Moreau and Hunter are no longer NHL caliber players on any decent team. Maybe healthy scratches but they should not be receiving the icetime they are. Two of the worst teams in the league, NYI and Columbus did not want them. So why are we surprised when they cant do anything out there? Blame can be distributed however you want between DL for signing them, Murray for playing them, or us for thinking they are still NHL players on a great team. I realize Lewis and Richardson don't have hands of gold, but IMO they are still better options, and that falls on Murray.
Again, disagree,
First, there are many reasons why CBS and NYI didn't sign them, just as there as many reasons why Moreau or Hunter didn't want to sign there, that's just a logical fallacy.
They must suck because another team didn't want them, you don't know that...
First, there are many reasons why CBS and NYI didn't sign them, just as there as many reasons why Moreau or Hunter didn't want to sign there, that's just a logical fallacy.
They must suck because another team didn't want them, you don't know that...
Hunter has a bit of an excuse because he was coming off knee surgery, but Moreau wasn't signed until the middle to end of August and he signed for near the league minimum. I'd say there wasn't much demand for Ethan Moreau out there...
2. Shove Penner down our throats until it's obvious it isn't working. I must be the only guy in the arena who still thinks Penner can work ono this team...
3. Fire Murray if this team is .500 or below on 1-1-12.
great post BK - very good points.
I agree that Penner SHOULD be doing more and that some kind of deadline needs to be set for the TeMu regime.
First, there are many reasons why CBS and NYI didn't sign them, just as there as many reasons why Moreau or Hunter didn't want to sign there, that's just a logical fallacy.
They must suck because another team didn't want them, you don't know that...
Yeah, but we pick up these guys, other teams pick up our Moulsen...
Which is why I said before, the system itself is not the problem, it works well then executed..
Pretty much any system will work well when executed properly
... but if the players can't/don't/won't execute it properly, changes and adjustments have to be made - or you have to be satisfied with marginal mediocrity. In the end, it really doesn't matter WHY it isn't working so much as making the changes or modifications to create success.
I agree that Penner SHOULD be doing more and that some kind of deadline needs to be set for the TeMu regime.
Penner has played incredibly well since returning from the IR. If he can be consistent with that type of effort and force, he will have a successful last two-thirds of the season.
I haven't posted much--if at all--this season due to being very busy and generally not in the mood to discuss this train-wreck of a season but last night's "performance" forces me to chime in.
First off, I'm not so quick to say this team is a defensive powerhouse regardless of the stats. Throw this year's version of Quick on one of those Crawford teams and I guarantee that the defense improves by leaps and bounds. This team makes awful turnovers in their zone multiple times a game but has been bailed out by Quick or by a bad shot, ala Getzlaf last night after Stoll passed it right to him. Voynov passed it directly to Selanne in the zone during the 3rd last night and the first goal has already been discussed. Doughty makes terrible reads every game and seems to take a terrible penalty--or should be called for one or two--every game. With Mitchell out there, it's much better obviously but this D corp can not score under this system.
When the Kings put up over 100 points 2 seasons ago, they got the huge year out of Doughty. The Kings scored goals that year from the blueline. Go back to rant threads from last season when many of us were complaining about the system because it is predicated on getting shots from the point and hoping for a deflection. Well, every other team figured this out last year and it just keeps getting worse. When your D pairings have one guy who can shoot and one guy who can't, the opposing team's defense allows the pass back to Scuderi, Mitchell or Greene while clogging up the middle of the zone. It's pretty embarassing to watch and has been for longer than just this season.
The system works when team's don't know how to stop it. Everyone knows what to do now to stop it, hence the downward trend in both goals and points in the standings. There is a direct corelation between the two so those that want to argue that 2-1 games are just fine need to give their head a shake.
Terry is a one-trick pony and the pony has been beaten into the ground. You can't say we need an entirely new system because a new coach is going to preach many of the same things that Murray does; however, Terry needs to tweak his system because it is not fooling anyone. The forwards need to cycle with the idea of taking it hard to the net as opposed to cycling until two guys can line up in front of the goalie and then hope that Scuderi's shot has enough steam to not be stopped completely by the stick blade of an opposing team's forward. This begs the question: Does this team have the forwards to do this?
I think that this team has the talent up front, when healthy, to do this but the Bottom-6 are a travesty. Stoll is showing that he can only be effective if he is playing with talent, as has Clifford. This team went from a 3rd line with a 35-goal scorer and two very good puck posession guys, down to a rookie and two good puck posession guys down to CBJ and NYI trash and a shootout specialist. Clifford is lost out there since he isn't playing with the caliber of player he was with before. Trent Hunter and Ethan Moreau have no place on a Cup-contender at this stage of their respective careers which is why it makes perfect sense that they are on the Kings.
The loss of Simmonds has really been felt. This team lacks emotion and he was a guy who would bring it and get the team going when needed. I'm sure Clifford would feed off of him, same with Doughty. This is a group of guys who used to get fired up and play chippy; now they just go through the motions. Richards can bring it but you don't want your star player being the guy who has to go out and start a fight or put a bullseye on his back every night. It also wouldn't hurt if Brown would start hitting again. When he is hitting, the other team is preoccupied with retaliating so he draws penalties while the other team misses assignments etc... because they are focusing on Brown.
Doughty needs to be better on the power play but none of the skilled D can do jack 5-on-5 due to the system. The only reason Voynov is scoring is because he doesn't have the respect of the league because he is new. He will be covered like Johnson and Doughty soon enough. My real beef with Doughty is that he is a total and complete ***** on the ice. Takes bad penalties, doesn't know why he gets called for them and whines more than Rasheed Wallace. Everyone said he wouldn't be Phaneuf 2.0 because his hockey IQ was so off the charts: he's regressed in this regard since he went home to London in the Summer of 2010 and bought into his own hype. He does not have the mindset of someone you want to hand the keys to the franchise over to, or $7MM for that matter. He's still very young so hopefully he matures but it is such a cause for concern at this point.
Boring. This team is beyond boring. If I wasn't a Kings fan, I wouldn't watch a game. Just like I never watched a CBJ game when I had Center Ice, I wouldn't dream of watching these clowns. As a season seat holder, this is the most disapointing season since Sutton effectively ended Dave Taylor's reign as GM by kneeing Jason Allison. Even when this team was total trash, I never felt bad about driving from Fountain Valley to see every game. This team makes me question if I want to even go to the game because I know I will not be entertained. For someone who has missed maybe 4 home games in 10 years prior to this season, that is a pretty telling statement.
So where do we go from here? If not Jonestown for refreshing Kool-Aid, this is where we go:
1. DL needs to send Hunter to Manchester and inject a Simmonds-type influence into the Bottom-6. You can't win a Cup with a 3rd and 4th line like the Kings currently have. Also, you aren't winning a Cup when a guy on a pro tryout contract and a stupid goatee is on your 2nd PP unit. Easy solution is calling up Jordan Nolan. Reward your guys in the minors who are playing the right way and sit the trash that is not playing the right way in the NHL. Accountability. If King can get a call-up for the 1st line, Nolan can get a call-up to bring some much needed energy to the Bottom-6. If not, then DL needs to be looking at a trade.
2. Shove Penner down our throats until it's obvious it isn't working. I must be the only guy in the arena who still thinks Penner can work ono this team...I know I was eating it up when he was our best forward against Montreal. The last two games are what Penner should bring and can bring. He's as in shape as he is going to get but it's been more of a mental thing this season. If he breaks out of his fog, this team gets much, much better.
3. Fire Murray if this team is .500 or below on 1-1-12. That record is completely unacceptable and while it isn't all Terry's fault, this team isn't going to get blown up and Deano isn't going to be axed first so there you go. This team seems to play like they've tuned him out, which isn't surprising since all of his boys never get benched. I'd like to see more pride out of the guys on the ice but this is still a job. You and I may not make $7MM a year but we still hate going to work if it's no fun and we don't like our boss. I truly believe his time is over but it's going to take a losing streak for him to get axed.
This team is a complete embarassment right now. The "core" has never been able to raise their level of play to the expectations levied upon them: Couldn't do it last year and are failing miserably this year. See if a new coach can change that; if not, then DL really needs to look in the mirror and realize this isn't the team he thought he was building.
I agree on all three of your points.
Frankly one of Moreau or Hunter should be waived (I'd rather see Moreau waived personally) and Nolan should be brought up. I'd even be ok with Cliche. kid has played well and he can't be worse than Moreau/Hunter/etc. One of Lewis or Richardson needs to be dealt/waived as well.
Btw, you're not alone in the arena. I think penner can contribute to this team as well. I have all along, though I was, and still am, extremely critical of the trade. The guys biggest issue is work ethic. He actually got that this year, somewhat, so i think he'll come around.
And I also agree, the Kings are immeasurably boring. Put you in a coffin boring. I can't remember when the Kings last had an exciting rush up the ice. Doughty should look like Scott Neidermayer out there. When was the last time you seen any Kings defenseman do a stretch pass from deep in our zone to a streaking forward? When have the Kings picked up a puck in their zone and transitioned with speed up ice?
The Kings sit back in theeir zone and basically wait for the other team to get ready. This isn't a game of red rover, it's frickin' hockey. The 80's Oilers had more exciting plays in one pre-season warm-up than the Kings have had all year. I know I won't be wasting my money on the highlight video from this season. It'll be 93.4% Jonathon Quick.
First, there are many reasons why CBS and NYI didn't sign them, just as there as many reasons why Moreau or Hunter didn't want to sign there, that's just a logical fallacy.
They must suck because another team didn't want them, you don't know that...
So you think Moreau and Hunter (at this stage of their careers) are valuable, contributing bottom-six players on a cup contending team?
You seem to dance on both sides of this fence. When the Kings release or don't sign a player, the story always seem to be "no loss - he sucked anyway"
Not really, I don't particularly care for Hunter or Moreau, I recognized them for what they are, depth players who were signed to bring in a veteran prescence for Clifford, Lewis, Richardson and Westgarth.
They are playing fine despite what everyone is *****ing about, Moreau does have absolutely idiotic brain farts that have cost the team and he should have sat, but it is what it is.
When was the last time you seen any Kings defenseman do a stretch pass from deep in our zone to a streaking forward?
Last night? When whomever hit Stoll all the way up at the Ducks' blue line with a beautiful tape to tape laser? That split the defenders? Sending Stoll in on all alone Hiller? With Getzlaf flailing at him from half a stride back?
No finish, but when the plays are there, they make them.
Absolutely, the problem is, you want to measure their contributions on the stat sheet.
That certainly is one way to measure it. By what measure are they contributing in your eyes? I'm all for doing positive things that don't show up on the scoresheet; I'd love to hear how else they are contributing on the ice.
That just isn't true. If you took the Kings player's average goals per 82 games (including this season's dismal performance, it would be even higher if you ignored this season), you would come up with 254 goals, that is 3.10 goals per game for being average. The Kings are at 2.26 per game, that is failure of coaching/system. You don't have 15+ guys experience a down year at the same time, most aren't past their prime scoring years. Luck doesn't account for that. 2 or 3 guys? Sure, but then 2 or 3 guys would probably be above average to balance it out. 15 or so guys below average and maybe 2 above average (Richards & Johnson)? You could throw in Voynov's goals for Martinez and be above average too.
Even if you throw out Hunter's 17 goal average, it is still 2.89 goals per game for just being average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan
The only game I can say it's be executed properly all game long was the one against the Blues. virtually every other game, the Kings have taken at least a whole period off, IIRC. Sometimes more. The fact we are deadlast in offense should show you we aren't executing properly nearly enough.
We won more in the past two years under the same coach and the same system at this point in the season than we are this year, and we have more talent now than we've had in several years. Explain that.
We might not have the best top 6 in the world, but it's definately at the very least middle of the pack. We do have a top 5 defense, top 5 goaltending tandem, and a 1-2 punch down the middle that is the envy of about 90% of the league. A group of average winger and an under achieving bottom six might drag the team down, but not to the point it is deadlast in offense.
I'm not against a coach/system change if it's the right change. Although I don't believe our scoring problems are Murray's fault. We all know our top six wingers are lacking, every one of them has some fault that hinders them and the team. Richards and Kopi are doing just fine and if they had wingers like Parise,Burrows,Clutterbuck the top six would be fine.
That certainly is one way to measure it. By what measure are they contributing in your eyes? I'm all for doing positive things that don't show up on the scoresheet; I'd love to hear how else they are contributing on the ice.
The games I have watched, Hunter has been just fine, he makes the smart plays, moves the puck, crowds the net,
Everyone was *****ing about how he was on the PP, he was one of the few Kings that would STAND in FRONT of the net and take the abuse.
Moreau, finishes his hits, gets in the corner, drives the net occasionally, should be doing that more,
Neither are a hindrance in the defensive zone,
What do you expect out of your 3rd/4th liners? Just curious..
No they're pretty consistent; the team can't score. You just can't accept the fact that teams know how to easily defend the Kings.
If you think the Kings execute their system consistently, I don't know what to tell you, you either have no idea what their system is, or you don't watch the games.
I haven't posted much--if at all--this season due to being very busy and generally not in the mood to discuss this train-wreck of a season but last night's "performance" forces me to chime in.
First off, I'm not so quick to say this team is a defensive powerhouse regardless of the stats. Throw this year's version of Quick on one of those Crawford teams and I guarantee that the defense improves by leaps and bounds. This team makes awful turnovers in their zone multiple times a game but has been bailed out by Quick or by a bad shot, ala Getzlaf last night after Stoll passed it right to him. Voynov passed it directly to Selanne in the zone during the 3rd last night and the first goal has already been discussed. Doughty makes terrible reads every game and seems to take a terrible penalty--or should be called for one or two--every game. With Mitchell out there, it's much better obviously but this D corp can not score under this system.
When the Kings put up over 100 points 2 seasons ago, they got the huge year out of Doughty. The Kings scored goals that year from the blueline. Go back to rant threads from last season when many of us were complaining about the system because it is predicated on getting shots from the point and hoping for a deflection. Well, every other team figured this out last year and it just keeps getting worse. When your D pairings have one guy who can shoot and one guy who can't, the opposing team's defense allows the pass back to Scuderi, Mitchell or Greene while clogging up the middle of the zone. It's pretty embarassing to watch and has been for longer than just this season.
The system works when team's don't know how to stop it. Everyone knows what to do now to stop it, hence the downward trend in both goals and points in the standings. There is a direct corelation between the two so those that want to argue that 2-1 games are just fine need to give their head a shake.
Terry is a one-trick pony and the pony has been beaten into the ground. You can't say we need an entirely new system because a new coach is going to preach many of the same things that Murray does; however, Terry needs to tweak his system because it is not fooling anyone. The forwards need to cycle with the idea of taking it hard to the net as opposed to cycling until two guys can line up in front of the goalie and then hope that Scuderi's shot has enough steam to not be stopped completely by the stick blade of an opposing team's forward. This begs the question: Does this team have the forwards to do this?
I think that this team has the talent up front, when healthy, to do this but the Bottom-6 are a travesty. Stoll is showing that he can only be effective if he is playing with talent, as has Clifford. This team went from a 3rd line with a 35-goal scorer and two very good puck posession guys, down to a rookie and two good puck posession guys down to CBJ and NYI trash and a shootout specialist. Clifford is lost out there since he isn't playing with the caliber of player he was with before. Trent Hunter and Ethan Moreau have no place on a Cup-contender at this stage of their respective careers which is why it makes perfect sense that they are on the Kings.
The loss of Simmonds has really been felt. This team lacks emotion and he was a guy who would bring it and get the team going when needed. I'm sure Clifford would feed off of him, same with Doughty. This is a group of guys who used to get fired up and play chippy; now they just go through the motions. Richards can bring it but you don't want your star player being the guy who has to go out and start a fight or put a bullseye on his back every night. It also wouldn't hurt if Brown would start hitting again. When he is hitting, the other team is preoccupied with retaliating so he draws penalties while the other team misses assignments etc... because they are focusing on Brown.
Doughty needs to be better on the power play but none of the skilled D can do jack 5-on-5 due to the system. The only reason Voynov is scoring is because he doesn't have the respect of the league because he is new. He will be covered like Johnson and Doughty soon enough. My real beef with Doughty is that he is a total and complete ***** on the ice. Takes bad penalties, doesn't know why he gets called for them and whines more than Rasheed Wallace. Everyone said he wouldn't be Phaneuf 2.0 because his hockey IQ was so off the charts: he's regressed in this regard since he went home to London in the Summer of 2010 and bought into his own hype. He does not have the mindset of someone you want to hand the keys to the franchise over to, or $7MM for that matter. He's still very young so hopefully he matures but it is such a cause for concern at this point.
Boring. This team is beyond boring. If I wasn't a Kings fan, I wouldn't watch a game. Just like I never watched a CBJ game when I had Center Ice, I wouldn't dream of watching these clowns. As a season seat holder, this is the most disapointing season since Sutton effectively ended Dave Taylor's reign as GM by kneeing Jason Allison. Even when this team was total trash, I never felt bad about driving from Fountain Valley to see every game. This team makes me question if I want to even go to the game because I know I will not be entertained. For someone who has missed maybe 4 home games in 10 years prior to this season, that is a pretty telling statement.
So where do we go from here? If not Jonestown for refreshing Kool-Aid, this is where we go:
1. DL needs to send Hunter to Manchester and inject a Simmonds-type influence into the Bottom-6. You can't win a Cup with a 3rd and 4th line like the Kings currently have. Also, you aren't winning a Cup when a guy on a pro tryout contract and a stupid goatee is on your 2nd PP unit. Easy solution is calling up Jordan Nolan. Reward your guys in the minors who are playing the right way and sit the trash that is not playing the right way in the NHL. Accountability. If King can get a call-up for the 1st line, Nolan can get a call-up to bring some much needed energy to the Bottom-6. If not, then DL needs to be looking at a trade.
2. Shove Penner down our throats until it's obvious it isn't working. I must be the only guy in the arena who still thinks Penner can work ono this team...I know I was eating it up when he was our best forward against Montreal. The last two games are what Penner should bring and can bring. He's as in shape as he is going to get but it's been more of a mental thing this season. If he breaks out of his fog, this team gets much, much better.
3. Fire Murray if this team is .500 or below on 1-1-12. That record is completely unacceptable and while it isn't all Terry's fault, this team isn't going to get blown up and Deano isn't going to be axed first so there you go. This team seems to play like they've tuned him out, which isn't surprising since all of his boys never get benched. I'd like to see more pride out of the guys on the ice but this is still a job. You and I may not make $7MM a year but we still hate going to work if it's no fun and we don't like our boss. I truly believe his time is over but it's going to take a losing streak for him to get axed.
This team is a complete embarassment right now. The "core" has never been able to raise their level of play to the expectations levied upon them: Couldn't do it last year and are failing miserably this year. See if a new coach can change that; if not, then DL really needs to look in the mirror and realize this isn't the team he thought he was building.
Very well said,I know I feel this way and I have to believe it is one of the reasons why many of the long time posters are MIA this year, which was billed as our year and has turned some how into a frustrating year long bore fest, the shame of it is that we are selling out most every game and the new fans that are coming in must be thinking what the hell, this is the exciting passion filled sport we have told them about.
If you think the Kings execute their system consistently, I don't know what to tell you, you either have no idea what their system is, or you don't watch the games.
He watches the games like the rest of us. They are asked to play along the boards yet the Kings are suppose to have talented players, not dump and chase players. They get man handled along the boards. With Zues, Frolov, Simmonds no longer on the team they no longer have those players who excel along the boards. TM is asking guys like Williams, Gagne, Penner to cycle pucks when it's not their style.
The Kings do try and execute their system, however most of the time it's failing cause they are outsized and out muscled along the boards resulting in very little cycling in the offensive zone to create scoring chances that this very system requires. This is the very reason why the team sucks so bad at 5 on 5 but are decent on the power play.
Call it what you want, but it's pretty damn obvious the "system" is wrong for this team. Whether you want to blame DL for the personnel, or TM for not adapting to his players, it's simply NOT going to work with the current roster.
I can only think of maybe 2-3 wins this year where the Kings outright won the game, and didn't rely on Quick bailing them out or watching Kopi/Richards do it themselves.
He watches the games like the rest of us. They are asked to play along the boards yet the Kings are suppose to have talented players, not dump and chase players. They get man handled along the boards. With Zues, Frolov, Simmonds no longer on the team they no longer have those players who excel along the boards. TM is asking guys like Williams, Gagne, Penner to cycle pucks when it's not their style.
The Kings do try and execute their system, however most of the time it's failing cause they are outsized and out muscled along the boards resulting in very little cycling in the offensive zone to create scoring chances that this very system requires. This is the very reason why the team sucks so bad at 5 on 5 but are decent on the power play.
Call it what you want, but it's pretty damn obvious the "system" is wrong for this team. Whether you want to blame DL for the personnel, or TM for not adapting to his players, it's simply NOT going to work with the current roster.
I can only think of maybe 2-3 wins this year where the Kings outright won the game, and didn't rely on Quick bailing them out or watching Kopi/Richards do it themselves.
Very possible, but again, that is on the players,
If Penner is being outsized and outmuscled on the boards, how is that on the coach? That is a one on one battle that ALL NHL players go through, that's simply a player issue.
I could understand Lotkionov being outsized outmuscled, but Penner? That's a player issue.
Last night? When whomever hit Stoll all the way up at the Ducks' blue line with a beautiful tape to tape laser? That split the defenders? Sending Stoll in on all alone Hiller? With Getzlaf flailing at him from half a stride back?
No finish, but when the plays are there, they make them.
Problem is they are there maybe twice in a 60 minute game apparently.
If Penner is being outsized and outmuscled on the boards, how is that on the coach? That is a one on one battle that ALL NHL players go through, that's simply a player issue.
I could understand Lotkionov being outsized outmuscled, but Penner? That's a player issue.
OR is it not adjusting the coaching style to fit the personnel?
Trying to jam a square peg through a round hole?
TM is stubborn...and if Williams isn't a grind line style player...why try to make him?
It's not a player issue if your coach is making you play in a system that doesn't suit your style.
Williams has been in the league, and been a successful player in this league for several years...Penner as well..Ponikarovsky...
there is give and take...you can't make players play with a style they aren't comfrotable with...and players can't expect to play the game they want 100% of the time. But none the less...Terry Murray is a very very stubborn man...we have all seen that over his tenure...
Do you think he would be one to adjust HIS system just so Justin Williams doesn't have to grind it out along the boards? I don't think so...he'll say tough....or if he doesn't do it...he'll bench em, like he has in the past. Like he has done with Penner, and Parse, and Poni, and Frolov and Loktionov and all other players who don't want to play his dump and grind style.
