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Phoenix XLI: Bongo Fury

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Old
12-07-2011, 10:25 PM
  #51
CHRDANHUTCH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
What on earth are you talking about? Ottawa was not involved at all. This is strictly city and provincial. No federal approval required.

If it's that or PKP not getting an NHL team to provide content for his new sports channel, you better believe he'll pay $5 million for temporary repairs.

One reason that ASG ran the Thrashers out of town was pecisely because they figured they could net more profit from 25 concert/wrestling/MMA/tractor-pull/etc events than from 45 hockey games. According to Pollstar Magazine
Ottawa is just like any other arena proposal, it doesn't mean squat if it's not approved Provincialy and Federally, remember HOW MANY TIMES QUEBEC threatened to form its own country over the years bc it never agreed w/ the politics..... keep in mind, too, knorthern, HOW MANY Hockey fans couldn't vote in Nassau County that were just tht, hockey fans, when Nassau rejected the arena for the Islanders...... Pittsburgh didn't get CONSOL overnight, and if they hadn't, we'd be adding them to the list that began w/ Quebec, Winnipeg, Atlanta, not once, but twice, Hartford..... IN Case you forgot, knorthern, ASG had to buy the Thrashers when they bought into Atlanta once Time Warner backed out of ownership to focus on other business....

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Old
12-07-2011, 10:27 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
That was IEH's problem too, no cash money.
Sure enough, and they wanted the COG to GUARANTEE 'X' Dollars on the CFD in order to cover their debt servicing on loans they hoped to acquire from private investors and apparently/reputedly from a bank. Glendale effectively the co-signer. Pretty crazy move huh?...

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Old
12-07-2011, 10:36 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
Ottawa is just like any other arena proposal, it doesn't mean squat if it's not approved Provincialy and Federally, remember HOW MANY TIMES QUEBEC threatened to form its own country over the years bc it never agreed w/ the politics..... keep in mind, too, knorthern, HOW MANY Hockey fans couldn't vote in Nassau County that were just tht, hockey fans, when Nassau rejected the arena for the Islanders...... Pittsburgh didn't get CONSOL overnight, and if they hadn't, we'd be adding them to the list that began w/ Quebec, Winnipeg, Atlanta, not once, but twice, Hartford..... IN Case you forgot, knorthern, ASG had to buy the Thrashers when they bought into Atlanta once Time Warner backed out of ownership to focus on other business....
Hunh??


So tell me again how Ottawa (a city) is just like any other arena proposal (a piece of paper or even an idea), how this is related to Canadian politics, how this is related to what happens in another country; another city; another arena's issues, where this entire train of thought came from, when knorthern simply corrected you on something you incorrectly stated?

I don't follow

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12-07-2011, 10:46 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roccerfeller View Post
Hunh??


So tell me again how Ottawa (a city) is just like any other arena proposal (a piece of paper or even an idea), how this is related to Canadian politics, how this is related to what happens in another country; another city; another arena's issues, where this entire train of thought came from, when knorthern simply corrected you on something you incorrectly stated?

I don't follow
put it this way, WHY waste $ Retrofitting the current Colisee, if YOU ALREADY been approved to build a BRAND New one.

Quebec fans are jumping the gun and reading into something that likely won't happen and saying a 60 year arena is a temporary solution is a colossal failure if you intend to replace it anyway, where's their plan B, if the Coyotes a) stay in Glendale, or b) land in another market not named Quebec City, they couldn't even make a go of it the way TNSE Did w/ Manitoba even though it was a Canadien affiliate, and they laugh at any notion of the existing franchise tht's beaten back challenges from the pro league before

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12-07-2011, 11:13 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
put it this way, WHY waste $ Retrofitting the current Colisee, if YOU ALREADY been approved to build a BRAND New one.

Quebec fans are jumping the gun and reading into something that likely won't happen and saying a 60 year arena is a temporary solution is a colossal failure if you intend to replace it anyway, where's their plan B, if the Coyotes a) stay in Glendale, or b) land in another market not named Quebec City, they couldn't even make a go of it the way TNSE Did w/ Manitoba even though it was a Canadien affiliate, and they laugh at any notion of the existing franchise tht's beaten back challenges from the pro league before
I think you have a valid point (well, what I think you're trying to say anyway), but I don't think that's the only way to look at the situation there

If the Coyotes move at the end of this season to Quebec City, they would only pay 3 seasons in the old arena there, while the new one is being built (its starting construction next year).

Current renovations are pegged at ~$5 million dollars. A hypothetical financial situation was already broken down by f/k/a GHOST (in the earlier thread or the Quebec City thread, I forget which one specifically).

Those current renovations, assuming it would be a one-time renovation, is peanut change for Quebecor. They could simply charge higher ticket prices alone; you'd be guaranteed a sell out arena; and already the team would be making more money than Phoenix currently nets.

If you keep connecting the train of thoughts and the dots, you can see why Quebec fans are seemingly "jumping the gun"

I personally do not think they are. I think it is completely OK to assume they can support a relocated team while the new arena is being built for 3 seasons. Only 3 seasons. Then new building time.

The payoff will come eventually, PKP & Quebecor are absolutely loaded, and the level of fan support would be similar to what Winnipeg is currently experiencing. They would not pass up the chance to own a franchise just because the building is 3 years away from opening.

I think too much is made of this 60 year old building. Yes, its old, and yes the city needs a new arena if it wants a permanent NHL team (which WILL be built next year..) but I don't think "jumping the gun" is entirely true.

To me its more like a real possibility.

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Old
12-07-2011, 11:22 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by davemac1313 View Post
K...someone translate this for me
HUTCH just has a funny way of making his points sometimes. In essence what he's saying is;

A) Why spend money renovating the Colisee' when theres the possibility the Coyotes either remain in Glendale or if relo'd could wing up in any other number of markets?.

B) They dont have an AHL franchise with all of the incumbent infrastructure & personnel to fall back on if they do go ahead with the expenditures renovating the Colisee' while simultaneously building a new arena. No plan 'B'.

C) Quebec lost its team & has not been "invited back" despite overtures during the intervening years.

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Old
12-07-2011, 11:23 PM
  #57
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If QC gets a chance at the Coyotes I am sure they will find a way to make it work.

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12-07-2011, 11:59 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
Never over estimate the competance of the NHL or the CoG. There also could be other factors involved that include due dilgence of an ownership "group", floating parts such as purchasing Westgate assets, arranging for a CFD to be in place, Bettman's likely preference for JR as an owner, but perhaps a better offer from the Jamison group, terms of the sale by the NHL (not so sure I agree the price is fixed at any point, but more a not less than number in the mind of the NHL), what to do with the $60 million from TSNE, making some commitment to the new owners about the time table for expansion so they can cash in on expansion money for a few years while they serve out their term in Arizona... All kinds of things to speculate. I was just stating my personal belief that it will come down again to the 11th hour, which I do not believe is until sometime in February or March. QC could probably do a Winnipeg for a few years and sell out a small building until their nice new arena is built.

As just an aside, I think the NHL wants to keep the Coyotes in Arizona so they can cash in on expansion ala the 1990's and infuse some cash in the coffers of struggling franchises. They also probably don't want to leave Glendale becasue that would hurt any efforts to keep a team on the Island, or some other new building in NYC.
I think that there could be another glitch that crept into potential deals. I have speculated that any deal in Glendale will come with an option to relocate in some years if things don't work out. That's all well and good, until the new ownership groups started discussing potential targets for relocation. Perhaps that is when the NHL got out the cold bucket of water and informed them that they could relocate to KC, not S. Ontario or QC. All of a sudden the safety net starts looking a bit ragged and that trapeze is still mighty high.

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Old
12-08-2011, 12:08 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Why would it take until late in the season if there is a bona fide ownership group and a deal that can be made? That is what puzzles me. Surely all of the parties know: 1) the purchase price, 2) what levels of subsidy Glendale might be able to manage, 3) the financial commitments that would be required by potential owners.

There is no good reason that I can think of to delay consummating and announcing a deal for a local sale. There is absolutely no good reason to announce failure to make a local sale and the need to relocate until as late in the season as possible.
They are waiting for their PowerBall and/or Mega Millions lottery numbers to hit and win the big prize.


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Last edited by Fugu: 12-08-2011 at 11:11 AM. Reason: qdp
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Old
12-08-2011, 12:11 AM
  #60
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I go on vacation for two weeks starting Monday so I expect this whole thing to be resolved by the time I return....

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Old
12-08-2011, 01:39 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
I go on vacation for two weeks starting Monday so I expect this whole thing to be resolved by the time I return....
If I were a betting man, I'd wager against that.

Here's my honest prediction....

This is going to drag on to the end of the season, or very near it at the very least. The NHL still wants butts in the seats in Glendale, and they know that if they make it public that they can't get the job done in the desert, they'll be stuck with a freaking cavern for the final games of the year.

As such, they'll make talk about how they're close to an agreement with one or two parties for the next couple months, and might even put legitimate negotiations in with a potential party and the Glendale city council, but when push comes to shove.... unfortunately nothing will come out of it for Yotes fans. There are just too many fiscal barriers preventing an ownership group from buying the team and keeping them in Arizona, not the least of which is Goldwater.

Leaks about this or that, positive about them staying and negative about them not, will pop up from time to time. Excitement will rise, and wane in Quebec City, and hopes will be dashed and invariably saved with the faintest glimmer of a chance of the team staying in Glendale for at least another season for Yotes fans. But near the end of the season, if they get eliminated early, shortly after the season ends if they fail to make the posteason, or almost immediately after the Yotes are knocked out if they do make the postseason, the announcement will be made that the NHL can't find an interested buyer to keep them local and will be opening the process to outside bidders.

Then they'll feign that this whole thing is a rush and quickly get a deal done with the Quebecor folks (who they probably already have at least a partial understanding with) to move them to Quebec City for the 2012-13 season to play in the old Colisee for a couple years while their new home is constructed. And, as the coup de grace, they'll probably act like there's not enough time to redo schedules again like last year, and force Quebec City to play in the new Pacific/Western Conference next season for ****s and giggles.

Sorry Yotes fans.... not seeing a saving grace for you guys.

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Old
12-08-2011, 02:21 AM
  #62
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“There is flexibility in this format,” Bettman acknowledged to reporters in Pebble Beach Monday. “Which is perhaps one of the reasons people were comfortable. We’re not planning on any moves, we don’t want any moves, but if we find ourselves confronted with one, the way it’s set up gives us a little more flexibility.
I know this quote is a few days old now, but it's the first time I've read his exact words and it sure sounds to me like Bettman is admitting defeat with regards to the Coyotes. He makes it sound like they are definitely moving, but he can't say it officially yet.

Like I said before, as someone who followed the whole Coyotes/Thrashers/Jets saga from the beginning of these threads, this is far more open than I've ever heard Bettman before.

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Old
12-08-2011, 03:54 AM
  #63
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....beer.

Best Coyotes post in 2 yrs thanks FUGU

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Old
12-08-2011, 04:34 AM
  #64
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I think that there could be another glitch that crept into potential deals. I have speculated that any deal in Glendale will come with an option to relocate in some years if things don't work out. That's all well and good, until the new ownership groups started discussing potential targets for relocation. Perhaps that is when the NHL got out the cold bucket of water and informed them that they could relocate to KC, not S. Ontario or QC. All of a sudden the safety net starts looking a bit ragged and that trapeze is still mighty high.
Chances are the Coyotes will pay some kind of buyout fee to Glendale if they want to move out. But I think the chances of them moving to Quebec City is at least 50% with how the conferences will be aligned starting next season.

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12-08-2011, 05:48 AM
  #65
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Chances are the Coyotes will pay some kind of buyout fee to Glendale if they want to move out. But I think the chances of them moving to Quebec City is at least 50% with how the conferences will be aligned starting next season.
No need to pay any buyout. Bankruptcy allows the cancellation of contracts. The original longterm lease was one of the contracts cancelled. The NHL is now on a year-to-year lease with Glendale. They can choose not to renew the lease after the 2012 Stanley Cup.

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12-08-2011, 06:29 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
And now, only one thread way from:

Phoenix XLII: The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything

And, damn it, I'm reserving that thread title even if I have to take up Fugu's persistent arm twisting generous offer to become a Mod to do it.

The story thus far:

Billions of years ago, a race of hyper-intelligent, pan-dimensional beings commissioned the construction of the planet Earth to answer the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything - just how in the hell is that Phoenix thing going to end?
...[/url]
Bravo!

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12-08-2011, 07:53 AM
  #67
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Sure enough, and they wanted the COG to GUARANTEE 'X' Dollars on the CFD in order to cover their debt servicing on loans they hoped to acquire from private investors and apparently/reputedly from a bank. Glendale effectively the co-signer. Pretty crazy move huh?...
So crazy that soon thereafter Glendale gave them exclusive negotiating rights for a few months until they finally realized that IEH didn't have enough money to buy the team.

And don't forget the 5 "home" games in Saskatoon ploy, offered by the IEH group.

Mind you, Reinsdorf's proposal didn't seem that much more realistic. He demanded $65 million up front and about $97 million in subsidies from a CFD derived from a now foreclosed retail complex that contained about a dozen restaurants, a movie multiplex and several other small retail outlets. It would have required CFD revenues equivalent to almost $1 million per retail business in Westgate per annum. I'm still trying to figure out how serious businessmen ever thought that could fly.

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12-08-2011, 07:53 AM
  #68
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And now, only one thread way from:
68,000 posts.

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12-08-2011, 07:56 AM
  #69
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I go on vacation for two weeks starting Monday so I expect this whole thing to be resolved by the time I return....


Let's see.... the CoG doesn't do anything until they are 15 minutes away from a deadline, and the NHL has given them no deadline... so, I'm certain that we will all still be here spinning our wheels when you get back.

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12-08-2011, 09:14 AM
  #70
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Let's see.... the CoG doesn't do anything until they are 15 minutes away from a deadline, and the NHL has given them no deadline... so, I'm certain that we will all still be here spinning our wheels when you get back.
http://www.glendalestar.com/news/art...tml?TNNoMobile

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12-08-2011, 09:24 AM
  #71
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As goyotes said..... nobody has any real info as to what is actually going on between the NHL and the two known groups looking to buy the Coyotes.
You are making quite the assumption there; claiming that "nobody has any real info as to what is going on" behind the scenes is quite definitive, as if you somehow know this to be a certainty. Perhaps someone does have real info as to what is going on behind the scenes but they just haven't published it yet? Heh.

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12-08-2011, 09:34 AM
  #72
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Could it really be taking all of these months for a prospective owner to negotiate a deal with the NHL? What would take so long? Presumably, the NHL has already decided on the minimum selling price, so that shouldn't take months to negotiate. Perhaps the issue relates to relocation rights in case things don't turn around in Glendale. Perhaps the new owners are trying to get assurances from the NHL about their future options to determine the upside in case they decide to relocate in the future. That would be a very messy and unpredictable situation to try to negotiate up front.

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12-08-2011, 09:44 AM
  #73
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Is there anyone who has at least some doubt that if the Coyotes ultimately are relocated that it will be to Quebec City? More and more people here seem to be building the concensus that Quebec City is the relocation destination, if needed.

I'm still not convinced, though I am sure Quebec City will get a team in the not too distant future.

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Old
12-08-2011, 10:05 AM
  #74
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It's Christmas time, everything I'm sure has been put on hold till mid-January. Wish this situation would hurry up and resolve itself, 3 years is an awfully long time to run around in a circle getting nowhere.

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Old
12-08-2011, 10:09 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Material Defender View Post
This article makes me think that Reinsdorf isn't back in the picture at all. Scruggs doesn't mention him by name once but goes into detail with regards to their negotiations with Jamison.

The other interesting part is:

Quote:
"We have the NHL, the potential buyers (and Glendale) and all three have to come to the same place," Scruggs said. "The situation is really a matter of all three entities coming together for Glendale to vote on something. We can't do anything until then, and nothing has changed for us."
So I guess we can still expect another vote? I know they're just formalities anyways because they'll always vote yes, but I just figured we were done with them at this stage.

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