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Old
12-08-2011, 10:32 PM
  #1
Aurel Joliat
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Canadiens vs Yankees

I am a huge Canadiens fan and a huge Yankees fan. I like mythic teams and their history. Yankees won 27 championships, and 24 for the Habs.

But the 2 organizations took 2 differents ways in recent years... The Yankees still today the most hated team in baseball. The team that everyone wants to beat. The team that every baseball fan want to see, with superstars and future hall of Famers. Every year they have the chance to win the world series.

What happen to our Canadiens ? It make me sick. We are suppose to be a model, not a shame. A team whitout any stars (except Price), boring games, intimidated players... Maybe the Yankees give a lot of money to attract their players, but Gauthier can use the entire salary cap and that's the kind of team he gives us ??? During this time, many teams before us in the standings have difficulty to reach the floor.

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12-08-2011, 10:37 PM
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McSorleyStick
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Are you a Celtics fan too ?


Anyway, the Habs are a conservative club, run by conservative people

The Yanks dont live in the 50's

However, it helps that there is no salary cap in the MLB.

Also, NY has so many pro teams that it takes some pressure of the Yankee players.

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12-08-2011, 10:37 PM
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SouthernHab
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Commitment to excellence

vs.

Commitment to full seats based upon the lore of the Canadiens.

No brainer.

As far as not having a Cap, there is a luxury tax for excessive spending in baseball. You think Molson would spend more money only to give it to the other teams for spending so much money?

Methinks Molson is cheap.

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12-08-2011, 10:39 PM
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uiCk
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Yea they took a different roads. Yanks play baseball, in NON cap league, with team budget that's vastly superior to all other teams.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries

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12-08-2011, 10:42 PM
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Lafleurs Guy
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Yea they took a different roads. Yanks play baseball, in NON cap league, with team budget that's vastly superior to all other teams.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries
Yes, the Yanks have a huge payroll advantage. They basically buy championships.

As for us, we don't invest in top picks or prospects. We just kind of go with whatever is the best FA willing to come play for us and that's why we haven't had a top ten scorer in 25 years. We've really just been spinning our wheels since Roy left.

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12-08-2011, 10:43 PM
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Et le But
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Salary cap, enough said.

If there was no cap, it would be the Leafs, Habs and Rangers every year. Instead, how many cups do the three of them have combined over the past 30 years?

In baseball, options like tanking are essentially useless long term.

Part of the reason the NHL is so great is it has the most parity of any sport...but it has come at the Habs expense.

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12-08-2011, 10:44 PM
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Aurel Joliat
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Maybe if our management did not give almost 4 M$ for Spacek, 6 for Markov, 7,5 for Gomez etc, we would have place to build a better team...

The Yankees in New York are as big than the Canadiens in Montreal. Guess what they are talking about in december in New York's sports radio ? Yankees. Just like hockey is in Montreal so it's not a good reason.

And the Yankees drafted their stars players like Jeter and Rivera a long time ago, and Cano, Gardner and Montero recently.

EDIT : there was no salary cap in the NHL 7 years ago and we were as bad as today...

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12-08-2011, 10:45 PM
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Andy
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Having played baseball for 11 years I'd like to say that baseball is an entirely different sport and doesn't even compare in the slightest to hockey(for obvious reasons, but there are also many subtle reasons that I don't want to get into).

Second, the Yankees function in a capless system, not the same beast at all.

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12-08-2011, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
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Having played baseball for 11 years I'd like to say that baseball is an entirely different sport and doesn't even compare in the slightest to hockey(for obvious reasons, but there are also many subtle reasons that I don't want to get into).

Second, the Yankees function in a capless system, not the same beast at all.
Instead of a salary cap, Major League Baseball implements a luxury tax, an arrangement in which teams whose total payroll exceeds a certain figure (determined annually) are taxed on the excess amount. The tax is paid to the league, which then puts the money into its industry-growth fund.

A team that goes over the luxury tax cap for the first time in a five-year period pays a penalty of 22.5% of the amount they were over the cap, second-time violators pay a 30% penalty, and teams that exceed the limit three or more times pay a 40% penalty. The cap limit for 2010 is $170 million, and the cap for 2011 is $178 million.

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12-08-2011, 10:51 PM
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Et le But
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There's also the inconvenient truth that the Habs dynasties had Quebecois cores during an era when Quebec consistently produced the best talent in hockey. I'm not saying we were only great by having talent in our backyard, but it sure as hell made scouting easier before everything changed in the 80s.

Very few of the Yankees all time greats were from the New York area.

And while I'm a New York native who loves Montreal more than where I'm originally from, Montreal is not exactly New York. Playing for the Yankees means virtually unlimited marketing opportunities. Playing for the Habs means virtually unlimited marketing opportunities...for the Quebec market, and maybe the Canadian market if you are lucky. Nobody will know who you are in the United States.

Montreal has unfortunately gotten the reputation of the worst of both worlds...guys from the area are overwhelmed by the attention, while other Canadians and Americans only know the city from stereotypes. You'd be shocked at what I hear a lot of Americans think Montreal is like.

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12-08-2011, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Salary cap, enough said.

If there was no cap, it would be the Leafs, Habs and Rangers every year. Instead, how many cups do the three of them have combined over the past 30 years?

In baseball, options like tanking are essentially useless long term.

Part of the reason the NHL is so great is it has the most parity of any sport...but it has come at the Habs expense.
LOL if they had no cap HAbs would be worse of and probably would spend even less- certainly not more-

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12-08-2011, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Maybe if our management did not give almost 4 M$ for Spacek, 6 for Markov, 7,5 for Gomez etc, we would have place to build a better team...

The Yankees in New York are as big than the Canadiens in Montreal. Guess what they are talking about in december in New York's sports radio ? Yankees. Just like hockey is in Montreal so it's not a good reason.

And the Yankees drafted their stars players like Jeter and Rivera a long time ago, and Cano, Gardner and Montero recently.

EDIT : there was no salary cap in the NHL 7 years ago and we were as bad as today...
you gotta know when you take on gomez contract and give a what you did for him- that the brain trust isnt so bright-

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12-08-2011, 10:55 PM
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It's harder to build a hockey team, even if you ignore the salary cap. Baseball is an individual sport where one or two fa signings can turn any team into a powerhouse. Add the lack of a salary cap and you can begin to understand why the yankees and red sox have been so successful.

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12-08-2011, 11:01 PM
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Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
It's harder to build a hockey team, even if you ignore the salary cap. Baseball is an individual sport where one or two fa signings can turn any team into a powerhouse. Add the lack of a salary cap and you can begin to understand why the yankees and red sox have been so successful.
Thanks, this too.

In baseball, you splurge for one elite pitcher, you can singlehandedly turn a team around.

Hockey, one great player means you have one great player.

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12-08-2011, 11:04 PM
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uiCk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
It's harder to build a hockey team, even if you ignore the salary cap. Baseball is an individual sport where one or two fa signings can turn any team into a powerhouse. Add the lack of a salary cap and you can begin to understand why the yankees and red sox have been so successful.
Logic? Reasoning? what?

nono, here all you need to do to be successful is to want to be successful. Habs management and owners obviously don't want to, so we can't. Yanks want to, so they can.

Am i getting it right OP?

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12-08-2011, 11:04 PM
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Im also a big Yankees fan and a big Habs fan, and while its true that the Yankees have a high payroll the era of buying teams is really over. Their best players (Jeter Gardner Cano etc.) are all organization players and the future is coming from within the Yankees organization not from outside of it. The answer really is that teams are cyclical. During the late '70s and all throughout the '80s the Yankees were hopeless regardless of how big their payroll is. Yes we are in a bit of a slump and we havnt won the cup in a long time but that doesnt make our history any less than that of the Yankees. Hopefully in the near future we cycle back to the top of the league.

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12-08-2011, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Thanks, this too.

In baseball, you splurge for one elite pitcher, you can singlehandedly turn a team around.

Hockey, one great player means you have one great player.
True. Get a Cy Young-winning pitcher, and you're almost automatically a contender. Trade Tim Thomas, the Bruins don't win the Cup... and the team who gets Thomas might not even make the playoffs.

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12-08-2011, 11:09 PM
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We are not the Yankees. A few years ago we tried to sign Lemaire and it didn't happen because management did not approve his salary. We signed Martin instead because he was cheaper. The Yankees would have signed the guy they wanted regardless of salary.

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12-08-2011, 11:10 PM
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True. Get a Cy Young-winning pitcher, and you're almost automatically a contender. Trade Tim Thomas, the Bruins don't win the Cup... and the team who gets Thomas might not even make the playoffs.
Pretty much this.

Baseball is just one those sports where the parts are usually more important the sum of the parts.

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12-08-2011, 11:12 PM
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We are not the Yankees. A few years ago we tried to sign Lemaire and it didn't happen because management did not approve his salary. We signed Martin instead because he was cheaper. The Yankees would have signed the guy they wanted regardless of salary.


Man oh man, I've now heard 4 different reasons as to why Lemaire did not sign with the Canadiens three years ago.

the first I heard was that he hated the media, the second was that if he was here that he wanted the majority of the players to be traded, the third was that the habs were unwilling to give him carte blance and now it's that they didn't want to pay his salary.

This is what I find funny about Montreal. This is pretty much just all speculation.

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12-08-2011, 11:18 PM
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Et le But
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Originally Posted by whereizzy View Post
Im also a big Yankees fan and a big Habs fan, and while its true that the Yankees have a high payroll the era of buying teams is really over. Their best players (Jeter Gardner Cano etc.) are all organization players and the future is coming from within the Yankees organization not from outside of it. The answer really is that teams are cyclical. During the late '70s and all throughout the '80s the Yankees were hopeless regardless of how big their payroll is. Yes we are in a bit of a slump and we havnt won the cup in a long time but that doesnt make our history any less than that of the Yankees. Hopefully in the near future we cycle back to the top of the league.
As someone else who is a Yankees fan I agree to some extent - prospects come and go, and while a lot of it comes down to scouting, there is an element of luck, the Yankees core was a mix of a a lot of things, and that core has made is easy to rebuild when things go wrong, while it wasn't possible in the 70s and 80s when the system was empty. Sports are always cyclical, with every major sport I can think of a time when the current dominant teams were awful (except the Lakers).

But unlimited money definitely helps the Yankees, as to fix holes they don't have to give anything else up.

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12-08-2011, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post


Man oh man, I've now heard 4 different reasons as to why Lemaire did not sign with the Canadiens three years ago.

the first I heard was that he hated the media, the second was that if he was here that he wanted the majority of the players to be traded, the third was that the habs were unwilling to give him carte blance and now it's that they didn't want to pay his salary.

This is what I find funny about Montreal. This is pretty much just all speculation.
The one I've heard from Lemaire himself (or was it from his bestest buddy Tremblay?) was that he thought he had the job after talking to Gainey, was told it was his, was expecting a phone call that never came... then saw the news that JM had been hired.

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12-08-2011, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by whereizzy View Post
Im also a big Yankees fan and a big Habs fan, and while its true that the Yankees have a high payroll the era of buying teams is really over. Their best players (Jeter Gardner Cano etc.) are all organization players and the future is coming from within the Yankees organization not from outside of it. The answer really is that teams are cyclical. During the late '70s and all throughout the '80s the Yankees were hopeless regardless of how big their payroll is. Yes we are in a bit of a slump and we havnt won the cup in a long time but that doesnt make our history any less than that of the Yankees. Hopefully in the near future we cycle back to the top of the league.
The argument that they drafted their best players trumps not having a salary cap is a ******** excuse. The fact that they basically have an unlimited spending limit to keep whatever players develop is still a huge advantage over any league with a cap.

The Yankees paid A-Rod $32M last season, while the entire payroll for KC was $36.1M. There is no logical way that you can compare a team in a non-capped sport with any team in a sport that has a hard cap. Watching the same teams buy their way into the post season every year is why I walked away from MLB to begin with and I don't miss it and it's stupidity one bit. God bless the NFL and what they started with salary caps.

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12-08-2011, 11:38 PM
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would they yankees bury / buy-out Gomez ? Yes !!!

What will we do? We already gave him 1 more chance this season...

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12-08-2011, 11:41 PM
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whereizzy
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The argument that they drafted their best players trumps not having a salary cap is a ******** excuse. The fact that they basically have an unlimited spending limit to keep whatever players develop is still a huge advantage over any league with a cap.

The Yankees paid A-Rod $32M last season, while the entire payroll for KC was $36.1M. There is no logical way that you can compare a team in a non-capped sport with any team in a sport that has a hard cap. Watching the same teams buy their way into the post season every year is why I walked away from MLB to begin with and I don't miss it and it's stupidity one bit. God bless the NFL and what they started with salary caps.
There wasnt a single player I would have rather had batting for my yanks with the season on the line than Cano unfortunately we had A-Rod and lost in the first round of the playoffs. He's been pretty average for a while now. With regards to salary cap fairness/unfairness I see your point with reagrds to baseball but not within the framing of this conversation the Habs have one of the highest payrolls in the NHL close to Detroit, Boston, Chicago etc. If your argument that money is the be all and end all in how a team performs then why are we not on the par of these consistently great teams? The answer is simple its cyclical. It takes a lot of experimenting with players managment front office etc. to get a consistently great team. Thats what the Yankees have and thats why its been the same core since the mid '90s. And they have been able to succesfully transiton away from there core by exposing new players to the old core. Thats how greatness is bred. Unfortunatly we had a bit of a gap where new recruits werent exposed to the greats. Unfortunate but that doesnt make us hopeless. We could still win in the near future and frankly one or two drafts/ maybe a coaching change (though im not on the fire everybody including JM and PG bandwagon) could make our dynamic completly different

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