HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Boogaard: NY Times

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-06-2011, 05:21 PM
  #1
Pennertration
Registered User
 
Pennertration's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,510
vCash: 500
Boogaard: NY Times

I thought about putting this in the news stories thread, but I really think it deserves it's own thread.

Dunno how many of you have been following the NY Times series on Boogaard, but you should check it out:

Part One
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sp...-to-brawl.html

Part Two
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/sp...n-the-ice.html

Part Three
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/sp...going-bad.html

It's excellent journalism which is worth a read and may challenge your thoughts on Boogaard, fighting, concussions and hockey in general.

(Apologies if this has been posted and I missed it).

Pennertration is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 06:31 PM
  #2
jumptheshark
the burn out
 
jumptheshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: hf retirement home
Country: United Nations
Posts: 57,665
vCash: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
I thought about putting this in the news stories thread, but I really think it deserves it's own thread.

Dunno how many of you have been following the NY Times series on Boogaard, but you should check it out:

Part One
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sp...-to-brawl.html

Part Two
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/sp...n-the-ice.html

Part Three
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/sp...going-bad.html

It's excellent journalism which is worth a read and may challenge your thoughts on Boogaard, fighting, concussions and hockey in general.

(Apologies if this has been posted and I missed it).
I posted it in out of town thread yesterday

posted it there after on a few boards things got a little nasty so I sort of hide them

jumptheshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 06:39 PM
  #3
TheNumber4
Registered User
 
TheNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 651
vCash: 500
Great piece. Has an associated 3 part video too.

TheNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 09:04 PM
  #4
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,131
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
I thought about putting this in the news stories thread, but I really think it deserves it's own thread.

Dunno how many of you have been following the NY Times series on Boogaard, but you should check it out:

Part One
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sp...-to-brawl.html

Part Two
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/sp...n-the-ice.html

Part Three
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/sp...going-bad.html

It's excellent journalism which is worth a read and may challenge your thoughts on Boogaard, fighting, concussions and hockey in general.

(Apologies if this has been posted and I missed it).
Thank you for posting this...it was an excellent read.

Quite a story there was a certain amount of embarrassment for me (as a fan of hockey) while I read parts of that.

How much of the responsibility for this part of the game should be owned by the fans?


Last edited by guymez: 12-06-2011 at 09:19 PM.
guymez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 09:21 PM
  #5
Game 8
Registered User
 
Game 8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,273
vCash: 50
They talked about it on PBS tonight, mentioned the NHL response was similar to the NFL response two years ago. Its too bad fighting is so harmful it sure is entertaining.

Game 8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 09:24 PM
  #6
doulos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Game 8 View Post
They talked about it on PBS tonight, mentioned the NHL response was similar to the NFL response two years ago. Its too bad fighting is so harmful it sure is entertaining.
I don't follow the NFL at all. What was being responded to in the NFL and what was the result? Major changes?

doulos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 09:45 PM
  #7
Game 8
Registered User
 
Game 8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,273
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos View Post
I don't follow the NFL at all. What was being responded to in the NFL and what was the result? Major changes?
They present a very impartial neutral view. The parallels you can draw are no fighting, they leave that up to you.

Game 8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 10:07 PM
  #8
Pennertration
Registered User
 
Pennertration's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,510
vCash: 500
The NHL response in these stories looks incredibly weak, borderline embarrassing. History may not judge the sport so well on this.

Also, I thought this before, but I really think it now - fighting in hockey could be done sooner than we think (depending on how you define "done"). And I might actually be OK with that. Starting to seem really cruel what's happening to these guys.

Pennertration is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 11:12 PM
  #9
harpoon
FOB
 
harpoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
How much of the responsibility for this part of the game should be owned by the fans?
Not a lot imo . Fighting has been a part of human "entertainment" culture for as long as we've had societies .
Science is only now able to show us the cost of that "entertainment" to those who participate .

I feel sorry for Boogaard , Rypien , Belak and Kordic (among others) who died battling a terrible mental fatigue which must have been at least partly work related ... and I certainly sympathize with the grieving family members who survive them . However , if you take a dangerous job you do so at your own peril .
Those who strap themselves into cars and travel at ungodly speeds around an oval for the delight of beer swilling patrons like those who punch each other silly on the pay perview MMA cards know full well that every performance could be their last . Somehow they have rationalized that in their minds .

I've heard that MMA and the other straight up fighting sports are very popular in North America , certainly auto racing is popular . Many participants in these two sports have lost their lives over the past couple decades while on the field of play - in front of the audience that came , in part , titillated by the very fact that someone could die . Every time a driver dies on the track its a tragedy that clearly could have been prevented . Yet after a few days of shock the green flag drops again and the very same guys who just watched their buddy die in a wreck go out and repeat the behavior .

Compared to some sports then hockey (for all its violence) does not usually result in people dying . Considering that everyone has blades and sticks , that's even more remarkable . Still , there's always a risk (who could forget Clink Malarchuck spurting blood all around his crease) and if you decide to take on the job of professional ice hockey fighter that risk only intensifies .

People like watching other people take risks . Its a fact of life .
For me personally I'm not a big fan of the fighting sports but I can and do enjoy a fight in a hockey game where the whole incident might only take a few minutes and is not the focal point of the evening's entertainment . I think the designated fighter who can't play a lick of hockey should be taken out of the game (couldn't stand SMac when he was here) but removing fighting from the game altogether dilutes the meaning of the word "ice hockey" , and given the dangers present in other paid sporting events it would seem to be a hypocritical course of action as well .

harpoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 11:17 PM
  #10
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 39,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Thank you for posting this...it was an excellent read.

Quite a story there was a certain amount of embarrassment for me (as a fan of hockey) while I read parts of that.

How much of the responsibility for this part of the game should be owned by the fans?
Yeah, you get an idea now of why I'm so opposed to fighting in the game. So many victims in this just for the sake of our passive amusement.

Disgusts me really that kids all over figure they have to emulate this stuff to play Canadian hockey.

Its time to get the neanderthal concepts out of the Canadian notion of the game.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 11:40 PM
  #11
Pennertration
Registered User
 
Pennertration's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,510
vCash: 500
Hockey kids don't grow up dreaming of fighting each other on skates but because that loophole allows them the remote possibility of hoisting the Stanley Cup, people will see it through to the end ... no matter what that end might be.

Pennertration is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 11:51 PM
  #12
Rin
Registered User
 
Rin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern Alberta
Country: Lebanon
Posts: 12,549
vCash: 500
Thanks for sharing this. I was skeptic at first that I'd have the attention span to read all 21 pages, but as soon as I was about 2 or 3 pages in, I knew I was going to finish it. It was an awesome read, thanks again!

Rin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 02:21 AM
  #13
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 53,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
Hockey kids don't grow up dreaming of fighting each other on skates but because that loophole allows them the remote possibility of hoisting the Stanley Cup, people will see it through to the end ... no matter what that end might be.
Not to mention a pretty damn good living. Not everyone can afford to go to college, have the intelligence to get into college, or into trade schools. If you give a poor kid a chance to make a million $ or better in the span of 2-3 years just because he happens to be a tough hombre, many would do a lot worse than fight 10-20 times a year in a controlled environment where people are always waiting to break it up if someone gets into trouble.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 08:26 AM
  #14
Little Fury
Registered User
 
Little Fury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Not to mention a pretty damn good living. Not everyone can afford to go to college, have the intelligence to get into college, or into trade schools. If you give a poor kid a chance to make a million $ or better in the span of 2-3 years just because he happens to be a tough hombre, many would do a lot worse than fight 10-20 times a year in a controlled environment where people are always waiting to break it up if someone gets into trouble.
That's part of the problem, though.

Little Fury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 08:37 AM
  #15
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 26,107
vCash: 350
Maybe it's just me, but isn't his kinda old news? Hasn't WWE of all places already let us know that repeated blows to the heads have long-term effects?

Again you don't have to be a sports athlete and risk the dangers that go along with it, but in the end it's all about money. No really different than all those Olympians a few years back that said they'd take steroids if it meant winning a gold medal even though they know the long-term effects. Winning and money talks.

joestevens29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:38 AM
  #16
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 53,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Fury View Post
That's part of the problem, though.
What is? The allure of making a lot of $? There are guys that make a lot less than NHL wages fighting, look at Abney in the ECHL for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Maybe it's just me, but isn't his kinda old news? Hasn't WWE of all places already let us know that repeated blows to the heads have long-term effects?

Again you don't have to be a sports athlete and risk the dangers that go along with it, but in the end it's all about money. No really different than all those Olympians a few years back that said they'd take steroids if it meant winning a gold medal even though they know the long-term effects. Winning and money talks.
Yup, a lot of these guys could do this professionally for 3-5 years and retire/take up a different profession.

Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:43 AM
  #17
Joe Hallenback
Registered User
 
Joe Hallenback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,821
vCash: 777
Newsflash physical contact to the body could have long term effects to your health

I often wonder how this is shocking to some people but then again I guess most people don't play sports at high levels and don't understand what most players already know. Playing physical contact sports can cause you health issues in the future.

Joe Hallenback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:45 AM
  #18
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 39,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
What is? The allure of making a lot of $? There are guys that make a lot less than NHL wages fighting, look at Abney in the ECHL for example.



Yup, a lot of these guys could do this professionally for 3-5 years and retire/take up a different profession.
After brain damage?

People are really understating the effects of the rains of punches to the head. Resultant damage accruing much quicker than people seem to realize.

The annals of boxing, hockey pugilists are full of comments to the effect of how impacted the individuals felt early in their career.

George Chuvalo, after a fight with Joe Frasier in the 60's seriously thought he would not survive the fight and the beating he took and was surprised to recover. Although recovery involved never being the same, never thinking the same. He fought for many more years but rarely felt healthy enough to be in the ring.

Spend years going toe to toe with guys in the Junior ranks and then the NHL and you're done. The brain is damaged with that kind of ongoing beating.
Medically we're just scratching the surface of how much.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:47 AM
  #19
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 26,107
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Newsflash physical contact to the body could have long term effects to your health

I often wonder how this is shocking to some people but then again I guess most people don't play sports at high levels and don't understand what most players already know. Playing physical contact sports can cause you health issues in the future.
You don't need to play at high levels to realize this. I look at how many people I went to high school with that have problems from the sports they played during that time, myself included.

joestevens29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:48 AM
  #20
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 26,107
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
After brain damage?

People are really understating the effects of the rains of punches to the head. Resultant damage accruing much quicker than people seem to realize.

The annals of boxing, hockey pugilists are full of comments to the effect of how impacted the individuals felt early in their career.

George Chuvalo, after a fight with Joe Frasier in the 60's seriously thought he would not survive the fight and the beating he took and was surprised to recover. Although recovery involved never being the same, never thinking the same. He fought for many more years but rarely felt healthy enough to be in the ring.

Spend years going toe to toe with guys in the Junior ranks and then the NHL and you're done. The brain is damaged with that kind of ongoing beating.
Medically we're just scratching the surface of how much.
Barnaby sure seemed to be doing okay until his latest stint, so ya there is guys that can do quite well. How many ex-goons are now employed by tv networks or NHL teams?

joestevens29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:53 AM
  #21
copperandblue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,724
vCash: 500
Finally got a chance to read it, I agree it was an excellent series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Thank you for posting this...it was an excellent read.

Quite a story there was a certain amount of embarrassment for me (as a fan of hockey) while I read parts of that.

How much of the responsibility for this part of the game should be owned by the fans?
As for this question, I would say none.

That said, I think the teams - both at the Jr and NHL level - should have the spotlight shone on them a little more brightly over these issues.

copperandblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 11:59 AM
  #22
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 53,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
After brain damage?

People are really understating the effects of the rains of punches to the head. Resultant damage accruing much quicker than people seem to realize.

The annals of boxing, hockey pugilists are full of comments to the effect of how impacted the individuals felt early in their career.

George Chuvalo, after a fight with Joe Frasier in the 60's seriously thought he would not survive the fight and the beating he took and was surprised to recover. Although recovery involved never being the same, never thinking the same. He fought for many more years but rarely felt healthy enough to be in the ring.

Spend years going toe to toe with guys in the Junior ranks and then the NHL and you're done. The brain is damaged with that kind of ongoing beating.
Medically we're just scratching the surface of how much.
Well last that I checked hockey fights don't last 10, 12, or 15 3 minute rounds. I have no doubt that there would be a lasting effect, however you act as if every fighter ends up being Muhammad Ali when they are done. Semenko is a scout, George Foreman has made more $ after fighting than while fighting, etc. Fighting or even just getting crushed into the boards for lengthy periods will take a toll, hell how many people that have played physically demanding sports like Hockey, football, basketball, etc. have injuries from them even at a recreational level? It's the price that you pay for fame/money, if you choose to do it then these are the risks. I agree that the risks should be mentioned to the guys doing it, but ultimately it is every bit their choice as it is yours or mine to smoke, drink, etc. that will possibly affect our quality of life long term. What about those that just like to fight for ***** and giggles? Do you think that they'd turn down hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it? How many fight in MMA, hockey, etc. just because they love to do it? Maybe some of the pro's don't, however no one forced them to do it, they could be laborers making much less $, they chose not to. Ultimately if you ban fighting from hockey, we'd never hear of a Derek Boogard, because he wouldn't play in the NHL, he may have died at 28 a broke farm boy or locked up in jail for all that we know.

Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 12:06 PM
  #23
NotBad*
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,728
vCash: 500
My biggest issue with the study is that we dont have any information from a normal player at a young age.

What does Smid's brain look like right now? Or savards? Out of the 4 brains they have studied 1 was not an enforcer yet he had the same signs as the other 3.

NotBad* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 12:11 PM
  #24
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 26,107
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Well last that I checked hockey fights don't last 10, 12, or 15 3 minute rounds. I have no doubt that there would be a lasting effect, however you act as if every fighter ends up being Muhammad Ali when they are done. Semenko is a scout, George Foreman has made more $ after fighting than while fighting, etc. Fighting or even just getting crushed into the boards for lengthy periods will take a toll, hell how many people that have played physically demanding sports like Hockey, football, basketball, etc. have injuries from them even at a recreational level? It's the price that you pay for fame/money, if you choose to do it then these are the risks. I agree that the risks should be mentioned to the guys doing it, but ultimately it is every bit their choice as it is yours or mine to smoke, drink, etc. that will possibly affect our quality of life long term. What about those that just like to fight for ***** and giggles? Do you think that they'd turn down hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it? How many fight in MMA, hockey, etc. just because they love to do it? Maybe some of the pro's don't, however no one forced them to do it, they could be laborers making much less $, they chose not to. Ultimately if you ban fighting from hockey, we'd never hear of a Derek Boogard, because he wouldn't play in the NHL, he may have died at 28 a broke farm boy or locked up in jail for all that we know.
x2. I'd add that being in the NHL also gives them some top notch doctors to help them, something that might not be available to the average joe.

joestevens29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 12:12 PM
  #25
Tremor
Registered User
 
Tremor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 40
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Not a lot imo . Fighting has been a part of human "entertainment" culture for as long as we've had societies ...
Excellent post, I couldn't have put it better myself. If people want to get paid to put themselves in danger, let them do it.

Tremor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.