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12-08-2011, 02:45 PM
  #76
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Interesting how this notion of "What constitutes hockey" is fairly specific to Western Canada where historically most of this bedlam hails from. Seems like most of the rest of the civilized world has an entirely different notion of how to play a great game.
To the benefit of all participants and players.

Time for the NHL and WHL to clean up its act.

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12-08-2011, 02:48 PM
  #77
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They were recruited to intimidate and be physical.
By physical you mean body contact? The inordinary amount of fighting major's combined with the significantly limited amount of ice time when compared against their peers just being a statistical anomoly of course?

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12-08-2011, 02:50 PM
  #78
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That high and mighty notion you have is pretty irritating considering that most of the civilized world likes to bomb the **** out of not so civilized world

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12-08-2011, 02:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Interesting how this notion of "What constitutes hockey" is fairly specific to Western Canada where historically most of this bedlam hails from. Seems like most of the rest of the civilized world has an entirely different notion of how to play a great game.
To the benefit of all participants and players.

Time for the NHL and WHL to clean up its act.
Why are you singling out the WHL? Why not the OHL or QMJHL? Last I checked the OHL was on par with the WHL in fights with the QMJHL not that far behind.

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12-08-2011, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
By physical you mean body contact? The inordinary amount of fighting major's combined with the significantly limited amount of ice time when compared against their peers just being a statistical anomoly of course?

The problem with your thinking is you are using Boogaard as your one example there are plenty of guys who fight and produce

In fact several of the toughest players in the WHL right now do just that

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12-08-2011, 02:53 PM
  #81
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I don't know if I can agree to that. I don't see the big gain dollar wise that comes from having kids fight.

I think it's more simple than that. I think that the whole notion of having an enforcer became an arms race and a gradual and unrecognized perversion of the role happened over time which resulted in what we have seen for the last 1/2 dozen years or so.

I also think we are seeing a correction of sorts occuring right now.
Its been much longer than that and its a historical dynamic. Western Canadian hockey has been brewing this mayhem for the better part of a century.

Whats changed is a few primary factors:

1)Guys that are so big and strong now that they can maim with a punch. Break bones, collapse faces, smash orbital bones. The sheer force delivered is much more of a factor now.

2)Prescription medications that numb pain and nerve ends to such an extent that fighting these guys is like fighting somebody jacked up high on crack. They don't feel anything. Boogaard could have his nose broken in a punch and not even stop throwing. Thats a whole different kind of bull. Theres accounts of guys putting their hands on a redhot surface and not even feeling it.

3)Of course anatomically the brain, and skull, has not had any commensurate increase in ability to withstand the brutal pulverizing of todays jacked up hockey fighters.

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12-08-2011, 02:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
The problem with your thinking is you are using Boogaard as your one example there are plenty of guys who fight and produce

In fact several of the toughest players in the WHL right now do just that
Given the topic of the thread is Boogaard, I would say it's pretty reasonable to...well you know...use Boogaard as the example.

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12-08-2011, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Why are you singling out the WHL? Why not the OHL or QMJHL? Last I checked the OHL was on par with the WHL in fights with the QMJHL not that far behind.
Historically the WHL has always been the worst and with some of the worst coaches supporting this nature of gongshow.

Per capita at least theres a surprising amount of hockey prizefighters that have historically hailed from Western Canada. Specifically WHL.

I'd have a kid going the College route 9/10.

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12-08-2011, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Given the topic of the thread is Boogaard, I would say it's pretty reasonable to...well you know...use Boogaard as the example.
Isn't that Hyperbole though? You put so much emphasis one what happened to one person without looking at the entire picture. We have what 100 years of hockey to go on.

It reeks of sensationalism to further someone's opinion

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12-08-2011, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Historically the WHL has always been the worst and with some of the worst coaches supporting this nature of gongshow.

Per capita at least theres a surprising amount of hockey prizefighters that have historically hailed from Western Canada. Specifically WHL.

I'd have a kid going the College route 9/10.
Yes you truly have no clue then

Why is the WHL a "tough league" because alot of the players come from 2 major backgrounds. Farms and mines. The majority of players had these kinds of backgrounds. Blue collar life. Get your hands dirty, if you have a problem you settle then and now.

It is not dirty hockey it is the opposite of it. It is clean,hard and honest.

It is why the WHL with a smaller population base then the OHL and QMJHL puts out as many or more players into pro hockey then its two siblings.

I don't like what you have to say about a league when it is obvious you have no idea what you are talking about in the slightest.

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12-08-2011, 03:05 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Historically the WHL has always been the worst and with some of the worst coaches supporting this nature of gongshow.

Per capita at least theres a surprising amount of hockey prizefighters that have historically hailed from Western Canada. Specifically WHL.

I'd have a kid going the College route 9/10.
OHL has been right up there with the WHL.

Also a quick look at last years top 10 most active fighters and there is 1 WHL alumni with 8 OHL alumni.

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12-08-2011, 03:08 PM
  #87
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Its been much longer than that and its a historical dynamic. Western Canadian hockey has been brewing this mayhem for the better part of a century.
The difference I am referring to is that the guys who ran shotgun in the WHL and NHL 20, 30 years ago also played hockey.

The "enforcers" where the toughest hockey players and not just the biggest strongest kids on the block.

The guys today (or of Boogaard's reign) are not only capable of inflicting much more damage but have a sole purpose to do so.

It's quite possible that as more old timers pass on, more brain damage will get documented. Of course showing those signs at 60 or 70 is quite different from guys showing them at 28.

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12-08-2011, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
OHL has been right up there with the WHL.

Also a quick look at last years top 10 most active fighters and there is 1 WHL alumni with 8 OHL alumni.
Have I not said "historically" throughout this discussion? Plus a few ex WHL enforcers are now dead due to tragedy. That kind of changes the numbers around right there.

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12-08-2011, 03:13 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Yes you truly have no clue then

Why is the WHL a "tough league" because alot of the players come from 2 major backgrounds. Farms and mines. The majority of players had these kinds of backgrounds. Blue collar life. Get your hands dirty, if you have a problem you settle then and now.

It is not dirty hockey it is the opposite of it. It is clean,hard and honest.

It is why the WHL with a smaller population base then the OHL and QMJHL puts out as many or more players into pro hockey then its two siblings.

I don't like what you have to say about a league when it is obvious you have no idea what you are talking about in the slightest.
So wait. In your universe resolving conflict primarily involves fists and dropping bombs.

amiright?

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12-08-2011, 03:15 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I don't know if I can agree to that. I don't see the big gain dollar wise that comes from having kids fight.

I think it's more simple than that. I think that the whole notion of having an enforcer became an arms race and a gradual and unrecognized perversion of the role happened over time which resulted in what we have seen for the last 1/2 dozen years or so.

I also think we are seeing a correction of sorts occuring right now.
There's a ton of issues here - probably could be a whole other forum, to be honest.

Money for the owners, money for the players that make it, PEDs, etc. The rabbit hole goes really deep.

Of course, I'm sitting here wearing an RNH shirt right now...

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12-08-2011, 03:19 PM
  #91
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So wait. In your universe resolving conflict primarily involves fists.

amiright?
What I am talking about is face to face which is how you play hockey.

Hockey is a sport that puts people face to face in a physical confrontation. Something I bet you and most people would go a great deal to avoid.

Think about that for a minute. How do you handle a physical confrontation? How do most people?

Hockey isn't like that and you can't fit into your ideal little world. Especially one that you think is "civilized" whatever the heck that means.


Now. I don't think have Boogaards of the world play hockey is a good thing. I don't think having guys who's only job it is is to fight is a good thing. But I don't want them to remove fighting from hockey either.

Here is the catch players who are playing now and who have played it agree with the way I think. Why? Because they understand why it needs to be their better then you could.

Until the day the players who play the game want it out what gives you the right to change it for them?

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12-08-2011, 03:20 PM
  #92
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Isn't that Hyperbole though? You put so much emphasis one what happened to one person without looking at the entire picture. We have what 100 years of hockey to go on.

It reeks of sensationalism to further someone's opinion
No it's not hyperbole.

It's quite reasonable to look at the type of enforcing that has been used in the last few years and rationalize that it comes with dangers not previously seen in an obvious manners.

It is also possible to point to the exploitation of minors by intentionally putting them in those dangerous situations and conclude that what mature (moreso) adults choose to do at the NHL level is not acceptable at the jr level. Particularily when it comes to the general philosophy of the enforcer role between the leagues.

As it pertain's to Boogaard specifically, you have to see a correlation between his hockey career and his death. Even moreso if you read the articles in question and still insisted on arguing otherwise.


Last edited by Bryanbryoil: 12-09-2011 at 03:07 AM. Reason: Keep it clean
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12-08-2011, 03:24 PM
  #93
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Have I not said "historically" throughout this discussion? Plus a few ex WHL enforcers are now dead due to tragedy. That kind of changes the numbers around right there.
What do you mean historically? Should I go back to the 70's? Because clearly the WHL isn't dominated the NHL it prize fighters.

01-02

Q-4
W-4
Russia- 1
H-East - 1

03-04
ECHL -1
OHL -6
WHL -1
QMJHL -1
WCHL -1

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12-08-2011, 03:28 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
No it's not hyperbole.

It's quite reasonable to look at the type of enforcing that has been used in the last few years and rationalize that it comes with dangers not previously seen in an obvious manners.

It is also possible to point to the exploitation of minors by intentionally putting them in those dangerous situations and conclude that what mature (moreso) adults choose to do at the NHL level is not acceptable at the jr level. Particularily when it comes to the general philosophy of the enforcer role between the leagues.

As it pertain's to Boogaard specifically, you have to see a correlation between his hockey career and his death. Even moreso if you read the articles in question and still insisted on arguing otherwise.
I think it is sensationalism at its best. It furthers people's agenda. We have so much data and players to work with over the years and I am guessing the data doesn't quite fit what the agenda they are pushing so they don't bother using it.

Look at replacement. He is ready to condemn all of Western Canada and the WHL without even taking a serious look at it. Why? Because he has an agenda and to hell with the data and facts


Last edited by Bryanbryoil: 12-09-2011 at 03:07 AM. Reason: Edited quoted post
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12-08-2011, 03:31 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
What do you mean historically? Should I go back to the 70's? Because clearly the WHL isn't dominated the NHL it prize fighters.

01-02

Q-4
W-4
Russia- 1
H-East - 1

03-04
ECHL -1
OHL -6
WHL -1
QMJHL -1
WCHL -1
I've stated specifically for the "better part of a century" What I mean by that is starting way back in pro hockeys infancy.

Tough slugging players have perennially hailed from these parts.

I never said dominated. But per capita theres a disproportionate amount of goons that always play in the WHL. A lot of them being such lousy hockey players you don't even see them advancing.

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12-08-2011, 03:31 PM
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1. George Parros - 82
2. Ian Laperriere - 66
3. Colton Orr - 63
4. Eric Godard - 57
5-6. Jody Shelley - 55
5-6. Zach Stortini* - 55
7. Jared Boll** - 51
8. Krys Barch* - 49
9-10. Cam Janssen - 48
9-10. Andrew Peters - 48

Here's a list from 2009 of post lockout most active prize fighters. How many WHL guys?

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12-08-2011, 03:33 PM
  #97
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So wait. In your universe resolving conflict primarily involves fists and dropping bombs.

amiright?
Absolutely , cmon now I have been reading both of your comments and both of you have made some good points. It really is amazing how worked up some of you guys are getting over one article when clearly there are many many factors at play here . As well personal biases when factored into an argument are not a place for people to get objective facts. I do however enjoy the passion displayed by both sides in this argument. In my own honest biased opinion, fighting and hitting are a part of this game, the participants know it and most are well aware of the risks, they don't need a nanny quasi panel holding their hand every step of the way. Do people fall through the cracks, absolutely and there should be discussions to prevent this from happening however an absolute overhaul is not necessary and will do nothing to prevent head injuries. I don't like the staged fights either however I hate the guys who intentionally use a piece of their equipment, elbow pads, as a weapon or those that intentionally stick out a knee knowing full well it could be career threatening, the hit on David Booth. Anyways, I will say I am a proud Oilers fan, to me we have a very passionate fan base which for the most part are respectful.

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12-08-2011, 03:33 PM
  #98
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Georgie Parros at the top coming out of Yale. Good thing Replacement is sending his kid to College he won't have to fight to get to the NHL for sure

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12-08-2011, 03:36 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
What I am talking about is face to face which is how you play hockey.

Hockey is a sport that puts people face to face in a physical confrontation. Something I bet you and most people would go a great deal to avoid.

Think about that for a minute. How do you handle a physical confrontation? How do most people?

Hockey isn't like that and you can't fit into your ideal little world. Especially one that you think is "civilized" whatever the heck that means.


Now. I don't think have Boogaards of the world play hockey is a good thing. I don't think having guys who's only job it is is to fight is a good thing. But I don't want them to remove fighting from hockey either.

Here is the catch players who are playing now and who have played it agree with the way I think. Why? Because they understand why it needs to be their better then you could.

Until the day the players who play the game want it out what gives you the right to change it for them?
Agreed and specifically that change needs to come from the people involved in all aspects of the game, coaches players etc.

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12-08-2011, 03:42 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I think it is sensationalism at its best. It furthers people's agenda. We have so much data and players to work with over the years and I am guessing the data doesn't quite fit what the agenda they are pushing so they don't bother using it.

Look at replacement. He is ready to condemn all of Western Canada and the WHL without even taking a serious look at it. Why? Because he has an agenda and to hell with the data and facts
The way the you seem to be skirting the points being brought up I doubt you can pin point the "they" or the "agenda".

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