHL !!
Only 19 out of 41 is making 7,000,000$+ in the NHL
Let's say that 10 more players will earn 5M$+ if there wasn't a lockout

I won't believe that 19 or 51 players is making the league look that bad. The problem is more in the 3rd liners-#5-6 D where they are now OVERPAID in my mind & which the GM's suddenly opens their WALLETS all summers & did a collusion to not offer anything to the 5M$+ type of players.

That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about bad management. No one in the NHL said anything about a 3,000,000$ - 2nd-3rd liner with only defensive abilities but they have a hard talk & make huge talk about what 19 players in the league ruing the economic state of the league.

That's now 1 year they are talking about how it's not working in thi CBA & all summers they spend ENORMOUS amount on 2nd-3rd line players & #4-5-6 Defensive-defenseman.

That's BAD MANAGEMENT. Right now, all the owners want is to make a good PR so they look good over the ''FANS'' while they don't have any intentions on

A) Trying to manage their franchise properly
B) Trying to be coherent with what they are truely do.

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09-21-2004, 04:21 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
I'm not asking you to have a sudden heart for the players but just for that sentence look at everything

1994-2004
Revenues 600M$ to 1,8G
Avg Salaries 700K to 1,8M$

Is it possible that it's just normal that salaries increase because revenues triple in the last 10 years ?

Just want you to take a look at it.

Statement like Players salaries double/triple without saying anything is like saying everything like the NHLCBANews.com. Big NUMBERS to impress with no substance. Just sensationalism.
ok maybe you can answer this then. If wages and revenues have both tripled then where is the problem?

If it is as simple as that why is there such a big stink being made? I doubt that the owners have decided to lock the players out and risk losing the season just because they are gready and want more cash in their pockets. Common sense says there is a bigger problem (like teams losing money), and they are trying to fix it.

With those numbers that you posted do you have any idea how much total operational expenses have gone up since 94?

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09-21-2004, 04:33 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
You are off base here. I did not say thet the Owners should open the doors and work under the old contract while negotiating...I am answering your snivel about "How come the players get to play and make money and the Owners can't have hockey games played and make money". I am telling you that they can and they choose not to.
Yeah it would be a great incentive for the players to negotiate if the owners kept paying them millions, and ran under the old CBA.

Obviously they choose not too! Who wouldn't in that situation? By the way you don't have to be a pawn of Bettman to realize that the current system is crap.

However, I would like to hear what you think, since you say that we are all Bettman's pawns. How would you fix the situation, or do you think it is just fine ?

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Old
09-21-2004, 04:39 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
I'm not asking you to have a sudden heart for the players but just for that sentence look at everything

1994-2004
Revenues 600M$ to 1,8G
Avg Salaries 700K to 1,8M$

Is it possible that it's just normal that salaries increase because revenues triple in the last 10 years ?

Just want you to take a look at it.

Statement like Players salaries double/triple without saying anything is like saying everything like the NHLCBANews.com. Big NUMBERS to impress with no substance. Just sensationalism.

The NHL has also expanded by 4 teams. That increases the NHL total revenue. Using the Avg Player salary then fails. Compare total salaries to total revenues or avg salary to avg revenue. The number of jobs is up by about 13-15% (ie 4 new teams)

The numbers (93-94 to 2002-2003) I've seen have avg payroll going up by 173% and players costs by 261%. Where did you get your numbers?

Now I don't trust the NHL stats, I think they are slanted. For example they list that average salary in 1993-4 as $558K and team salary as $14.4m. Now $14.4*24 teams is $345.6m, well short of the figure of $414m "player costs" used elsewhere though "Player Costs Include Salary, Bonuses and Other Benefits".

One thing is clear and that is player payroll has been increasing way faster than inflation and revenue. There needs to be a market correction of MUCH more than 5%.


Last edited by me2: 09-21-2004 at 04:57 AM.
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Old
09-21-2004, 05:34 AM
  #34
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you know what i say to the players. if your that greedy and are willing to play in europe for 10% of what you get from the nhl to hold us hostage then rot in hell and don't come back. we'll see how many yrs it will take before they start missing home and money. for those that support the players and are willing to give up house and home to watch them play i say grab the next boat out of here and go join them.

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Old
09-21-2004, 09:24 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytor4
you know what i say to the players. if your that greedy and are willing to play in europe for 10% of what you get from the nhl to hold us hostage then rot in hell and don't come back. we'll see how many yrs it will take before they start missing home and money. for those that support the players and are willing to give up house and home to watch them play i say grab the next boat out of here and go join them.
And I say you should grow up. They're not holding anyone hostage.

Again, this is a lockout, not a strike.

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Old
09-21-2004, 03:20 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatnik
does people really thinks that the owner will lowered their ticket prices if the players accept a salary cut?

The price are in fonction of the maximisation of the income, the CBA have nothing to do with it.
Then why did the Sabres cut ticket prices up to 22% for this upcoming season? B/C Golisano understands the idea of selling higher volume at a lower margin, and thereby increasing overall revenues. More fans at the games (= happier fans) should equate to better play at home which could turn an also-ran into a playoff team.

Think b4 you post, please.

Ta,

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Old
09-21-2004, 03:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechip
Then why did the Sabres cut ticket prices up to 22% for this upcoming season? B/C Golisano understands the idea of selling higher volume at a lower margin, and thereby increasing overall revenues. More fans at the games (= happier fans) should equate to better play at home which could turn an also-ran into a playoff team.
How do you know that the CBA influenced his decision? He probably thought he could increase revenue by lowering the prices. The CBA doesn't alter what he can charge for a ticket.

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09-21-2004, 04:48 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechip
Then why did the Sabres cut ticket prices up to 22% for this upcoming season? B/C Golisano understands the idea of selling higher volume at a lower margin, and thereby increasing overall revenues. More fans at the games (= happier fans) should equate to better play at home which could turn an also-ran into a playoff team.

Think b4 you post, please.

Ta,
Perhaps you should take your own advice. I highly doubt that most teams would follow the Sabres' lead once hockey resumes. In fact, the most profitable teams in the league have continued to increase ticket prices every year without fail, even though they have the most reason to lower them.

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Old
09-21-2004, 07:09 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
So suckers, how does it feel to be Gary Bettman's little pawns?
How does it feel to be clueless? You want to keep the status quo, hey that's your perogative. I'll talk to you in five years when the NHL folds - great plan.

Me, I'm behind the owners 100% on this one. I want the NHL to get back on its feet and grow and be viable for the long term. I want a system that is fair for all involved - including the players. Here's a news flash - the owners are not trying to screw the players, they will still be millionaires and if Bob and the boys would have little forsight they would realize that if they work with the owners to grow the game, their piece of the pie will grow with it. IMO, cost certainty is as much about controlling the owners as it is player's salaries.

How can the league even market itself nationally when 75% of revenues are going to the players?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the game is in big trouble. Here's a clue - take a look at attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales then compare them to the Big 3. Then take a look at NHL player's salaries. Let me save you the suspense, even though the NHL generates less attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales the NHLPA thinks their players deserve to get paid like the big 3. Have you checked your sports programming or newspaper's lately, especially in the states - the game is totally of the sports radar. The majority of sports fans don't care but the NHLPA thinks their player's should be paid like everyone cares.

The owner's are part to blame for this mess for sure but so is the system. At this point - blame doesn't matter - the survival of the NHL is whats at stake here. I don't feel the NHLPA recognizes the state of the game and I believe the owners do and are trying to fix it financially and then will work on the on ice product. These guys can't continue down the same path or the NHL will self destruct, its that simple.

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Old
09-21-2004, 07:35 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas
. In fact, the most profitable teams in the league have continued to increase ticket prices every year without fail, even though they have the most reason to lower them.
For sure, and that must be the goal of every team. Every owner is seeking ways to maximize wealth. They all want to charge as much as they can for tickets. Hiring a big name player often gives them the rationalization to do it. Bryden spent 10 long nagging years trying to convince Ottawa fans to pony up for NHL ticket prices. Every year the old family of 4 argument was trotted out. Until we went to semi's. All of a sudden its not such an issue. Funny how that works.

But when we go into rebuild mode some day, he is going to have to drop prices to match or he will see half empty arenas


If they really need to hike ticket prices to cover player costs, why dont they just hike ticket prices to cover their losses too if it works that easy.

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Old
09-21-2004, 07:44 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
How does it feel to be clueless? You want to keep the status quo, hey that's your perogative. I'll talk to you in five years when the NHL folds - great plan.

Me, I'm behind the owners 100% on this one. I want the NHL to get back on its feet and grow and be viable for the long term. I want a system that is fair for all involved - including the players. Here's a news flash - the owners are not trying to screw the players, they will still be millionaires and if Bob and the boys would have little forsight they would realize that if they work with the owners to grow the game, their piece of the pie will grow with it. IMO, cost certainty is as much about controlling the owners as it is player's salaries.

How can the league even market itself nationally when 75% of revenues are going to the players?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the game is in big trouble. Here's a clue - take a look at attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales then compare them to the Big 3. Then take a look at NHL player's salaries. Let me save you the suspense, even though the NHL generates less attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales the NHLPA thinks their players deserve to get paid like the big 3. Have you checked your sports programming or newspaper's lately, especially in the states - the game is totally of the sports radar. The majority of sports fans don't care but the NHLPA thinks their player's should be paid like everyone cares.

The owner's are part to blame for this mess for sure but so is the system. At this point - blame doesn't matter - the survival of the NHL is whats at stake here. I don't feel the NHLPA recognizes the state of the game and I believe the owners do and are trying to fix it financially and then will work on the on ice product. These guys can't continue down the same path or the NHL will self destruct, its that simple.
I was all set to have a good old debate with you about this whole situation when I saw you were a Blue Jackets fan. Now it all makes sense. Another fan of a whining little want-a-hand-out small market should-be- contracted team.

The lousy teams are all backing Bettman and the owners dream of parity so we can all watch the same boring assed hockey that teams like yours play. It is all about dumbing down the game to the lowest possible common denominator. It won't be the high salaries that kill hockey it will be the boredom and lack of excitement that kills hockey after every team is forced to become as bad as the worst team.

When players are passed around like this years puckslut and there is no loyalty or player identification with a particular team then we can all look back on this as the turning point when the fans and the league and the Owners conspired to destroy the game. Little pawns of Bettman I hold you personally responsible for this!

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Old
09-21-2004, 08:26 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
I was all set to have a good old debate with you about this whole situation when I saw you were a Blue Jackets fan. Now it all makes sense. Another fan of a whining little want-a-hand-out small market should-be- contracted team.
Wow - thanks for sparing me

Ping me when you wake up and smell what your shoveling.

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Old
09-21-2004, 11:18 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
How does it feel to be clueless? You want to keep the status quo, hey that's your perogative. I'll talk to you in five years when the NHL folds - great plan.

Me, I'm behind the owners 100% on this one. I want the NHL to get back on its feet and grow and be viable for the long term. I want a system that is fair for all involved - including the players. Here's a news flash - the owners are not trying to screw the players, they will still be millionaires and if Bob and the boys would have little forsight they would realize that if they work with the owners to grow the game, their piece of the pie will grow with it. IMO, cost certainty is as much about controlling the owners as it is player's salaries.

How can the league even market itself nationally when 75% of revenues are going to the players?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the game is in big trouble. Here's a clue - take a look at attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales then compare them to the Big 3. Then take a look at NHL player's salaries. Let me save you the suspense, even though the NHL generates less attendance, TV ratings and merchandise sales the NHLPA thinks their players deserve to get paid like the big 3. Have you checked your sports programming or newspaper's lately, especially in the states - the game is totally of the sports radar. The majority of sports fans don't care but the NHLPA thinks their player's should be paid like everyone cares.

The owner's are part to blame for this mess for sure but so is the system. At this point - blame doesn't matter - the survival of the NHL is whats at stake here. I don't feel the NHLPA recognizes the state of the game and I believe the owners do and are trying to fix it financially and then will work on the on ice product. These guys can't continue down the same path or the NHL will self destruct, its that simple.
Couldn't agree with you more. As you said the owners are the ones responsible for offering the initial high prices (or one or two owners actually), and for refusing to fight the players and buckling under and signing the last contract... but the players are crapping in their beds on this one by refusing to be realistic about their work environment. The whole agreement is simply BAD for hockey, and the sooner the players realize they can be extremely rich playing in a healthy productive league the better for all.

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Old
09-21-2004, 11:27 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
I was all set to have a good old debate with you about this whole situation when I saw you were a Blue Jackets fan. Now it all makes sense. Another fan of a whining little want-a-hand-out small market should-be- contracted team.

The lousy teams are all backing Bettman and the owners dream of parity so we can all watch the same boring assed hockey that teams like yours play. It is all about dumbing down the game to the lowest possible common denominator. It won't be the high salaries that kill hockey it will be the boredom and lack of excitement that kills hockey after every team is forced to become as bad as the worst team.

When players are passed around like this years puckslut and there is no loyalty or player identification with a particular team then we can all look back on this as the turning point when the fans and the league and the Owners conspired to destroy the game. Little pawns of Bettman I hold you personally responsible for this!
I've read this last statment a couple of times now... and exactly what are you saying? Bettman is orcastrating this for what reason? The guy was obviously wrong about expansion and viability in the southern markets... but who are his pawns? The players are the ones who reaped all the gold from his ideas ultimately... not the owners. He has created for them more jobs at much higher salaries. The guy may be a doofus, but to suggest that he is controlling everything is hogwash.

Bettman finally does the right thing for the league, and you're complaining about it?

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Old
09-22-2004, 02:55 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
I was all set to have a good old debate with you about this whole situation when I saw you were a Blue Jackets fan. Now it all makes sense. Another fan of a whining little want-a-hand-out small market should-be- contracted team.
One could say your a whinny large market fan who is clueless of the reality to the existing problems with the league as a whole. let me guess!! Toronto,Detroit? can't tell the difference anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
The lousy teams are all backing Bettman and the owners dream of parity so we can all watch the same boring assed hockey that teams like yours play. It is all about dumbing down the game to the lowest possible common denominator. It won't be the high salaries that kill hockey it will be the boredom and lack of excitement that kills hockey after every team is forced to become as bad as the worst team.
How is it boring if every team has a chance to compete on level ground?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bling
When players are passed around like this years puckslut and there is no loyalty or player identification with a particular team then we can all look back on this as the turning point when the fans and the league and the Owners conspired to destroy the game. Little pawns of Bettman I hold you personally responsible for this!
Yeah it really destroyed the NBA and NFL.
NBA....264% increase in fan support since the last CBA included a cap
NFL....292% increase in fan support...

If it wasn't for a certain retard in NY i'm sure MLB would have simular numbers (although i think it's popularity has grown anyway)

Parity makes the league stonger as a whole and the fans of the 4-5 rich teams who like to buy success can screw off for all i care.

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09-22-2004, 11:10 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pucks
I get up every morning and read about player X and player Y signing a contract in Europe or the AHL to play till the lockout is over. These players are signing contracts for 10% of what they normally will get paid in the NHL (give or take)

What really pisses me off is they will play for fans of other leagues for highly discounted prices, but for us North American fans who have made their wallets so fat it affects the blood supply to their brain, they hold us hostage and are unwilling to work out a reasonable solution to the CBA. They want their cake and eat it to.

To me at this point I have lost huge respect for the players and I feel more and more that they are just a bunch of muscle heads who can't think for themselves.

And wouldn't you be pissed if said player sat on his ass for four months and was out of shape when and if the season starts??
Personally, I'm glad to see the Wings players like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Fischer and Homer playing somewhere.
Young players need to play

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Old
09-22-2004, 11:23 PM
  #47
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It's funny to see people who probably doesn't make the 10th or even the 100th, probably never won't, defending those half brains. ******* wake up ! Poor poooooooooooor players , if their salaries drop by half, they won't be able to have their new Ferrari eh ? Yeah right... :lol

They're a bunch of morons trying to make fans complain for them... but hey, fortunately, some fans are just more intelligent than 'em... in fact, most of the fans... hum, perhaps... am I right or... ?

BUT at the same time, do we really need to be on owner's side ?? I mean, for most of these owners, their teams are just pricey toys. They have other occupations to gain enough money to feed their greedy ***. They must still pay the price for the greed they displayed... But do we need to always live in the past ? They made errors... can't they at least try to heal the wounds ??

You know what ? At the beginning of this conflict, neither sides interested me, cause they both seemed like a greedy bunch of ********. My opinion has changed. I listened to Bettman and Goodenow answering the fans, and although I never liked Bettman, I can say I HATE Goodenow... he's a real political worm who don't even care about US, the fans who PAYS for them. We won't accept a salary cap, cause it's evil, the NHL are terrorists who tries to prey on us... I saw that somewhere... anyway ! Even if their salaries are cut in half, they'll still make more than any of us can dream of.

Is it logic that these muscle-bound-pea-brained-miracle-on-ice-dancers make that much for, well, PLAYING hockey ? Hum...

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Old
09-23-2004, 02:21 AM
  #48
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Excellent post PurCHAOS. I completely agree.

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09-23-2004, 02:25 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrier
One of my own hockey teammates said last week he wants the NHL to break the players union, to declare the impasse, open the doors and say "come and get it!". No matter how you slice it, no matter what revenues the Blackhawks may be shadowing here and there, the players' share of the league's total take is excessive. John Saunders said as much on ESPN this past Sunday morning. Just comparing the average NHL salary to that of the NFL makes you shake your head. The gravy train simply cannot go on.
thats because the nlf players union got it up the ***

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09-23-2004, 02:30 AM
  #50
mr gib
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Join Date: Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
One could say your a whinny large market fan who is clueless of the reality to the existing problems with the league as a whole. let me guess!! Toronto,Detroit? can't tell the difference anyway.



How is it boring if every team has a chance to compete on level ground?



Yeah it really destroyed the NBA and NFL.
NBA....264% increase in fan support since the last CBA included a cap
NFL....292% increase in fan support...

If it wasn't for a certain retard in NY i'm sure MLB would have simular numbers (although i think it's popularity has grown anyway)

Parity makes the league stonger as a whole and the fans of the 4-5 rich teams who like to buy success can screw off for all i care.
however tv ratings continue to decline for the big three - i think the retard lives in wisconsin - ( bud selig )


Last edited by mr gib: 09-23-2004 at 10:37 AM.
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