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Old
12-07-2011, 05:11 PM
  #51
Little Fury
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
No I was telling them the truth about this sport that it is violent and physical. That is without fighting in it. If it is too much for you too see your 12 year old son get hit hard multiple times in a game then either don't watch(alot of moms do this. They stop going to the games because they can't handle it) or have your kids play a different sport.

People glorify these kinds of issues more than they should. People die in all aspects of life. In all kinds of jobs. They do it because they want to do it or they have to do it. It doesn't make it any more important or less important then a Police officer who gets shot on the job or a steel factory worker who dies on the job.

Too me it seems people don't understand their our dangerous jobs that may result in injury or yes even death out their.


We're talking about a game, played for entertainment. And here's the kicker: the stuff we're talking about is not even an intrinsic part of the game, but some weird outgrowth of it.

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12-07-2011, 05:19 PM
  #52
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Great article(s).

Sad story.

I understand Aaron doesn't have a Plan B, but I don't know how he's continuing to be an enforcer(especially in a league like the CHL) after what happened to his brother.

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12-07-2011, 05:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
BTW

Rick Martin who played with the Sabres who never had a fight in his life had this same disease that Boogaard had
He had suffered from a severe concussion which probably contributed to that.

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12-07-2011, 06:16 PM
  #54
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He had suffered from a severe concussion which probably contributed to that.
Plus he was more than 30 yrs older. CTE is known to advance with age. Its a known degenerative condition.

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12-07-2011, 06:27 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
It's the price that you pay for fame/money, if you choose to do it then these are the risks. I agree that the risks should be mentioned to the guys doing it, but ultimately it is every bit their choice as it is yours or mine to smoke, drink, etc. that will possibly affect our quality of life long term.

Ultimately if you ban fighting from hockey, we'd never hear of a Derek Boogard, because he wouldn't play in the NHL, he may have died at 28 a broke farm boy or locked up in jail for all that we know.
Couldn't agree more . The function of society is not to remove all the risk options from the table .

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12-07-2011, 06:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
BTW

Rick Martin who played with the Sabres who never had a fight in his life had this same disease that Boogaard had
Oh you mean Rick Martin a guy who, like most players of his generation, played without a helmet during maybe the toughest and most brutal era of hockey. Yeah I can understand why he would suffer from brain damage. There's a reason you have to wear a helmet nowadays.

Clearly years of fighting/trauma to the head will/may cause severe brain damage, I don't even think there is a serious debate on that. If you don't believe it you're in denial. I think the question is whether we are prepared to let the players risk their health and even lives for our entertainment?

You can claim that they are grown men, aware of the risk and old enough to make their own decisions.

First of all I don't think 16-17 year olds are grown men, I think it's pretty odd that a lot of people seem so okay with kids that age batting it out. When you're that age you're an idiot and if someone tells you that you can make money/earn respect/get laid by fighting you sure as hell will. And you won't give a **** about consequences, you're 17, you're immortal for crying out loud.

But after 18 then? Well sure, if you fully know what you get yourself into and what might, or even is fairly likely, be the consequences and people around you will have your back if things start to go south. The problem is I don't think most people have a clue how severe the damage could be, what kind of price you might end up paying.
And I'm pretty damn sure that people around you won't have your back, your family and friends might try, but a lot of the time they have a very vague view of what's going on. And the people who may know, the coaches, the club, the league, the agents, the team doctors, they don't give a **** about an enforcer, they don't give a **** if he's on painkillers, if he's depressed, if he's had ten concussions. As long as he keeps helping the team win and the club and the league and the agent making money they're happy, they'll gladly look the other way. And if he burns out there's plenty of fighters out there to take his place.

It took for the league's biggest star to get severly concussed before they did anything about head shots. Because they realized they might lose money on star players getting their careers cut short. Sure as hell not because they care about the players as individuals, if they did they'd taken care of it years ago.

Sure I'm being cynical here but I think it's pretty naive to think these guys have a clue about the actual risk involved and that anyone around them will have their back. There's too much money, pride and competitiveness in the league and in the game for that.

Injuries is a part of being an athlete, sure, but there's a big difference between a busted knee, a messed up shoulder or a couple of fingers that can't be straightened compared to brain damage.

I saw that someone mentioned professional boxing as well and the fact that hockey fights aren't 10, 12, 15 rounds of fighting. Well boxing isn't bare knuckle fighting and in pro boxing they fight 3-4 times a year, maybe up to 6 times when they first start out, they have plenty of time to prepare for each fight. Muhammed Ali had a total of 61 fights in his pro career. Boogard had 70 between 16 and 19 years of age.

And the thing is, hockey doesn't really need the fighting. It's not crucial to the game as such. Some of you may disagree, but at least agree that in comparison to for example boxing where the fighting is clearly unavoidable, the fighting in hockey doesn't matter that much to the actual game.

You can never fully get away from risks when playing hockey, or even living, but you can avoid stupid risks. And imo, fighting in hockey is a stupid risk.

I'm all for everyone being responsible for his or her own life, but sometimes a person has less choice than you might think and has a harder time making an informed decision than you might think. I understand the reasoning behind him fighting by free will and therefore having to face the consequences. I just don't agree with it, I used to until a few of years ago, but I don't anymore.

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Old
12-08-2011, 12:22 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Great article(s).

Sad story.

I understand Aaron doesn't have a Plan B, but I don't know how he's continuing to be an enforcer(especially in a league like the CHL) after what happened to his brother.
$$$$

It really is a percentages game. How many enforcers have died?

Kind of like getting on a plane to take a trip, yeah there have been plane crashes before however when compared to the number of safe flights it's not even an issue.

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12-08-2011, 12:34 PM
  #58
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$$$$

It really is a percentages game. How many enforcers have died?

Kind of like getting on a plane to take a trip, yeah there have been plane crashes before however when compared to the number of safe flights it's not even an issue.
I guess, but how much money do guys make in the Central Hockey League? A guy like Aaron would be making $50-55k a year in the AHL and the CHL is two tiers below that.

I'm not saying he's guaranteed to develop the same thing as Derek, but he's definitely increasing the odds of it.

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12-08-2011, 12:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I guess, but how much money do guys make in the Central Hockey League? A guy like Aaron would be making $50-55k a year in the AHL and the CHL is two tiers below that.

I'm not saying he's guaranteed to develop the same thing as Derek, but he's definitely increasing the odds of it.
More than likely that's all he knows. Work 7-8 months playing hockey and then 4-5 as whatever.

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12-08-2011, 12:51 PM
  #60
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I think it's great that there is more attention and awareness on subjects like this if only so young men can make a more informed decision about how to play and succeed at the game they love.

I personally do not believe that fighting should be taken out of hockey completely but that being said I am not a fan of the premeditated fights. I don't like seeing two guys square off after a draw simply because there are both known as "goons", that isn't in any way interesting to me.

I believe they have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies and lives. The fact that people may find it disturbing that they are put at risk for our amusement is essentially irrelevant in my opinion. Sports in general are a risk, it's part of the reason we find them entertaining. To watch the best of the best compete at a level that is beyond the rest of us and would likely seriously injure most. We enjoy it. I enjoy it and I'm not ashamed of that fact. I do however believe that it will be important to the game going forward to have players more aware of the possible long term affects so that they can decide if that is a risk they want to take. If they choose to do so for whatever reason, I do believe that is their right.

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Old
12-08-2011, 01:01 PM
  #61
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Especially in junior. It's all fine and dandy to take the libertarian viewpoint that adults should be allowed to participate, but the jr hockey meat grinder is doing the same thing to kids. If I ordered a child to go recklessly assault another child, I'd be in jail. But if you're a coach, it's part of your job description.

I stopped cheering fights this year. Last year I stood up and cheered like an ancient Roman when MacIntyre ended Ivanans' NHL career. I'm ashamed I did that.

Now, having said that, I did roll my eyes at many of the comments on the NY Times stories. All those righteous Americans who can't believe the savagery of the genial Canadians, while they cheer on the best 300 pound experiments of modern medicine who have much worse outcomes on average than NHL players after their careers are done.
Not to mention the MMA craze and prior to that boxing. Americans turning their nose up because of fighting in hockey is complete hypocrisy. Hell even bench clearing brawls in baseball are cheered on. Just because many Americans could give a rats ass about hockey doesn't mean that hockey fights are any more barbaric than a lot of what they cheer on.

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He doesn't fight he's alive. Its really that simple.
This is pure speculation on your part and stating it as fact. He was a troubled kid growing up, I only read the first 7 pages of the story so far and it said as much. Troubled kid, not good in school, yeah that always leads to a long and prosperous life, no other potential outcome

He was picked on as a kid, who is to say that his bouts of depression didn't start way back then? You have no idea whether he would've been alive today had he not made it, for all we know if he didn't get to chase his dream he would've ended his life much earlier. I mean who has ever heard of depressed addicts outside of hockey enforcers?

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Teenage boys fighting how barbaric why they don't do that outside the sport now do they
Never!

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Old
12-08-2011, 01:09 PM
  #62
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x2. I'd add that being in the NHL also gives them some top notch doctors to help them, something that might not be available to the average joe.
Yeah really great doctors.

Quote:
Most N.H.L. teams have about 10 affiliated doctors specialists and dentists with practices of their own. Boogaard had learned that there was no system to track who was prescribing what.

In one three-month stretch of the 2008-9 season with the Wild, Boogaard received at least 11 prescriptions for painkillers from eight doctors including at least one doctor for a different team, according to records gathered by his father, Len Boogaard. Combined, the prescriptions were for 370 tablets of painkillers containing hydrocodone, typically sold under brand names like Vicodin.

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12-08-2011, 01:15 PM
  #63
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Not to mention the MMA craze and prior to that boxing. Americans turning their nose up because of fighting in hockey is complete hypocrisy. Hell even bench clearing brawls in baseball are cheered on. Just because many Americans could give a rats ass about hockey doesn't mean that hockey fights are any more barbaric than a lot of what they cheer on.
That's an aside though. It doesn't justify sending out to kids to fight each other. Putting on a dog fight is illegal, but sending two minors out to stage a fight for no reason? THAT'S HOCKEY!!!!

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12-08-2011, 01:34 PM
  #64
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perplexing to see todd fedoruk on twitter questioning the scientists who are bringing CTE into the light. here's a guy who has struggled with addiction and depression for the better part of a decade and has had repeated traumatic blows to the head.

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12-08-2011, 01:38 PM
  #65
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That's an aside though. It doesn't justify sending out to kids to fight each other. Putting on a dog fight is illegal, but sending two minors out to stage a fight for no reason? THAT'S HOCKEY!!!!
Yup there is a big difference between playing hockey and ending up in a fight and sending someone out with the specific intent to fight.

Prior to reading the article I never found myself thinking much about it but it really drives the point home when you read the part about him commenting that he has probably had about 300 hockey fights (an embelishment I am sure - but probably safe to say it's over 200) but then see that he only had 66 fights as an NHL player.

You could probably argue that it wasn't his NHL enforcer career that did him in at all based on those lopsided numbers but all the JR and minor league stuff sealed his fate well before hand.

Makes you pause and wonder about the hundreds of kids out there that have been put in similar situatios but never even got a sniff of the payoff Boogaard ultimately did.

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12-08-2011, 01:40 PM
  #66
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perplexing to see todd fedoruk on twitter questioning the scientists who are bringing CTE into the light. here's a guy who has struggled with addiction and depression for the better part of a decade and has had repeated traumatic blows to the head.
I don't think it's perplexing at all, if he aknowledges all of it then he has to face the fact that he may have to deal with similar results.

Denial can be a powerful coping mechanism.

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12-08-2011, 02:10 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by mossy joe View Post
perplexing to see todd fedoruk on twitter questioning the scientists who are bringing CTE into the light. here's a guy who has struggled with addiction and depression for the better part of a decade and has had repeated traumatic blows to the head.
In the US over the last 5 years, one of the more interviewed people regarding vaccine safety and autism was Jenny McCarthy.

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12-08-2011, 02:11 PM
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Yup there is a big difference between playing hockey and ending up in a fight and sending someone out with the specific intent to fight.
Actually, my point was off the mark. They aren't sending kids out to fight for no reason. Those kids are fighting each other for the same reason the dogs do. Money.

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12-08-2011, 02:18 PM
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I don't know of any coaches that tell players to fight. I played alot of junior hockey and I never had a coach tell me to fight. In fact they tell you not to fight quite often.

There isn't a blame game its a decision made by the individuals at the time.

What needs to happen is more study on the cause and effect of Brain conditions and the education of people who play sports were this will affect them.

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12-08-2011, 02:32 PM
  #70
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Actually, my point was off the mark. They aren't sending kids out to fight for no reason. Those kids are fighting each other for the same reason the dogs do. Money.
Dogs fight for money?

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12-08-2011, 02:51 PM
  #71
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I would be curious to see what a 25 year old brain looks like. One from someone who has played tier 1 hockey there whole life. Just as a comparisson.

Thats my problem with this study is that there isnt alot of brains that have been researched

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12-08-2011, 03:30 PM
  #72
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This is pure speculation on your part and stating it as fact. He was a troubled kid growing up, I only read the first 7 pages of the story so far and it said as much. Troubled kid, not good in school, yeah that always leads to a long and prosperous life, no other potential outcome

He was picked on as a kid, who is to say that his bouts of depression didn't start way back then? You have no idea whether he would've been alive today had he not made it, for all we know if he didn't get to chase his dream he would've ended his life much earlier. I mean who has ever heard of depressed addicts outside of hockey enforcers?


Maybe you should read the entire article(its well worth it) and familiarize yourself with the obvious issues and factors that empowered this players death.

Theres more than enough for the NHL (even WHL) and its member teams to be under scrutiny in this. Good on the NY Times making it the big issue it deserves to be.

Theres shared culpability in this and enough to go around. Pharmaceutical companies(who have been class action sued regarding some of the drugs involved).
College of Physicicians and Surgeons, FDA, and any source that allowed this brutally harmful drug to be out on the street in the quantities that it is.
You probably didn't note this but at one time Boogaard had 8 different NHL sanctioned doctors prescribing him drugs. With no system of cross reference and no knowledge that the other team Dr's were prescribing. I'm sure you agree thats not responsible. Thats not acceptable.
Boogaard would walk around with ziplock bags full of the stuff. Enough to kill himself legally obtained on a regular basis.

That aside the societal issues and schoolyard bullying is prevalent in Western Canada and especially in small towns. Its a related issue, but not what killed Boogaard.


ps you know my take on MMA. Should be outlawed. Would never support this crap.


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Old
12-08-2011, 03:32 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I don't know of any coaches that tell players to fight. I played alot of junior hockey and I never had a coach tell me to fight. In fact they tell you not to fight quite often.

There isn't a blame game its a decision made by the individuals at the time.

What needs to happen is more study on the cause and effect of Brain conditions and the education of people who play sports were this will affect them.
So guys like Boogaard were recruited in Jr. to score goals? Penalty Kill? Win faceoffs?

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12-08-2011, 03:41 PM
  #74
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So guys like Boogaard were recruited in Jr. to score goals? Penalty Kill? Win faceoffs?
They were recruited to intimidate and be physical. That is part of the game of hockey. Once you start to remove elements of the game it becomes something different.

The funny thing is the more they try to "protect" players the more players seem to be getting hurt.

It is like they don't have to worry about anything on the ice anymore and are free to act as they pleast

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12-08-2011, 03:45 PM
  #75
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Actually, my point was off the mark. They aren't sending kids out to fight for no reason. Those kids are fighting each other for the same reason the dogs do. Money.
I don't know if I can agree to that. I don't see the big gain dollar wise that comes from having kids fight.

I think it's more simple than that. I think that the whole notion of having an enforcer became an arms race and a gradual and unrecognized perversion of the role happened over time which resulted in what we have seen for the last 1/2 dozen years or so.

I also think we are seeing a correction of sorts occuring right now.

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