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Old
12-06-2011, 07:51 AM
  #1
MrMcGz
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Where do we go from here?

While this season is far from over, I think we are all in general agreement that the current make-up of our team is not getting us far this year. So I ask, what do we do this year to set us up for success in the next few years, by building depth but remain as completive as possible?

Personally I'd like to see us try to trade for another 2nd pairing Dman this year, someone like Zanon or Schultz who is familiar with this defensive style. Then go after Suter or Weber to pair with Hedman for years to come.

Try to package a deal for Halak maybe...

I'd be willing to part with Purcell, Downie or Malone for defense/goaltending.

What do you guys think?

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12-06-2011, 07:59 AM
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At this rate, we will not even be in the playoff hunt.

Goaltender? Defenseman? Both?

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12-06-2011, 08:09 AM
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Everybody, myself included has been looking at shoring up the defense but Chief pointed out on the broadcast last night that they're not scoring many goals, especially on the road...................

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12-06-2011, 08:23 AM
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MY XMAS wish list
  • Ohlund retire
  • Kubina retire
  • Roloson retire
  • Tic up as backup
  • Weber/Sutter
  • MAB not seeing any 5 on 5
  • Shannnon traded for Lundin
  • Ashton up
  • Barberio or Gudas up

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Old
12-06-2011, 08:56 AM
  #5
Benders Lindyhop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoltSTH View Post
MY XMAS wish list
  • Ohlund retire
  • Kubina retire
  • Roloson retire
  • Tic up as backup
  • Weber/Sutter
  • MAB not seeing any 5 on 5
  • Shannnon traded for Lundin
  • Ashton up
  • Barberio or Gudas up
I don't think even Santa Vinik could fill that list.

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Old
12-06-2011, 10:04 AM
  #6
LightningStrikes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcGz View Post
While this season is far from over, I think we are all in general agreement that the current make-up of our team is not getting us far this year. So I ask, what do we do this year to set us up for success in the next few years, by building depth but remain as completive as possible?

Personally I'd like to see us try to trade for another 2nd pairing Dman this year, someone like Zanon or Schultz who is familiar with this defensive style. Then go after Suter or Weber to pair with Hedman for years to come.

Try to package a deal for Halak maybe...

I'd be willing to part with Purcell, Downie or Malone for defense/goaltending.

What do you guys think?
I've said it before and I say it again: I would love this!

But what do we do about our defense? Even a healthy Ohlund was still a questionmark before the season. He was slow, streaky and mediocre at best during the regular season but he was great in the playoffs. Now after a surgery on both knees and going from skating with the team and "return in 1-2 weeks" to not skating and "no timeline" in just a little over a week - not a lot to be optimistic about.

Kubina isn't helping the team but how do we get rid of him? Who would take on that $3.85 million contract for the rest of the year? And what would we get out of such a trade? Certainly not a lot.

With MAB, Kubina and Gervais we have at least three guys on the roster that shouldn't get more than 3rd pairing minutes - and wouldn't get more on any other team. You could even argue Clark and Gilroy belong in that group. And yet at least three of them are in the lineup every night playing close or over 20 minutes.

Gilroy's last four games: 19:00, 18:37, 21:40, 23:32
MAB's last four games: 21:01, 18:11, 19:51, 17:03
Clark's last four games: 16:48, 18:10, 15:59, 19:46
We all know our record over those four games.

Kubina's ice time was already cut down to around 14-15 minutes per game in November (he was close to 20 minutes in October). The problem is you either let those guys mentioned above play more minutes although they aren't used to or even built for it or you wear out your few solid defensemen which leads to them playing worse too. In order to break the cycle we need support for Brewer and Hedman. We're also in need of relief for Gilroy and MAB.

It won't happen from inside the organization. MAB and Gilroy raised up the ante when they had to but they've obviously reached their limits. And I really don't think any of our prospects could help us short-term. We need another Brewer-esque power injection like last season. Or two.

TL;DR: Same story as last season: Please trade for a D or two, SFY!

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Old
12-06-2011, 10:21 AM
  #7
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Defense first, goaltending will come back with it.

So much regression on the blueline is killing us getting zone time which is also killing secondary scoring.

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12-06-2011, 10:54 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
Defense first, goaltending will come back with it.

So much regression on the blueline is killing us getting zone time which is also killing secondary scoring.
What's up with you and goalies? Are/were you a goalie and therefore cannot see fault with them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by albatross View Post
I don't think even Santa Vinik could fill that list.
Vinik Claus I believe is the proper term.

What we need is a goalie. You see it with Columbus, when a team doesn't have a goalie, they don't win. Once you're winning, Shannon, penalties, Kubina, etc. don't seem as bad. Because they're not, as every problem we have, is a problem only because it finds it's way to the back of our net.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-06-2011 at 11:04 AM.
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Old
12-06-2011, 11:04 AM
  #9
IdealisticSniper
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I think something will be done defense wise this season. But unless a crazy offer that we cant turn down comes our way for a goaltender I think we ride with what we have.

Now ultimately I think this offseason is huge for SFY. He has a ton of contracts coming off the books including half of the D-core. There "should" be a few very good options available via UFA as well as some guys who you could pick up in a trade as well. Also there will be at least 3 or 4 good potential number 1 goalies available in the offseason as well in which I think he will then look to pick one of them up.

I also think, especially if he keeps having setbacks, that Ohlund might retire after this year, enticed by maybe a small coaching job by the Lightning to do so. Which will remove the contract and free up more room to totally revamp the defense.

Basically we can all hope for a bandaid that will allow us to make the playoffs and honestly once we get there you never know what can happen. And then this upcoming offseason we will see some good player movement incoming and outgoing that will make us much better overall.

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12-06-2011, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
I think something will be done defense wise this season. But unless a crazy offer that we cant turn down comes our way for a goaltender I think we ride with what we have.
I wouldn't ride the goalies we have because I want the cup. Garon is good, but inconsistent, and Roloson can't play 60 minutes. Neither of them are the guy.

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12-06-2011, 11:07 AM
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TheDaysOf 04
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Everybody needs to step the **** up. Every single person in that locker room. In all complete seriousness, we need to be ALL IN again.

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12-06-2011, 11:10 AM
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Felonious Python
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Everybody needs to step the **** up. Every single person in that locker room. In all complete seriousness, we need to be ALL IN again.
Goalie.

Also,

seems relevant.

We probably have the speed, the toughness, but probably not the special teams. We also need a guy who specializes in stopping the puck.

I think there was a shift of philosophy, at least with Boucher in camp, about having the 'best' guys, over the 'right' guys. He said in his first year, he was struggling to find an NHL roster in camp. That's how we ended up with Dana Tyrell initally. It was because he clicked so well with Thompson and Hall, that he even got his shot.

Fastforward to the beginning of this season, and we've got Ritola and Jones farting around because they were better than Dana Tyrell, which as of the playoffs, Jones was. I don't fault the management for choosing him, but they had to have some sort of place for Ritola, which I don't think they had.

Once Tyrell got called up, and Jones demoted, the team played great. That's sort of why they still need to stop ************ with who gets scratched. If Shannon sucks (at what he's supposed to be doing), sit him. If Tyrell sucks, sit him or send him down. Kubina sucks, keep sitting him.

Hall meanwhile hasn't sucked, and helps get Tyrell going, but he gets sat so the forwards can be 'equal', for what I can only presume. Meanwhile, Gervais gets scratched for 19 games because Ohlund's injured. That doesn't even make sense. Somehow, he's supposed to play *more* when Ohlund returns? Or sent to Norfolk or something?

Good thing Ohlund is injured forever so those type of objective evaluations can't possibly be made.

wins > feelings


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-06-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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Old
12-06-2011, 11:19 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
Defense first, goaltending will come back with it.

So much regression on the blueline is killing us getting zone time which is also killing secondary scoring.
This, we need someone good in our defense, lets take a look please

Hedman-Brewer
Ohlund-Kubina
Clark-Gilroy
MAB
Gervais

If healthy

Brewer is not a top-2 d-man, although he can handle it fine.
I'm good with him as a top-4 d-man.

Kubina is worthless. Ohlund should not see more than 3rd pair minutes. I like Gilroy in the 3rd pairing.

MAB should be 7th D.
Hedman can play 1st or 2nd pairing minutes so I'm fine with that.

What I would like to see

Suter-Hedman
Brewer-XXX
Ohlund-Gilroy
MAB

OUT:
Kubina
Clark
Gervais

IN:
Suter
XXX

XXX being someone like Gleason, Mitchell, Beauchemin, Jackman...

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Old
12-06-2011, 12:13 PM
  #14
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I can't understand why anyone wouldn't blame the goaltending along with the defense. Roloson has been part of the problem and not a guy who's just being effected negatively by the situation. His terrible softies (Alfredsson goal last night anyone?) and puck playing mistakes are killing us even more. A goalie is needed, and preferably a long term solution. Garon has been solid, but he's a backup and ideally wouldn't be playing as much as he is now if the situation was better.

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Old
12-06-2011, 12:29 PM
  #15
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First off, there is almost no chance St.Louis trades Halak. He has been playing well of late and is signed beyond this year, while Elliott is a UFA at season's end.

Second, I would love to acquire Suter in any way possible (Connolly, Clark and a conditional 1st would most likely be the asking price). He would do wonders for our blue line and provide that mobility, offence, defence and grittiness that we are currently lacking from our back end. Of course, this deal would only make sense if Suter were to re-sign long-term; we cannot be giving up such significant assets for a rental player.

IMO we'd be fine with a defence like this:

Hedman-Suter
Brewer-Gilroy
Ohlund-Bergeron

Third, in terms of goaltending, it's painfully clear we need an upgrade. I know some of you are advocates of giving Roloson more time, but time's running out and he isn't a young tender who needs more maturing. Acquiring a defenseman like Suter won't help solve our goaltending issues; he'll make a noticeable difference but Roloson still can't stop a beach ball at times. If Luongo can continue to play well, it would most likely make Schneider expendable at some point, and I truly think he is the real deal. The issue is we don't have the resources to trade for a goalie of his caliber at this point. The only package that comes to mind involves Downie, Roloson and Tokarski/2012 2nd round pick (clearly other teams could offer more).

Projected line-up:

Malone-Lecavalier-St.Louis
Purcell-Stamkos-Ashton
Pyatt-Moore-Shannon
Tyrell-Thompson-Hall

Hedman-Suter
Brewer-Gilroy
Ohlund-Bergeron

Schneider
Garon

Then sign a third line guy who can provide size, grit and secondary scoring like David Moss in the off-season.

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Old
12-06-2011, 01:12 PM
  #16
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Not to say that goaltending isn't a problem, but puck possession is our biggest issue. Along with taking unnecessary risks with the puck on our side of the blue line. What happened to our swarming defense? We use to be much more aggressive inside of our blue line.

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Old
12-06-2011, 01:48 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
What's up with you and goalies? Are/were you a goalie and therefore cannot see fault with them?



Vinik Claus I believe is the proper term.

What we need is a goalie. You see it with Columbus, when a team doesn't have a goalie, they don't win. Once you're winning, Shannon, penalties, Kubina, etc. don't seem as bad. Because they're not, as every problem we have, is a problem only because it finds it's way to the back of our net.
What is it with you and defenses? Can you not see we have a complete inability to control play in our zone like we did during the playoffs?

Hell, we have a lot of issues and some are simple, some are not, take this for example:

At the moment, the combo of 91/4/26/47 have combined for 288 shots, these are the top four shot takers on this team. 288 shots.

The rest of the team combined has managed only 308 shots. Pyatt, Hall, Moore, Downs, Purcell, Hedman, Thompson, Connolly, Malone, and MAB are all in the bottom half of the league in shots.

Our defense - our defense has allowed 30.6 shots per game and I can't find range stats but i'd hazard a guess to say 50-55% are within 8 feet of the crease.

We only average 29 shots per game. We're heavily penalized, roughly in the top 25% of teams penalized with 106 times shorthanded. PK is our only real saving grace at the moment.

Road powerplay is awful at 11.5%. Home has us at 20%.

We're 25th in faceoff percentage which sucks at about 48%.

We have 261 giveaways on the year with 165 of those coming on the road. We're in the bottom half of the league in giveaways and takeaways.

Roli has seen 118 minutes more play than Garon and in those roughly two games worth of minutes 84 more shots than him. Rolo is seeing a goal get by every 9.3 shots which is historically low for him, Garon is at around 11 and change. 23 SPG for Garon, 27 for Rolo. Does goaltending need to improve? Absolutely.

Defensively we cannot get out of our zone, which means we cannot get offensive zone time, which is driving down our shot totals and total offensive body of work.

We need to correct a LOT OF **** RIGHT NOW, not just trade for a goaltender. Giveaway rates are climbing at numbers that aren't pretty for MAB, Gilroy, and Clark and of all of those, I was hoping Clark would be the most stable of the three.

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Old
12-06-2011, 03:19 PM
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It's not an Either/Or thing with the Defense and Goalies, both need to improve. But I also think if you upgrade one, it'd be like upgrading both. Maybe Oberg was all we needed and SFY is twirling his mustache right now.

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12-06-2011, 04:17 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
What is it with you and defenses? Can you not see we have a complete inability to control play in our zone like we did during the playoffs?

Hell, we have a lot of issues and some are simple, some are not, take this for example:

At the moment, the combo of 91/4/26/47 have combined for 288 shots, these are the top four shot takers on this team. 288 shots.

The rest of the team combined has managed only 308 shots. Pyatt, Hall, Moore, Downs, Purcell, Hedman, Thompson, Connolly, Malone, and MAB are all in the bottom half of the league in shots.

Our defense - our defense has allowed 30.6 shots per game and I can't find range stats but i'd hazard a guess to say 50-55% are within 8 feet of the crease.

We only average 29 shots per game. We're heavily penalized, roughly in the top 25% of teams penalized with 106 times shorthanded. PK is our only real saving grace at the moment.

Road powerplay is awful at 11.5%. Home has us at 20%.

We're 25th in faceoff percentage which sucks at about 48%.

We have 261 giveaways on the year with 165 of those coming on the road. We're in the bottom half of the league in giveaways and takeaways.

Roli has seen 118 minutes more play than Garon and in those roughly two games worth of minutes 84 more shots than him. Rolo is seeing a goal get by every 9.3 shots which is historically low for him, Garon is at around 11 and change. 23 SPG for Garon, 27 for Rolo. Does goaltending need to improve? Absolutely.

Defensively we cannot get out of our zone, which means we cannot get offensive zone time, which is driving down our shot totals and total offensive body of work.

We need to correct a LOT OF **** RIGHT NOW, not just trade for a goaltender. Giveaway rates are climbing at numbers that aren't pretty for MAB, Gilroy, and Clark and of all of those, I was hoping Clark would be the most stable of the three.
What these stats aren't showing is confidence. Like the confidence you have when you're playing in front of a goalie you know you can rely on.

Giveaways also are an iffy stat to me because if you're giving the puck away, you're probably trying to do something like passing it to a teammate and it gets intercepted. There are multiple ways to fix this, but outside of replacing the player, the coaching staff is involved, and that's where I think not having Wayne Fleming is hurting us.

I'm not suggesting SFY go Bobby Clarke on Fleming, but there has to be a evaluation made if a replacement asst. coach needs to be brought in. The first thing I'd do is ask Wayne himself who he'd recommend to fill in for him.

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Old
12-06-2011, 04:44 PM
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I don't mind keeping Clark, he does his job and is one of the best shotblockers in the league, heck our PP was great when he saw PP icetime last autumn.

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12-06-2011, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post

We probably have the speed, the toughness, but probably not the special teams. We also need a guy who specializes in stopping the puck.
Where? I think we're lacking big time in that department.

Anyways, I agree with GBL pretty much wholeheartedly.

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12-07-2011, 12:55 AM
  #22
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Where we go from now? I'm tired of seeing this team play like they don't give two *****. Lets see if they will care when we make call ups and allow the kids the chance to steal there jobs!

Call up time. Barberio, Gudas, Johnson, Ashton.....call em up, see what they can do. Worse case senario, we send them back down and scare the **** out of the passengers on this team.

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12-07-2011, 02:00 AM
  #23
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Where we go from now? I'm tired of seeing this team play like they don't give two *****. Lets see if they will care when we make call ups and allow the kids the chance to steal there jobs!

Call up time. Barberio, Gudas, Johnson, Ashton.....call em up, see what they can do. Worse case senario, we send them back down and scare the **** out of the passengers on this team.
Not a terrible idea. I missed the game tonight had to work late and I'm on West Coast time... But the highlights I saw kinda showed we were outskated in our zone.

I'd like to see Ashton be given a cup of coffee and put some pressure on the fringe guys to step it the **** up. I refuse to believe that Bergenheim not in the lineup changed this team from a top 4 to the basement.


But seriously, a decision needs to be made:A) either attempt to contend again this year, or B) sell at the deadline for some additional picks and build the organizations depth with this draft that is supposed to be deep. It's past the quarter way mark in the season now and if the current trend continues we're gonna be in the basement and miss the playoffs.

Personally I don't think that many pieces are missing, but boy do we need a goalie. Like badly. The Roloson deal last year was a solid move to get things fixed and shore up the Smellis debacle. But it always was a temporary measure. We know he will not be the goalie of the future based on his age.


They way I see it is if route A) is taken: SFY will be prepared to move Connolly and Ashton and/or picks. There are a number of teams who will decide to sell/be interested in those guys. If they can be used to score a prime up and coming goalie like Bernier/Schneider or even an established starter and things finally get stable in net things could turn around quick.

Another thought is that with the re-alignment, would a team like Carolina be willing to be trade partners now that we are no longer in the same conference? A solid guy like Bryan Allen who is on the last year of his deal before becoming a UFA could be picked up as a rental and would fit in the available cap space. Better yet, it could even be done on the cheap, perhaps only a second rounder and a so-so prospect? And even better, they have no incentive to trade him to their future "divisional" rivals should he choose to resign. He's not a show stopper, but he's better than Kubina right now.

If Route A) is taken it compromises the future a bit in the short run, however, if SFY can be successful in the FA market in the next 2 years it will give some time to acquire solid draft picks and college FAs. The problem is things need to get moving like right NOW so that we are in a position to buy late January/Early Feb.


If route B is taken I'm not saying clean house, but knock out some cobwebs. Try and move Ohlund to a contender. Every team wants a D man right now and veteran guy like Ohlund might fetch a second or third. The reason to move him is less to get a return, more to clear cap space for the summer. Consider moving Malone as well. I like Malone but that cap space is better spent this offseason. So stack up on picks, flesh out depth in the draft, and make a few trades if it is opportune, but keep Vinny, MSTL, Stammer, Connolly, and Hedmen.

Use the space of Kubina/Ohlund/Malone off the books and take a run at Suter/Parise or another fresh UFA; but overall: get YOUNG and take a shot next year. Tampa shouldnt be that hard of a sell anymore. Vinik is doing great things with the organization, SFY has more respect from players/the hockey world than almost any GM out there; the weather is 10000X better than Edmonton, Toronto or Montreal; there isn't insane media pressure like some of the big markets, and there are even favourable tax laws in Florida. Landing a guy like Suter, especially since he is American and doesn't have heart strings to a Canadian/North east city, is perfectly feasible.

Option B) still means trading for a goalie tho. FA market is thin.


There is of course Option C which is blow up the team but I think that would be retarded personally...


Thoughts?

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Old
12-07-2011, 09:21 AM
  #24
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As much as I like crying wolf or shouting fire, those two options aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It is possible we could go for route A around now, trade for a good roster player to see if that helps and/or a goalie, and if we're still in the basement at the deadline, move out some dead wood. Never give up on a season this early in.

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12-07-2011, 09:28 AM
  #25
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I don't mind keeping Clark, he does his job and is one of the best shotblockers in the league, heck our PP was great when he saw PP icetime last autumn.
I agree. Clark does a great job when he's allowed to stay within his limits.

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