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Old
06-06-2012, 04:39 AM
  #301
harpoon
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Not to mention that the players that fighters and that have been trained to be hockey fighters through repitition commonly become patients for this type of medication.
I have a friend who is a pro skateboarder and he gets injured so often that he has a standing prescription for painkillers. He tells me that many of his friends and acquaintances regularly rely on painkillers to get through competitions. Would it be fair to say then that skateboarders "commonly" become patients for this type of medication?

The point is .... an injury is an injury is an injury. It really makes little difference if you crushed your fingers beating on someone's head or crushed them rolling logs in a sawmill or whatever. All ice hockey players face the risk of chronic injury whether they fight or not - and that means all ice hockey players are at risk to be "over treated" and find themselves on a cycle of pain meds that they can't get off. It beggars belief that this point is not being acknowledged by many in this thread.

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Plus that in Boogaards specific circumstance his habituation to painkillers/ sleeping prescriptions happened due to the injuries and effects of fighting.
See above. Boogaard's habituation to dangerous pain medications happened because his doctors handed them out like candies and he was unable to stop taking them on his own. He could have just as easily lost all his teeth blocking a shot or getting his face run through the boards.

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Its misleading to just look at the last prescriptions or any particular time period of use. The Long NY times article previously quoted already detailed his chronic and developed use over time and the reasons why.
With all due respect, if you read the latest article (it was a long one too) it seems that Boogaard's own father was unsatisfied with the "findings" of previous articles and set about to uncover the facts of his son's medical treatment.

In all honesty can you think of any reason a person needs 200+ pills to get through every month? Or why a professional athlete would need to visit four,five, six different doctors to ensure that he had enough pills? Or how management of the teams for which he played could be unaware that such a thing was going on?

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06-06-2012, 04:43 AM
  #302
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I suspect a great deal of his pills were obtained through double-doctoring and illegally (iirc his brother supplied the pills that killed him). You can stop double-doctoring with centralized patient-care records, like Alberta's Wellnet. But across different states (and provinces) that is logistically and legally problematic and unlikely to exist any time soon. In other words, you can't blame the doctors.

Yes, some pills were prescribed to him even after his addictions were known. But opiates are not something you can just stop giving someone. Plus you still have to treat his pain. Near the end, his opiate use was being monitored, which is why he had to resort to illegal means of obtaining them. Hard to fault the NHL or his doctors there. Also, his Ambien usage was hardly an issue or anything out of the ordinary. Insomnia can be notoriously hard to treat, and long-term usage is very commonplace.

This was a tragedy. Boogaard had the hardest job in the NHL, and it took a heavy emotional and physical toll on him. He abused drugs to cope and died as a result. This did not happen because doctors love the prestige of being affiliated with an NHL team, and check their integrity at the door. Charges of neglience or incompetency would have been already filed if they were appropriate. The NY Times is doing a smear-job on these guys.

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06-06-2012, 05:17 AM
  #303
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You raise some worthwhile points.

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Originally Posted by Oiler11 View Post
I suspect a great deal of his pills were obtained through double-doctoring and illegally (iirc his brother supplied the pills that killed him).
The article does state that toward the end of his life Boogaard had started acquiring pills from street dealers. It has also been written in this article and other earlier articles that his brother was trying to help wean him off the pills and gave him one single pill the night he died. Assuming that he loved his brother but had minimal medical knowledge, I think its kind of unfair to lay the blame at Aaron's feet.

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You can stop double-doctoring with centralized patient-care records, like Alberta's Wellnet. But across different states (and provinces) that is logistically and legally problematic and unlikely to exist any time soon. In other words, you can't blame the doctors.
Great point. No doubt this makes it easier for people to abuse the system.

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Opiates are not something you can just stop giving someone. Plus you still have to treat his pain. Near the end, his opiate use was being monitored, which is why he had to resort to illegal means of obtaining them. Hard to fault the NHL or his doctors there.
Why would Mr Boogaard's pain levels have been so much higher than any other random person who suffered a broken nose or a dislocated shoulder? I suspect that the quantity of medication consumed was far greater than what would have been necessary to manage the pain resulting from ohysical injuries sustained while playing hockey.

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Also, his Ambien usage was hardly an issue or anything out of the ordinary. Insomnia can be notoriously hard to treat, and long-term usage is very commonplace.
I'm not a doctor so perhaps you know better than I, however the article clearly says that the drug is not for long term use and that dangerous side effects (depression etc) are well known to occur.

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This was a tragedy. Boogaard had the hardest job in the NHL, and it took a heavy emotional and physical toll on him. He abused drugs to cope and died as a result.
Yet millions of people have far harder jobs than the one Boogaard did and they manage to "cope" without becoming addicted to pain meds. Some of that is certainly down to Boogaard's personality but I don't think the ease with which he obtained the medication can be discounted as a factor. I dare you to go ask your doctor for 200 oxycontin tomorrow and see what s/he says.

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This did not happen because doctors love the prestige of being affiliated with an NHL team, and check their integrity at the door. Charges of neglience or incompetency would have been already filed if they were appropriate. The NY Times is doing a smear-job on these guys.
If the article is an inaccurate smear job I wonder why charges of libel etc have not been filed? Perhaps a guy like Boogaard doesn't warrant the attention of say a Michael Jackson?

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06-06-2012, 07:42 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
Way to focus on one line and completely miss the point. You can go back and read my entire post if you like. If my point was too subtle, I'm talking about bad doctors, doctors that don't care, doctors only in it for money. That small percentage of doctors, to quote myself "it's the small percentage that ruins the bunch", these doctors are killing and not healing. They don't care about the cause of sickness they will treat the symptoms. They will give you drugs till your symptoms go away.

A good doctor, one who cares, is worth his/her weight in gold...if not more.
I did read your entire post and I do agree with it for the most part. There are bad doctors out who do over prescribe drugs. The whole "Is there a pill for that?" mentality of our society is getting completely out of hand.

The problem I had with your post were the two points

- Doctors kill more than they save
- The death rate goes down when doctors go on strike

Both of these are not exclusive to "bad doctors". Is it just the bad doctors that are going on strike? Are the bad doctors killing more people than the good doctors are saving?

But of course I'm just speculating here. Care to explain what you meant?

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06-06-2012, 08:46 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
His treatment certainly plays into his death and may indeed be the cause of it. But would he need such treatment if he weren't a fighter?
If he wasn't a fighter things could be worse. Not too many of these fighters are exactly Harvard grads. Boogard had issues that went back to Junior High and High School. Playing hockey could very well have kept him alive longer.

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06-06-2012, 08:49 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
This is not isolated to the NHL, regular people die every day for overdose or misuse of prescription drugs. I myself have lost a friend to oxycontin he was in his early twenties. The dangers of these drugs must be made more apparent. Doctors are killing more people than they are saving. I've heard it said that the death rate plummets when the doctors go on strike. No hit on doctors there are many that are good honest doctors that really care about their patients, it's the small percentage that ruins the bunch. But how do you get rid of bad doctors?
I'm starting to think that oxycontin is the steroids of the 2000's. Luckily people are realizing the effects of oxycontin a lot sooner than the people that juiced up in the 70's, 80's, 90's.

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Originally Posted by Pennertration View Post
I think it's easy to blame doctors - they definitely are responsible for the care of their patients - but you also need to ask: why was Boogard seeking medical attention?
I thought he had back problems.

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06-06-2012, 08:59 AM
  #307
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/sp...ewanted=1&_r=1

Good article on what he went through. I don't think that his problems were all because of fighting in hockey. Broke his collarbone at 13, which resulted in shoulder problems for the rest of his life. Not sure if this was hockey related, but lets say it was, would anyone think this would result in him having a drug problem 10 years later?

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06-06-2012, 09:45 AM
  #308
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You'de think with the modern technology that Dr.s would be able to flag the over use and over prescription of some of these drugs like painkillers. I'm sure if they can devise an app to tell people how long the wait time in emergency rooms are, they can develop one that tells Dr's what prescriptions have been filled and by whom.

Although I do realize as well that there is a large black market for these kinds of drugs, so if you have the cash, you can easily get them nonetheless.

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06-06-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
You'de think with the modern technology that Dr.s would be able to flag the over use and over prescription of some of these drugs like painkillers. I'm sure if they can devise an app to tell people how long the wait time in emergency rooms are, they can develop one that tells Dr's what prescriptions have been filled and by whom.

Although I do realize as well that there is a large black market for these kinds of drugs, so if you have the cash, you can easily get them nonetheless.
Like some people mentioned, if you are in the same state/province you can probably track this, but you start bouncing around from state to state and it's not hard to get around. Plus he was getting off the street as well. You want it you'll get it.

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06-06-2012, 11:28 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
I have a friend who is a pro skateboarder and he gets injured so often that he has a standing prescription for painkillers. He tells me that many of his friends and acquaintances regularly rely on painkillers to get through competitions. Would it be fair to say then that skateboarders "commonly" become patients for this type of medication?
I consider, and I'll be frank about this, that skateboarding is something that shouldn't be encouraged as much as it has been. I can't imagine the risk involved in pro skateboarding. Especially with the degree of difficulty required in many stunts. I look at that kind of thing and contemplate how well people understand they have one body only for life. So I do find it excessivly dangerous and I'm not surprised at the association of the sport with painkillers.

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The point is .... an injury is an injury is an injury.
No it isn't. A normal injury infers a type of accident and unexpected mechanism of injury occurred. People normally don't involve in passtimes consisting of putting ones head in a Lions mouth. One person might be Evil Knievel or a hollwood stuntman in which an injury isn't an injury but instead an overwhelming probability. In our society for some reason we've encouraged increasingly excessive risk taking. The whole advent of extreme sports being an example.

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It really makes little difference if you crushed your fingers beating on someone's head or crushed them rolling logs in a sawmill or whatever. All ice hockey players face the risk of chronic injury whether they fight or not - and that means all ice hockey players are at risk to be "over treated" and find themselves on a cycle of pain meds that they can't get off. It beggars belief that this point is not being acknowledged by many in this thread.
You can't possibly be arguing that the the risk to hockey players of chronic injury is the same for enforcers as for other players. There would be a difference. There would also be a difference in how much pain an enforcer is expected to withstand. As for the point about "overtreatment" this is not a one off instance and overtreatment of sports professionals is rampant and was pretty much a given. So for quite a longtime you could pretty much assume overuse and overprescribing which occurred in this instance. Its also been clear for a longtime if not indefinitely that the doctor patient relationship is different with people considered more important and who largely get what they want. Especially if they have the backing of a pro team and a powerful association and league looking the other way at best..

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See above. Boogaard's habituation to dangerous pain medications happened because his doctors handed them out like candies and he was unable to stop taking them on his own.
Well who didn't think this was going to be an end result for several enforcers?

For those of us that have been intimately familiar with Oxycodone use/abuse through work, and who have studied this painkiller and its effects its been quite clear what the patterns of increasingly excessive use would be. These legal opiodes have created addiction like few other substances. Possibly the most addictive substance known to mankind. We're looking at it somwhat differently as to cause and effect but the fact remains that fighting, boxing, jumping off cliffs, etc, were more dangerous pursuits during the advent, and time of such painkiller prescriptions being the wonder drug of the day. Indeed these powerful painkillers enable continued injurious behavior to occur whereby natural pain would've ceased such continued behavior.

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With all due respect, if you read the latest article (it was a long one too) it seems that Boogaard's own father was unsatisfied with the "findings" of previous articles and set about to uncover the facts of his son's medical treatment.
It would be unpleasant for me to rebut this point here so I won't.

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In all honesty can you think of any reason a person needs 200+ pills to get through every month? Or why a professional athlete would need to visit four,five, six different doctors to ensure that he had enough pills? Or how management of the teams for which he played could be unaware that such a thing was going on?
You seem entirely unfamiliar with the drug interaction effect of such legal opiodes. Habituated response occurs alarmingly to prolonged prescription and use of these substances which is due to fairly complex receptor/synapse pathways and what the drugs due to otherwise normal synaptic connections. Dependence, and requirement for increasing doses is a profile of this drug. That the Pharmaceutical manufacturers lied about. That they have been class action sued about.

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06-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #311
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I consider, and I'll be frank about this, that skateboarding is something that shouldn't be encouraged as much as it has been. I can't imagine the risk involved in pro skateboarding. Especially with the degree of difficulty required in many stunts. I look at that kind of thing and contemplate how well people understand they have one body only for life. So I do find it excessivly dangerous and I'm not surprised at the association of the sport with painkillers.

No it isn't. A normal injury infers a type of accident and unexpected mechanism of injury occurred. People normally don't involve in passtimes consisting of putting ones head in a Lions mouth. One person might be Evil Knievel or a hollwood stuntman in which an injury isn't an injury but instead an overwhelming probability. In our society for some reason we've encouraged increasingly excessive risk taking. The whole advent of extreme sports being an example.
.
Do you live in a bubble? Don't take risks in life? Then don't let kids play in parks or play basketball on concrete pads. Don't let them play baseball where they can get beaned with a ball and have an arm broken or get concussed.

Skateboarding shouldn't be encouraged? It's no more dangerous than any other sport for a kid.

For a guy that likes football and hockey I really don't understand your take on concussions.

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06-06-2012, 11:54 AM
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^ I was referring to competitive skateboarding.

Although I've had an office located right next to a typical skateboard park before. I know that ambulances show up regularly. Bones crashing against concrete is rarely a good result.

Skateboarding is great when a teen. Not so much when and if you suffer the aftereffects decades later.

As to Hockey and Football I figured out a good time to get out of it. Sure theres ample risks in those sports. I prefer to play Soccer, tennis, go cycling, hiking, etc.

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06-06-2012, 11:59 AM
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One of the big reasons I don't play in the Men's senior league is because I don't want to have to fight. Far too old for that nonsense nowadays. I just skate with some beer leaguers for fun even if they are no where near as good as I am.

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06-06-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
^ I was referring to competitive skateboarding.

Although I've had an office located right next to a typical skateboard park before. I know that ambulances show up regularly. Bones crashing against concrete is rarely a good result.

Skateboarding is great when a teen. Not so much when and if you suffer the aftereffects decades later.

As to Hockey and Football I figured out a good time to get out of it. Sure theres ample risks in those sports. I prefer to play Soccer, tennis, go cycling, hiking, etc.
That's like most sports. Even those sports you listed have a lot of potential for injuries. Comes with the territory, want to be safe play darts or shoot pool.

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06-06-2012, 12:04 PM
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That's like most sports. Even those sports you listed have a lot of potential for injuries. Comes with the territory, want to be safe play darts or shoot pool.
Some healthy activity and sport is safer than others. I don't mind picking activities that involve less chance of injury to myself. I'm aware of the risks when I'm cycling and have experienced them.

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06-06-2012, 02:02 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
You raise some worthwhile points.

Assuming that he loved his brother but had minimal medical knowledge, I think its kind of unfair to lay the blame at Aaron's feet.
Not laying blame, simply pointing out the pills that ultimately did Boogaard in probably did not come from a legitimate source.

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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Yet millions of people have far harder jobs than the one Boogaard did and they manage to "cope" without becoming addicted to pain meds. Some of that is certainly down to Boogaard's personality but I don't think the ease with which he obtained the medication can be discounted as a factor. I dare you to go ask your doctor for 200 oxycontin tomorrow and see what s/he says.
Yes, personality is the biggest factor, IMO. Why do some kids raised in the same house, become alcoholics or addicts while their siblings don't? The ease of obtaining the pills is almost irrelevant; some people wouldn't take them even if they were given them, others seek them out at any cost. As for asking my doctor for 200 oxycontin pills, I doubt he'd do it. Maybe for 60, though. Then next road trip, I ask the Wild doctor for another 60. And the Columbus Dr. for another 60...not too long before I'm at your 200. All the while, I'm telling each doctor that I'm using them as they are intended, but I've run out.

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If the article is an inaccurate smear job I wonder why charges of libel etc have not been filed? Perhaps a guy like Boogaard doesn't warrant the attention of say a Michael Jackson?
That's pretty cynical on your part. I know in Alberta, you don't have to be famous for a doctor to be investigated if you die from an overdose. I've seen a doctor lose his license due to over-prescribing of oxycontin, and his patients weren't pop-stars. The review process is standard; patient social standing is not a factor, nor is the doctors affiliation with a sports team.

As for the lack of a libel case, reading the article, they are pretty sneaky. They start the article acknowledging there is not centralized depot of patient info, so the doctors operate without knowledge of what the others are doing. They insinuate the blame is on the NHL that such a system doesn't exist. A little bit of leg-work would have shown them that legal/privacy issues prevent the dissemination of health information like that. Then the article lists, in an inflammatory fashion, the quantities of the drugs he was prescribed, as though they came from a single, informed medical team - even though they started the article stating such a team did not exist. A disingenuous article, but not libelous.

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