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Are the Rangers tough enough?

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Old
12-07-2011, 10:54 AM
  #101
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I know i'll be in the Minority, but here goes: IMO the Ranger's are as soft as any team in the League.. Especially on D.. As much as i like McD and the job he's done he's not a rookie anymore, he needs to start getting more involved whenever there is a skirmish in front of the net, he's nowhere to be found. Sauer IMO hasn't been nearly as physical as he was last year. Woywitka just doesn't want to make any mistakes, and he plays like it. MDZ will never be a physical presense.
The winning streaks have been nice don't get me wrong, but wait till Pttsburg-Philly-Washington etc. start getting it cranked up. Even when Stahl comes back i just don't see this group playing with the Grit/Intensity it takes to win a playoff series and go deep into the playoffs..

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12-07-2011, 11:38 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
I know i'll be in the Minority, but here goes: IMO the Ranger's are as soft as any team in the League.. Especially on D.. As much as i like McD and the job he's done he's not a rookie anymore, he needs to start getting more involved whenever there is a skirmish in front of the net, he's nowhere to be found. Sauer IMO hasn't been nearly as physical as he was last year. Woywitka just doesn't want to make any mistakes, and he plays like it. MDZ will never be a physical presense.
The winning streaks have been nice don't get me wrong, but wait till Pttsburg-Philly-Washington etc. start getting it cranked up. Even when Stahl comes back i just don't see this group playing with the Grit/Intensity it takes to win a playoff series and go deep into the playoffs..
wait for it because it is about to come....you will be crucified for what you just wrote.

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12-07-2011, 11:54 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
I know i'll be in the Minority, but here goes: IMO the Ranger's are as soft as any team in the League.. Especially on D.. As much as i like McD and the job he's done he's not a rookie anymore, he needs to start getting more involved whenever there is a skirmish in front of the net, he's nowhere to be found. Sauer IMO hasn't been nearly as physical as he was last year. Woywitka just doesn't want to make any mistakes, and he plays like it. MDZ will never be a physical presense.
The winning streaks have been nice don't get me wrong, but wait till Pttsburg-Philly-Washington etc. start getting it cranked up. Even when Stahl comes back i just don't see this group playing with the Grit/Intensity it takes to win a playoff series and go deep into the playoffs..
I see your point and I'm inclined to agree. A lot of the better teams have a few monsters on the backline and while our defense is solid, we are a little short in the physical sense when compared to teams like the Bruins, Flyers, Sharks and Pens. Even the Leafs have more physical presence on their blueline than we do as witnessed monday nite. I hope Mcilrath develops into the real thing; would solve a lot of these issues.

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12-07-2011, 12:06 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Who's talking about getting a 4th line goon? We need toughness on the backend..Winning 12 of 14 is sweet but it doesn't cover all the warts..We need a thumper on D so people have something to think about..We have no crushers back there..Sauer is nice but not an intimidating prescence..When Rupp comes back im fine with the top 12..What we need is someone who plays in a bad mood every night and stands people up at the blue line..I would kill to get Erskine here..
Good post with very good points here. We are not physically big enough(not to mention not skilled or fast enough either) up front or on the backline to both match up and withstand the pounding we would absorb in a playoff series from much bigger, physical and more skilled teams like the Bruins, Flyers and Pens in the east(Caps?) and the Red Wings, Black Hawks, Canucks and Sharks in the west.

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12-07-2011, 12:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
What's the rush? It isn't logical to expect the Rangers to be a true contender this season. It almost never happens that quickly for teams. They always get dumped by a superior team in the playoffs first, and this team still has a few top pieces from within to add to the mix. Kreider doesn't have to be tough; his athleticism (hopefully) will simply be too much for most players to handle, at either end of the ice. Hopefully, McIlrath will be a monster.

This team will make an upgrade trade sooner than later. I think it will happen this season, and it will address toughness to some degree. Some kind of power forward, or big, strong goalscorer, with Dubinsky going the other way.



Sauer is one of the most consistent and efficient defenseman in the league. Positioning is first class, stickchecking is very good, he's big, he's strong, he wins a lot of battles along the boards. He's not fast enough to stop some of the top, top players in the league, but he's tough to beat for most forwards in the league. Relative to ice time, he makes successful breakout passes most often among the blueliners. Thumpers give up far more scoring chances than a player of Sauer's caliber.

Sauer is a much, much better player than Erskine. It's unfortunate that he has bad luck with injuries, but this team should really hope he is able to play at the same level for a while. He's a very smart player. Most underrated player on the team, IMO. Very reminiscent to the way the fanbase reacted to Callahan. It took far too long to acknowledge how phenomenal he is.
I couldn't agree more with you. I have always believed that positionally speaking, Sauer is our best defenseman and one of the best in the league for what he brings to the table. Very underrated player!

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12-07-2011, 12:16 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
What continues to concern me is that in a long playoff series the Rangers would be worn down by bigger teams. If your already banged up you may hesitate taking a hit to make a play. This is why teams that have an abundance of big, strong players tend to do well in the playoffs. A bigger team can physically intimidate a smaller team at a critical moment, cause that slight hesitation and swing a playoff series.

Teams may respect the Rangers, but no one will be intimidated by their size or by Marc Staal's bad side.

So, IMO toughness is not the issue. The Rangers are plenty tough. But they lack size, strength and a capacity for sheer physical intimidation.
You're right on the money with your post. Teams like the Bruins, Sharks, Flyers and even the Pens are not only very skilled but also have very big, physical players throughout their lineups. Very difficult to deal with this in a best of seven playoff format.

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12-07-2011, 03:28 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
You're right on the money with your post. Teams like the Bruins, Sharks, Flyers and even the Pens are not only very skilled but also have very big, physical players throughout their lineups. Very difficult to deal with this in a best of seven playoff format.
In light of the Sauer situation I'll paraphrase what I just posted in the other thread.

In just a few minutes we lost one key player and could easily have lost three. Hockey is a brutally physical game. The counter balance to tough, gritty, heart and soul players like Stepan, Richards, Callahan and Gabby is a Phaneuf, Lucic, Simmonds, Chara, Hartnell, etc.

The thing those opposing players bring in addition to heart, grit and toughness is the ability to physically impose their will and take you out. Off the ice. Out of the line up. Out of a series. Period.

Happened to Boston in the Cup Final this past spring. They lost Horton, but they were able to respond. Having Chara, Lucic et. al. allows you to bring an element of menace to the ice when needed.

The Rangers do not have that.

You can crap on a MacIlrath all you want, and if all he is a two bit goon at the end of the day you'll be entitled. But at least he can respond. If the other night was game one of a playoff series with the Leafs, does anyone care to guess who has the edge??? GET IT YET?

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12-07-2011, 04:33 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
In light of the Sauer situation I'll paraphrase what I just posted in the other thread.

In just a few minutes we lost one key player and could easily have lost three. Hockey is a brutally physical game. The counter balance to tough, gritty, heart and soul players like Stepan, Richards, Callahan and Gabby is a Phaneuf, Lucic, Simmonds, Chara, Hartnell, etc.

The thing those opposing players bring in addition to heart, grit and toughness is the ability to physically impose their will and take you out. Off the ice. Out of the line up. Out of a series. Period.

Happened to Boston in the Cup Final this past spring. They lost Horton, but they were able to respond. Having Chara, Lucic et. al. allows you to bring an element of menace to the ice when needed.

The Rangers do not have that.

You can crap on a MacIlrath all you want, and if all he is a two bit goon at the end of the day you'll be entitled. But at least he can respond. If the other night was game one of a playoff series with the Leafs, does anyone care to guess who has the edge??? GET IT YET?
Rangers could have responded. Cally, Dubi, Prust, Boyle, Avery, all of em are as tough as anyone in the league. We're not the biggest team. But they ain't helpless.

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12-07-2011, 04:37 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Rangers could have responded. Cally, Dubi, Prust, Boyle, Avery, all of em are as tough as anyone in the league. We're not the biggest team. But they ain't helpless.
Avery is a pest he doesnt intimidate anyone. I agree on Prust and while Callahan and Dubinsky are hard nose players name one guy who is afraid of them. As far as Boyle being as tough as anyone in the league Guy does not play like a 6'7 player, if Callahan had his body fine that would be intimidating but he doesnt.

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12-07-2011, 04:47 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by HenrikO'doyle View Post
Avery is a pest he doesnt intimidate anyone. I agree on Prust and while Callahan and Dubinsky are hard nose players name one guy who is afraid of them. As far as Boyle being as tough as anyone in the league Guy does not play like a 6'7 player, if Callahan had his body fine that would be intimidating but he doesnt.
Boyle's huge. I just wish he knew how to stay on his skate.

I'm not talking about intimidating players. This is the NHL. Very, VERY few people are going to be intimidated. Even of guys like Boogaard. And Dion Phaneuf isn't going to lay off of a hit because we've got some goon in our line up.

The role of enforcer is all but gone.

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12-07-2011, 05:43 PM
  #111
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I mean, 2 of our players got absolutely flattened in 2 minutes, and there wasn't even a scrum in response. I think that's psychologically damaging for the team...the Sabres talked about a sense of shame after they didn't stand up for Miller, and I think that has to affect a hockey team. You just have to stand up for each other. I think that's one of the keys of the Bruins' success, and Vancouver's lack thereof in the finals.

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12-07-2011, 06:32 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Rangers could have responded. Cally, Dubi, Prust, Boyle, Avery, all of em are as tough as anyone in the league. We're not the biggest team. But they ain't helpless.
You're just kidding yourself if you think the five Rangers you mentioned are as tough as anyone in the league. They are gritty players with Prust being the only one who can really handle himself but that's not really what this is about. Teams like the Bruins, Flyers, Sharks, Pens have big, physically imposing players throughout their lineups that we cannot come close to matching up with in a best of seven playoff series. That's really what this is all about. When Rupp gets healthy, he has to play because he has some skill and his sheer size will help us to overcome this toughness issue.

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12-07-2011, 06:34 PM
  #113
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I think grit and strength, in the ability to hold of checks, throw hits, and perform at a high and intense level game in and game out (Prust always playing with injuries over a Wolski, who wont get out of the tub) has a lot of value.

I don't think there is a ton of value to a player guys are "Afraid of" unless it is a Pronger-like defenseman.

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12-07-2011, 06:56 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Rangers could have responded. Cally, Dubi, Prust, Boyle, Avery, all of em are as tough as anyone in the league. We're not the biggest team. But they ain't helpless.
Prust is already carrying the "Grand Piano" as our Russian friends would say.

Cally could/would go but I'd rather he not.

Dubi probably should have, though I think he might get embarrassed against Dion.

Same with Boyler....but (and I love the guy) I could probably beat the crap out of him...and I'm twice his age.

Avery....well, lets just say that Dion probably spends his dream time with Avery, a belt sander, and a blow torch.

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12-07-2011, 07:01 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
In light of the Sauer situation I'll paraphrase what I just posted in the other thread.

In just a few minutes we lost one key player and could easily have lost three. Hockey is a brutally physical game. The counter balance to tough, gritty, heart and soul players like Stepan, Richards, Callahan and Gabby is a Phaneuf, Lucic, Simmonds, Chara, Hartnell, etc.

The thing those opposing players bring in addition to heart, grit and toughness is the ability to physically impose their will and take you out. Off the ice. Out of the line up. Out of a series. Period.

Happened to Boston in the Cup Final this past spring. They lost Horton, but they were able to respond. Having Chara, Lucic et. al. allows you to bring an element of menace to the ice when needed.

The Rangers do not have that.

You can crap on a MacIlrath all you want, and if all he is a two bit goon at the end of the day you'll be entitled. But at least he can respond. If the other night was game one of a playoff series with the Leafs, does anyone care to guess who has the edge??? GET IT YET?
Agree. I have been preaching much the same thing forever. It seems that our Rangers have always struggled to match up physically with the bigger teams for years now.

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12-07-2011, 07:12 PM
  #116
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How tough are the pens? Honest question...

Or Tampa who went to the ECF last year? Or Vancouver, who came within 1 game of the cup.

I dont think any of those teams is physically imposing. Sure the Bruins won, but they are a rarity in this NHL.

I don't think the Rangers out tough anyone on a given night, but I also don't think there as soft as some are making them out to be.

When healthy, Staal, Sauer and Rupp will bring toughness over guys like Stralman, Woywitka and probably Avery.

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12-07-2011, 07:13 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Puckface NYR View Post
How tough are the pens? Honest question...

Or Tampa who went to the ECF last year? Or Vancouver, who came within 1 game of the cup.

I dont think any of those teams is physically imposing. Sure the Bruins won, but they are a rarity in this NHL.

I don't think the Rangers out tough anyone on a given night, but I also don't think there as soft as some are making them out to be.

When healthy, Staal, Sauer and Rupp will bring toughness over guys like Stralman, Woywitka and probably Avery.
Since I can't edit....this isn't the 70's anymore and the league really isn't built on toughness as much as skill.

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12-07-2011, 07:21 PM
  #118
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I think grit and strength, in the ability to hold of checks, throw hits, and perform at a high and intense level game in and game out (Prust always playing with injuries over a Wolski, who wont get out of the tub) has a lot of value.

I don't think there is a ton of value to a player guys are "Afraid of" unless it is a Pronger-like defenseman.
POTT

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12-07-2011, 07:23 PM
  #119
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This thread seems to become "Do the Rangers have enough size?"

Because that's the argument I'm seeing most of.

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12-07-2011, 07:27 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
You're just kidding yourself if you think the five Rangers you mentioned are as tough as anyone in the league. They are gritty players with Prust being the only one who can really handle himself but that's not really what this is about. Teams like the Bruins, Flyers, Sharks, Pens have big, physically imposing players throughout their lineups that we cannot come close to matching up with in a best of seven playoff series. That's really what this is all about. When Rupp gets healthy, he has to play because he has some skill and his sheer size will help us to overcome this toughness issue.
I don't see an issue with the hesitance to take an instigator penalty with less than 5 minutes remaining in a one goal game. Especially on the cleanest hit I've ever seen injure a player.

I don't like it, but that was a clean hit. I hate Phaneuf, but if you want someone to fight him, have them do it for a dirty play.

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12-07-2011, 07:29 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
I think grit and strength, in the ability to hold of checks, throw hits, and perform at a high and intense level game in and game out (Prust always playing with injuries over a Wolski, who wont get out of the tub) has a lot of value.

I don't think there is a ton of value to a player guys are "Afraid of" unless it is a Pronger-like defenseman.
To add to this (and i completely agree with all of it), the number of guys in the league that are tough like Pronger and can play at a high level are extremely limited. That is why they are so sought after.

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12-07-2011, 07:42 PM
  #122
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Ultimately you play the regular season to get to the Post season, and then as far in the Post season as you possiblly can.. It's just of my own opinion that the way this team stands today, and i hope i'm wrong, that this team is too soft to ever get past the 1st round of the playoffs. When a 180# 21 year old offensive forward (good for him by the way) is the only player on your team with marbles big enough to respond to Phanuef's hit on Sauer you've got some problems. Clean or not..and IMO it was a good clean hit, But it was a Stahl on Stahl type hit and we all know how that turned out.. The only thing Phanuef was thinking about was knocking Sauer into next week because his head was down. Someone needed to send Phanuef a message that "Not against us you won't".. and they didn't. Now it's too late.

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12-07-2011, 08:00 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
Ultimately you play the regular season to get to the Post season, and then as far in the Post season as you possiblly can.. It's just of my own opinion that the way this team stands today, and i hope i'm wrong, that this team is too soft to ever get past the 1st round of the playoffs. When a 180# 21 year old offensive forward (good for him by the way) is the only player on your team with marbles big enough to respond to Phanuef's hit on Sauer you've got some problems. Clean or not..and IMO it was a good clean hit, But it was a Stahl on Stahl type hit and we all know how that turned out.. The only thing Phanuef was thinking about was knocking Sauer into next week because his head was down. Someone needed to send Phanuef a message that "Not against us you won't".. and they didn't. Now it's too late.
Staal bro, staal

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12-07-2011, 08:24 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Puckface NYR View Post
How tough are the pens? Honest question...

Or Tampa who went to the ECF last year? Or Vancouver, who came within 1 game of the cup.

I dont think any of those teams is physically imposing. Sure the Bruins won, but they are a rarity in this NHL.

I don't think the Rangers out tough anyone on a given night, but I also don't think there as soft as some are making them out to be.

When healthy, Staal, Sauer and Rupp will bring toughness over guys like Stralman, Woywitka and probably Avery.
Pitt is a very physically imposing team actually. Engelland, Asham, Kunitz, Neal, Adams. Pitt plays a very physical type of game. Even Malkin and Staal play that way with their size.

Vancouver was known as the bully team out west until they reached the finals and they realized what a real bully was like in the Bruins.

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12-07-2011, 09:22 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
Ultimately you play the regular season to get to the Post season, and then as far in the Post season as you possiblly can.. It's just of my own opinion that the way this team stands today, and i hope i'm wrong, that this team is too soft to ever get past the 1st round of the playoffs. When a 180# 21 year old offensive forward (good for him by the way) is the only player on your team with marbles big enough to respond to Phanuef's hit on Sauer you've got some problems. Clean or not..and IMO it was a good clean hit, But it was a Stahl on Stahl type hit and we all know how that turned out.. The only thing Phanuef was thinking about was knocking Sauer into next week because his head was down. Someone needed to send Phanuef a message that "Not against us you won't".. and they didn't. Now it's too late.
I don't think Phanuef had intent to injure. He saw a defenseman with his head down and did the same thing half of our forwards would have done: he hit him. So with our 2nd line and 2nd pairing out on the ice, we could have removed Del Z, Richards, Feds, or Cally to fight Dion. I don't know about you, but at that point in the game, i don't want any of them heading to the locker room.

Stepan put a hit on Phaneuf. He was on the ice with Gabby and Anisimov. I certainaly don't want that line broken up at that point in the game. Anisimov clearly showed them he was willing to risk the hit when he skated into the slot in triple coverage, willing to take the hit to get the shot off. It didn't work, but i was proud to see his IDGAF attitude.

If that happened earlier in the period, or earlier in the game, you would have seen retaliation. You would have seen prust, boyle, avery, or in all likelyhood, Dubi (he tends to go after big names) get in his face, start something.

We'll see the leafs again.

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