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Old
12-07-2011, 10:39 AM
  #176
Agnostic
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
It says all we need to know when the difference between an 8th place Habs team and a cellar dweller Habs team is "stealing games they deserved to lose".

Par for the course going on 10 years now.
The truth is during that 10 years and beyond the Habs have had continuously solid goaltending , but they've been weak at centre. Fans (and apparently the GM as well) haven't noticed as 90 percent of the discussion here is about the defence and the goaltending.

the team will not be anything more than what it is until it gets better at centre.

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12-07-2011, 10:39 AM
  #177
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Price has been very good, but it is untrue to claim he's keeping the team afloat this year. In fact, the Habs have yet to steal a game they deserved to lose (the reverse has happened multiple times, as we well know, which is the main factor behind their rough start). When they've won, their skaters usually outplayed their opponent, often to a large degree, or at least matched them. They haven't been grossly outplayed all that often (more lately, unfortunately) but they've lost every time this has happened.
The Habs got a point against Columbus largely because of Price. Many of his temmates played very badly. The Habs also emerged with one or two points in other games this season because of him.

IMO you're arbitrarily stamping a Q.E.D on your subjective impressions. If you're truly a "MathMan," then prove your hypothesis by analyzing all the games the Habs have played this season. Since they were clearly outplayed in a number that weren't even close, Price's contributions one way or another in those games are outliers. It would be helpful if you highlighted those games in which defensive lapses or 5-on-3s left Price vulnerable.

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12-07-2011, 10:56 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Price has been very good, but it is untrue to claim he's keeping the team afloat this year. In fact, the Habs have yet to steal a game they deserved to lose (the reverse has happened multiple times, as we well know, which is the main factor behind their rough start). When they've won, their skaters usually outplayed their opponent, often to a large degree, or at least matched them. They haven't been grossly outplayed all that often (more lately, unfortunately) but they've lost every time this has happened.
Our club is 24th in goals scored. Without Price this team is a lottery pick this year. I don't care if we 'almost scored', I don't care if we've been 'unlucky' and I don't care if those goals were all 5 on 5. Bottom line is that we haven't scored this year and Price has been great for us. With average goaltending this team would be out of the playoff picture already.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
LG, check your definition of Superstar. Superstars are players who are consistently at the top of the league, year after year, and over time come up in "best-of" discussions, as in best-of-the-decade , best-in-the-playoffs, best-of-all-time, etc.
The guy is only 24 man. How can he be considered best of the decade? You can't ignore his age. Of course other goalies have accomplished more... they've been around longer. But Price already has 100 wins and he's not exactly playing for powerhouses either. I'm not sure what exactly you expect out of a 24 year old goaltender but Price has an incredible resume. Go compare other goalies by age and you won't find many that are better. You can't ask for much better with the clubs he's been in front of.

I'm telling you, he will be among the top three goalies (if not number one) for the 2010s decade... book it.
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Price is none of these things, in fact statistically he's unremarkable right now. Being 15th and 21st in the league in gaa and savepct combined with his lacklustre playoff last spring can't put him in the discussion of the leagues elite.

Having said that he's probably the most consistent Hab, but that's just as related to how the team has become a collection of mediocrity.

Price will not obtain any higher status in this league until he does something in the playoffs, unfortunately with this team that's not in the foreseeable future.
Carey Price is considered one of the best goalies in the league already. In my book that puts him at 'star' status at the very least. Go compare other goalies (BY AGE) side by side and he puts almost all of them to shame.

You want consistency from your goalie and Price has provided it. The only terrible stretch that he's had was when he came back too early from an injury in his 2nd season and played terrible for a few months, it derailed what was up until then a stellar season. Even in his 'nightmare' third season he still played well (I don't care what Jack Todd says) in front of a terrible team and managed a .912 save percentage.

He's got a career .916 save percentage and 100+ wins at 24 years old (very impressive when you consider his age, the clubs he's been on and how much he's already played.) Last year he came off a fantastic year and he's at .919 this season on a club that doesn't score and is comprised of a very, very green defense core.

There are very few goalies I'd rather have than him in my net. In fact, I can't think of any that I'd rather have. He's at the same level as Lundqvist. Thomas is better statistically but he's also on a far superior club and didn't even emerge as a starter until his 30s. Price is as good a goalie as you'll find in the league and I only see him getting better. And don't forget... he's been doing this in Montreal under enormous pressure. How many of those other goalies would've crumbled with the scrutiny that Price has faced? He's been amazing for us.

That's why it's such a shame that we've surrounded him with mediocrity.
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
We might have a shot this summer if Shea Weber hits UFA, he grew up a Habs fan as well. We will see how much the team is committed since we should have some cap space after Spacek, Gill and Campoli should all be gone
Maybe. I think Nashville would be nuts to let him go but I guess we'll see...


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 12-07-2011 at 11:27 AM.
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Old
12-07-2011, 11:01 AM
  #179
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You forgot Gomez!
I personnaly think that if the habs manage to sign Weber, they'll bury Gomez in the AHL

This season, even with 7.5 millions free cap space, we wouldn't be able to fill it

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12-07-2011, 11:17 AM
  #180
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We might have a shot this summer if Shea Weber hits UFA, he grew up a Habs fan as well. We will see how much the team is committed since we should have some cap space after Spacek, Gill and Campoli should all be gone
Weber is an RFA not UFA.

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12-07-2011, 11:34 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
It says all we need to know when the difference between an 8th place Habs team and a cellar dweller Habs team is "stealing games they deserved to lose".
This year the problem has not been failure to "steal games they deserve to lose". It's the reverse: "getting games they deserved to win stolen". That and 15+ million in injuries starting with game 2 and never letting up.

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12-07-2011, 11:49 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
This year the problem has not been failure to "steal games they deserve to lose". It's the reverse: "getting games they deserved to win stolen".
This year is just like any other... the problem is always the same. We don't score. We're 3rd worst in the East ahead of NJ and the Islanders for goals scored and the Devils have two games in hand.

Our top players have a ceiling of around 70 points and that's a problem that we refuse to address. It's hurt us for years and will continue to do so until we make personel changes on a real instead of superficial level.
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That and 15+ million in injuries starting with game 2 and never letting up.
Is it starting in game 2 or are we also factoring in Markov who's perpetually injured in there too? Also, its funny that you'd use dollars to reflect man games lost considering Gomez has been on the shelf. Dollars doesn't necessarily = production.

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12-07-2011, 11:54 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
This year the problem has not been failure to "steal games they deserve to lose". It's the reverse: "getting games they deserved to win stolen". That and 15+ million in injuries starting with game 2 and never letting up.
LMAO and the excuses keep coming.

Now it's getting games they deserved to win stolen by what? By luck I suppose? *looks at username and smirks*

This team doesn't have the talent, desire, or know-how to take high percentage scoring shots and fight for the positioning required to will rebounds in. That's why we'll always be in the bottom half the league in scoring. It has nothing to do with luck, this team is just not up to snuff sweetheart. Sorry .

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12-07-2011, 12:05 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
LMAO and the excuses keep coming.

Now it's getting games they deserved to win stolen by what? By luck I suppose? *looks at username and smirks*

This team doesn't have the talent, desire, or know-how to take high percentage scoring shots and fight for the positioning required to will rebounds in. That's why we'll always be in the bottom half the league in scoring. It has nothing to do with luck, this team is just not up to snuff sweetheart. Sorry .
You can dislike the team all you want, hate the management and be completely skeptical of any chances of us making the POs, but we lost a lot of games early on where we dominated the opponents. There's at least a handful of games where this happened. In some we even had more scoring chances than the opponents had shots.
Price wasn't so amazing earlier this year.
We lost a lot more points that we deserved to get than earn points we didn't deserve.

This doesn't mean we have a superstar team and all should be peachy. But we certainly deserve to at least be inside a PO spot.

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12-07-2011, 12:13 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
This year the problem has not been failure to "steal games they deserve to lose". It's the reverse: "getting games they deserved to win stolen". That and 15+ million in injuries starting with game 2 and never letting up.
This injury argument does not wash. Look at Pittsburgh last season. Great teams make up for their injuries and GREAT coaches don't use them as an excuse.

This team is middle of the road at best and with a good part of their veterans either hurt or playing like they are hurt they won't go far. IMO the problem is the play of Cammaleri and Gionta for starters along with the growing pains of Weber and Subban.I think the latter is trying to do too much.

Finally there is no such thing as luck. Every team gets bounces , bad calls. We do not get more than any other team.

I have always thought the chemistry on this team was very good but I think they are
starting to get frustrated with the line changes , misuse of assets and the complacency of the un-emotional Sudoku playing statue of a coach. I have never seen once get upset at a call or non-call. He just stands there with a stunned look on his face.

I really think him and PG need to go.

I was hoping when I came back from lunch that I would open the site and see that it had happened.There's always 4 pm.

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12-07-2011, 12:28 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by DougHarvey View Post
This injury argument does not wash. Look at Pittsburgh last season. Great teams make up for their injuries and GREAT coaches don't use them as an excuse.

This team is middle of the road at best and with a good part of their veterans either hurt or playing like they are hurt they won't go far. IMO the problem is the play of Cammaleri and Gionta for starters along with the growing pains of Weber and Subban.I think the latter is trying to do too much.

Finally there is no such thing as luck. Every team gets bounces , bad calls. We do not get more than any other team.

I have always thought the chemistry on this team was very good but I think they are
starting to get frustrated with the line changes , misuse of assets and the complacency of the un-emotional Sudoku playing statue of a coach. I have never seen once get upset at a call or non-call. He just stands there with a stunned look on his face.

I really think him and PG need to go.

I was hoping when I came back from lunch that I would open the site and see that it had happened.There's always 4 pm.
You are forgetting that Pittsburgh's 3rd centre is better than ANY centre that Habs have dressed in the last 15 years and that their defense is easily top 3. That has a lot to do with their coach receiving the necessary tools to build a solid team. Jacques Martin's best defenseman is Gorges ... (no, it isn't Subban. The guy is just awful this year).

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12-07-2011, 12:39 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Now it's getting games they deserved to win stolen by what? By luck I suppose? *looks at username and smirks*
Call it what you like; games like the last game in Boston where the Habs thoroughly dominated end-to-end yet lost by a goal have been entirely too common.

A taste of their own medicine, I suppose; back in 2009-2010 they seldom won much any other way, especially in the playoffs.

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This injury argument does not wash. Look at Pittsburgh last season. Great teams make up for their injuries and GREAT coaches don't use them as an excuse.
Life does not work this way. And to quote Gainey, "there are excuses, and there are explanations". Injuries are an explanation. But the media has hammered so much that "injuries should not be an excuse" that it ends up being ignored. But they only repeat the player perspective, and what makes sense from a player perspective can make for terrible outside analysis.

The notion that a team icing a 40 million lineup can be expected to perform at the same level as a team icing a 60 million lineup on a regular basis is silly on the face of it. Again, this should really be obvious. If it were consistently true, a GM would be well-advised to simply not spend that extra 20 million, and replace all their stars with replacement players -- the expected performance would be the same, but they'd save a mint. And if the Habs had started the season as a salary floor team on a constrained budget, no one would be surprised to see them at .500, surely?

So, of course the Habs injuries have been a big factor. With the amount they've had, particularly on the blueline, it'd be silly not to. We hear "every team has injuries so it's not an excuse" a lot, to which the response should be: "not like this".

The Habs have had to go down to the #11 guy on the defenseman depth chart. Let me reiterate that: for several games, the Habs have been forced to ice Hamilton's #4 defenseman. How can that not matter? How many teams have the depth to do that and remain competitive? And yet somehow the Habs managed to paste two clubs 4-0 while this was happening.

Of course, this implies that players such as Gomez and Markov provide significant to the Habs when they are in the lineup. While that should normally be obvious, a fairly large segment of the fans seems to be fanatically opposed to the idea. If you think that the players that the Habs have on the injured reserve are replacement-level, of course you'll think that the team should perform as well using Weber instead of Markov or Darche instead of Gomez.

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12-07-2011, 12:54 PM
  #188
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(no, it isn't Subban. The guy is just awful this year).
insert facepalm

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12-07-2011, 01:01 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Call it what you like; games like the last game in Boston where the Habs thoroughly dominated end-to-end yet lost by a goal have been entirely too common.

A taste of their own medicine, I suppose; back in 2009-2010 they seldom won much any other way, especially in the playoffs.
And that's where talent becomes the difference maker. If you have a 100 point player in your lineup, you might actually win some of the close games. We don't have those kinds of players and there's nobody we can really count on when we really need a goal in a clutch situation. Our best guy is Cammy and he's having a rough year. It's not surprising in the least that we are (once again) bottom third in offense and struggling to find the net.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Life does not work this way. And to quote Gainey, "there are excuses, and there are explanations". Injuries are an explanation. But the media has hammered so much that "injuries should not be an excuse" that it ends up being ignored. But they only repeat the player perspective, and what makes sense from a player perspective can make for terrible outside analysis.

The notion that a team icing a 40 million lineup can be expected to perform at the same level as a team icing a 60 million lineup on a regular basis is silly on the face of it. Again, this should really be obvious. If it were consistently true, a GM would be well-advised to simply not spend that extra 20 million, and replace all their stars with replacement players -- the expected performance would be the same, but they'd save a mint. And if the Habs had started the season as a salary floor team on a constrained budget, no one would be surprised to see them at .500, surely?

So, of course the Habs injuries have been a big factor. With the amount they've had, particularly on the blueline, it'd be silly not to. We hear "every team has injuries so it's not an excuse" a lot, to which the response should be: "not like this".

The Habs have had to go down to the #11 guy on the defenseman depth chart. Let me reiterate that: for several games, the Habs have been forced to ice Hamilton's #4 defenseman. How can that not matter? How many teams have the depth to do that and remain competitive? And yet somehow the Habs managed to paste two clubs 4-0 while this was happening.

Of course, this implies that players such as Gomez and Markov provide significant to the Habs when they are in the lineup. While that should normally be obvious, a fairly large segment of the fans seems to be fanatically opposed to the idea. If you think that the players that the Habs have on the injured reserve are replacement-level, of course you'll think that the team should perform as well using Weber instead of Markov or Darche instead of Gomez.
You're oversimplifying things to suit your argument.

The majority of the cash per mangames lost is tied up between a player who hasn't been producing anyway (and who we seem to be doing better without) and another player who we knew full well to be a huge injury risk and has played something like 60 out of the last three or four seasons. It's not surprising AT ALL that Markov hasn't played this season, he has become the rubber crutch that we lean on when we need to find excuses for losing. And if anything, Gomez's absence has actually improved our fortunes as the more icetime he gets, the worse our record becomes.

Other teams have had better players hurt and they've fared better than we have. Yes, at this point injuries are an excuse.

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12-07-2011, 01:04 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Call it what you like; games like the last game in Boston where the Habs thoroughly dominated end-to-end yet lost by a goal have been entirely too common.

A taste of their own medicine, I suppose; back in 2009-2010 they seldom won much any other way, especially in the playoffs.



Life does not work this way. And to quote Gainey, "there are excuses, and there are explanations". Injuries are an explanation. But the media has hammered so much that "injuries should not be an excuse" that it ends up being ignored. But they only repeat the player perspective, and what makes sense from a player perspective can make for terrible outside analysis.

The notion that a team icing a 40 million lineup can be expected to perform at the same level as a team icing a 60 million lineup on a regular basis is silly on the face of it. Again, this should really be obvious. If it were consistently true, a GM would be well-advised to simply not spend that extra 20 million, and replace all their stars with replacement players -- the expected performance would be the same, but they'd save a mint. And if the Habs had started the season as a salary floor team on a constrained budget, no one would be surprised to see them at .500, surely?

So, of course the Habs injuries have been a big factor. With the amount they've had, particularly on the blueline, it'd be silly not to. We hear "every team has injuries so it's not an excuse" a lot, to which the response should be: "not like this".

The Habs have had to go down to the #11 guy on the defenseman depth chart. Let me reiterate that: for several games, the Habs have been forced to ice Hamilton's #4 defenseman. How can that not matter? How many teams have the depth to do that and remain competitive? And yet somehow the Habs managed to paste two clubs 4-0 while this was happening.

Of course, this implies that players such as Gomez and Markov provide significant to the Habs when they are in the lineup. While that should normally be obvious, a fairly large segment of the fans seems to be fanatically opposed to the idea. If you think that the players that the Habs have on the injured reserve are replacement-level, of course you'll think that the team should perform as well using Weber instead of Markov or Darche instead of Gomez.
there are excuses, and there are explanations... absolutely.

for example, the gomez trade, which brought a declining player to the team at the cost of a top-level prospect while locking up 7.4M$ (1/8th of the teams cap for spending on players), provides a perfect explanation for why the team is poorly equipped to deal with injuries.

Remove Gomez from the lineup, as we've seen, and the team's performance level is at worst the same, and quite arguably better.

now, remove Gomez and add Ryan Mcdo playing 25min/game while putting up .54ppg (amazingly, almost DOUBLE Gomez's ppg) & a healthy +11, and all of a sudden, the injury explanation isn't as needed...

now, take the 7.4M$ spent on Gomez, and add the following 2011 UFA's to the roster:

Jaromir Jagr- 3.3M$
Chris Higgins- 1.9M$ (couldn't resist )
Sheldon Souray- 1.65M$
Kent Huskins- 1M$

total = 7.85M$ (close enough)

and all of a sudden, the team doesn't have to dig down to players like Blunden, Palushaj, St-Denis to fill it's injury problems, or promote Darche to the top-9 any time a solid fwd goes down.

Cammalleri- Pleks- Jagr
MaxPac- DD- Cole
Kost- Eller- Gionta
Moen- Noke- Higgins

darche, white, palushaj, engqvist


Markov- McDo
Gorges- Subban
Huskins- Souray
Gill

Campoli, Weber, Emelin, Diaz, Spacek, St-Denis

I mean look at that... both a much better roster, AND a roster much better equipped to deal with injuries anywhere in the lineup... and that's simply by removing one god-awful management decision. (of course, had we not gotten hosed in the Gomez deal, everything changes, and the roster today would look much different... point remains the same that the explanation for why our roster is both ill-equipped to handle injuries AND top-heavy with underperforming highly paid players can be traced directly back to management).

So yes, there are excuses, and there are explanations.

THe explanation to why the habs are the medicore (and perhaps even down right bad) team that they are, is not injuries, but poor management decisions that handcuffed the team.

A better run organization has more quality depth and can better manage injuries, which are a factor that all teams eventually have to deal with.

Some years more than others, and that's part of why no team/management group will ALWAYS come out on top...

but to blame our sub-.500 team on injuries is to make excuses precisely because it ignores the far more accurate and direct causes of both the lack of depth and low performance level of the roster we currently have.


you could do the same thing in looking at several UFA signings (Cammalleri, Spacek, Gionta), looking at various trades that, while not as disastrous as the Gomez trade, certainly helped to whittle away our roster depth without returning any reasonable value (Latendresse, Lapierre, S.Kost... I'll leave out D'ago & O'Byrne since at least we do still have assets that MAY provide something for us down the road).

and if you venture further into the Gainey tenure, all you find is more and more of these terrible asset management decisions, which have conspired to ensure a thin and overly priced roster, far too vulnerable to the injury issues that all teams must consider in assembling their roster.


blaming injuries, at this point, IS an excuse.
blaming poor management practices, IS an explanation.


Last edited by Miller Time: 12-07-2011 at 01:14 PM.
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12-07-2011, 01:13 PM
  #191
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This injury argument does not wash. Look at Pittsburgh last season. Great teams make up for their injuries and GREAT coaches don't use them as an excuse.

This team is middle of the road at best and with a good part of their veterans either hurt or playing like they are hurt they won't go far. IMO the problem is the play of Cammaleri and Gionta for starters along with the growing pains of Weber and Subban.I think the latter is trying to do too much.

Finally there is no such thing as luck. Every team gets bounces , bad calls. We do not get more than any other team.

I have always thought the chemistry on this team was very good but I think they are
starting to get frustrated with the line changes , misuse of assets and the complacency of the un-emotional Sudoku playing statue of a coach. I have never seen once get upset at a call or non-call. He just stands there with a stunned look on his face.

I really think him and PG need to go.

I was hoping when I came back from lunch that I would open the site and see that it had happened.There's always 4 pm.
Pittsburgh hung on for awhile after they lost their two stars but they dropped in the standings and lost to a team they should have beat in Round 1 of the playoffs Tampa Bay.

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12-07-2011, 01:13 PM
  #192
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by changing management, everything will go right and win the cup?
Everything is alright because the habs managed to sell all 21273 tickets.

If you are unhappy with a product/service, you can complain... If they dont solve your problem, you can complain or stop consuming the product

Beer price is too high!... well stop consuming beer in place, problem solved.
ticket price is too high... well stop buying tickets
habs are boring to watch... remove RDS from your programmation.
Mr. Gauthier, is that you? Telling us to continue to eat the **** sandwich and love it?

No thanks. I will continue to be a Habs fan whether you dont like our desire for a better team or not. Management fanboys (check mirror) seem to be the ones losing interest in this team, not the people who take pride in being a fan of the Canadiens.

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12-07-2011, 01:16 PM
  #193
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there are excuses, and there are explanations... absolutely.

for example, the gomez trade, which brought a declining player to the team at the cost of a top-level prospect while locking up 7.4M$ (1/8th of the teams cap for spending on players), provides a perfect explanation for why the team is poorly equipped to deal with injuries.

Remove Gomez from the lineup, as we've seen, and the team's performance level is at worst the same, and quite arguably better.

now, remove Gomez and add Ryan Mcdo playing 25min/game while putting up .54ppg (amazingly, almost DOUBLE Gomez's ppg) & a healthy +11, and all of a sudden, the injury explanation isn't as needed...

now, take the 7.4M$ spent on Gomez, and add the following 2011 UFA's to the roster:

Jaromir Jagr- 3.3M$
Chris Higgins- 1.9M$ (couldn't resist )
Sheldon Souray- 1.65M$
Kent Huskins- 1M$

total = 7.85M$ (close enough)

and all of a sudden, the team doesn't have to dig down to players like Blunden, Palushaj, St-Denis to fill it's injury problems, or promote Darche to the top-9 any time a solid fwd goes down.

Cammalleri- Pleks- Jagr
MaxPac- DD- Cole
Kost- Eller- Gionta
Moen- Noke- Higgins

darche, white, palushaj, engqvist


Markov- McDo
Gorges- Subban
Huskins- Souray
Gill

Campoli, Weber, Emelin, Diaz, Spacek, St-Denis

I mean look at that... both a much better roster, AND a roster much better equipped to deal with injuries anywhere in the lineup... and that's simply by removing one god-awful management decision. (of course, had we not gotten hosed in the Gomez deal, everything changes, and the roster today would look much different... point remains the same that the explanation for why our roster is both ill-equipped to handle injuries AND top-heavy with underperforming highly paid players can be traced directly back to management).

So yes, there are excuses, and there are explanations.

THe explanation to why the habs are the medicore (and perhaps even down right bad) team that they are, is not injuries, but poor management decisions that handcuffed the team.

A better run organization has more quality depth and can better manage injuries, which are a factor that all teams eventually have to deal with.

Some years more than others, and that's part of why no team/management group will ALWAYS come out on top...

but to blame our sub-.500 team on injuries is to make excuses precisely because it ignores the far more accurate and direct causes of both the lack of depth and low performance level of the roster we currently have.


you could do the same thing in looking at several UFA signings (Cammalleri, Spacek, Gionta), looking at various trades that, while not as disastrous as the Gomez trade, certainly helped to whittle away our roster depth without returning any reasonable value (Latendresse, Lapierre, S.Kost... I'll leave out D'ago & O'Byrne since at least we do still have assets that MAY provide something for us down the road).

and if you venture further into the Gainey tenure, all you find is more and more of these terrible asset management decisions, which have conspired to ensure a thin and overly priced roster, far too vulnerable to the injury issues that all teams must consider in assembling their roster.


blaming injuries, at this point, IS an excuse.
blaming poor management practices, IS an explanation.
First of all, I doubt guys like Souray and Huskins would sign here to be #7-8 or #8-9 d-men, plus if you fill your roster like that you'll never develop young players.

As much as it sucks being without 3 d-men at least it helped Weber, Diaz, Emelin and St Denis get experience and development.

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12-07-2011, 01:19 PM
  #194
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Mr. Gauthier, is that you? Telling us to continue to eat the **** sandwich and love it?

No thanks. I will continue to be a Habs fan whether you dont like our desire for a better team or not. Management fanboys (check mirror) seem to be the ones losing interest in this team, not the people who take pride in being a fan of the Canadiens.
What is this? Being a fan of the Habs is manifested solely by purchasing their garbage products? Are you for serious?

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12-07-2011, 01:19 PM
  #195
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Injuries cannot be the excuse for everything. Management had the ability to make other moves if they so chose during the offseason.

Take Markov, it was known that he was injured. I wouldn't criticize re-signing him, but you could argue that instead of spending 2.1M on Chris Campoli and 2.75M on Hal Gill, perhaps the club should have waived/buried Scott Gomez and re-signed James Wisniewski. Heck, maybe the club should have waived Jaroslav Spacek and traded for another defenceman. There's a million variables to play with.

But the team's biggest problem so far is not their defence anyway, it's the offence and the powerplay. Is that Martin's fault? Yes and no. Cammalleri's been horrible. Yes Cammalleri's shooting percentage is abnormally low at 8.7 compared to career avg 11.8, but last year too his shooting percentage was only 9.8. So what does this probably mean? He might be taking more low-percentage shots. Not good. Martin's fault? I'd say no, Cammalleri needs to pull himself out of it.
Gionta for playing 20 minutes a night has weak production. Headed for a 20 goal 20 assist season. Which is not bad for a second liner, but not a first liner, and perhaps Martin should be playing a more productive player like Andrei Kostitsyn more instead.

Now will the return of Markov save the powerplay? Let's hope so. But maybe Weber or Subban (certainly Markov is not) are not the kind of big point shots that Wisniewski, MAB, Schneider, Streit and Souray were which enabled the team's historical success at the PP.

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12-07-2011, 01:19 PM
  #196
DougHarvey
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You are forgetting that Pittsburgh's 3rd centre is better than ANY centre that Habs have dressed in the last 15 years and that their defense is easily top 3. That has a lot to do with their coach receiving the necessary tools to build a solid team. Jacques Martin's best defenseman is Gorges ... (no, it isn't Subban. The guy is just awful this year).
I used Pittsburgh as an example. Even Staal was out for a considerable amount last year. Forget the talent they have , they are puck-hungry and are always on it. The last time Cammy (fitting name) went into a corner was for misbehaving in the 2nd grade. I don't if he is hurt or afraid to get hurt, but I have never seen such a chicken of a player. Its embarrassing to the CH. I am sure all the ex-Habs are either turing in their graves or getting sick over this spectacle.

Having injuries is no excuse for the crap product on the ice. This is worse than
watcing golf/darts. Other than Emelin, our highlights are few and far between. He is about. Of course he will be benched when one of the others comes back. He does not play our brand or is that bland type of hockey.

They look disinterested on the ice.
the only player who is pulling fans out of their seats.

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12-07-2011, 01:22 PM
  #197
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nm..


Last edited by uiCk: 12-07-2011 at 01:49 PM.
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12-07-2011, 01:22 PM
  #198
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First of all, I doubt guys like Souray and Huskins would sign here to be #7-8 or #8-9 d-men, plus if you fill your roster like that you'll never develop young players.

As much as it sucks being without 3 d-men at least it helped Weber, Diaz, Emelin and St Denis get experience and development.
And, on cue, the required apology for management appears.

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12-07-2011, 01:26 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
Injuries cannot be the excuse for everything. Management had the ability to make other moves if they so chose during the offseason.

Take Markov, it was known that he was injured. I wouldn't criticize re-signing him, but you could argue that instead of spending 2.1M on Chris Campoli and 2.75M on Hal Gill, perhaps the club should have waived/buried Scott Gomez and re-signed James Wisniewski. Heck, maybe the club should have waived Jaroslav Spacek and traded for another defenceman. There's a million variables to play with.

But the team's biggest problem so far is not their defence anyway, it's the offence and the powerplay. Is that Martin's fault? Yes and no. Cammalleri's been horrible. Yes Cammalleri's shooting percentage is abnormally low at 8.7 compared to career avg 11.8, but last year too his shooting percentage was only 9.8. So what does this probably mean? He might be taking more low-percentage shots. Not good. Martin's fault? I'd say no, Cammalleri needs to pull himself out of it.
Gionta for playing 20 minutes a night has weak production. Headed for a 20 goal 20 assist season. Which is not bad for a second liner, but not a first liner, and perhaps Martin should be playing a more productive player like Andrei Kostitsyn more instead.

Now will the return of Markov save the powerplay? Let's hope so. But maybe Weber or Subban (certainly Markov is not) are not the kind of big point shots that Wisniewski, MAB, Schneider, Streit and Souray were which enabled the team's historical success at the PP.
That's just it though. A better defense means more offense. Not only does your PP improve but your transition game improves and you have better breakouts and a more decisive presence in the offensive zone.

Last year Habs D combined for 190 points. Right now the D is on pace for about 120 points.

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12-07-2011, 01:29 PM
  #200
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And that's where talent becomes the difference maker. If you have a 100 point player in your lineup, you might actually win some of the close games.
In the long-running "skewed views" series: I don't think you quite realize exactly how rare 100-point seasons are, let alone players who can do this consistently. Suffice to say that the teams that have such players can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and you'd have fingers leftover.

You might want to lower your threshold a bit to grab double digit players, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You're oversimplifying things to suit your argument.
The oversimplification is saying that injuries don't matter. They do.

The fact of the matter is that people are expecting a team icing a floor team to perform like a cap team. That's a ridiculous expectation. And the problem is not missing Markov, it's missing Markov PLUS Campoli PLUS Spacek PLUS for a while, Gill. The Habs have been icing two rookies and two sophomores as part of their top-6 for most games and that is not something that's tenable.

As for Gomez, I think it's clear that we do not have the same evaluation of the player. Suffice to say that I believe him to be an important piece of the Habs' 5-on-5 game, and frankly, the notion that the Habs do better without him is a weird form of wishful thinking. The Habs' recent 5-on-5 swoon coinciding with his absence isn't exactly causing me to review my assessment.

Basically, the argument that the Habs shouldn't be suffering from injuries because the players they have out of the lineup don't really matter... the most charitably I can qualify this is "misguided".

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