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01-21-2013, 07:16 AM
  #201
Orpheus
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Vaan is not the main character of 12. SE pulled a sucker punch (before that movie ever came out) and made you play as the lancer while the main character that the story revolved around (Ashe) was not who you started off as.

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01-21-2013, 12:43 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Vaan, which is considered the main character, literally has no reason to be in the game in the first place.
What I found disappointing was before I knew the background of why/how he was created it almost seemed like they had something bigger in mind for him with how he could see the prince guys ghost, the same as Ashe, but then they just drop it without any sort of explanation.

Regardless though while I'd consider it a poor 'Final Fantasy' game I still thought it was a very good game overall.

And if you want an overly androgynous JRPG character, holy **** has anyone seen video's of that Pandora's Tower game that's finally getting it's release along side Xenoblade and The Last Story for the Wii in NA?

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01-22-2013, 01:08 AM
  #203
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I honestly don't think there's been an 'honest to god' good FINAL FANTASY since FFIX, maybe X (I've always been up in the air about it, should probably have a replay). Have there been some good games like X and XII? Yes, but I realistically can't say I've enjoyed that classic FF feeling since Zidane and FFIX. FFVII, VIII, IX were great, IMO. X was a good game, but didn't stike me like a regular FF. XI online is my crack, but MMOs are a different story. XII was a decent game, not FF, and XIII and all it's demon offspring are abominations, IMO.

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01-22-2013, 01:56 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I honestly don't think there's been an 'honest to god' good FINAL FANTASY since FFIX, maybe X (I've always been up in the air about it, should probably have a replay). Have there been some good games like X and XII? Yes, but I realistically can't say I've enjoyed that classic FF feeling since Zidane and FFIX. FFVII, VIII, IX were great, IMO. X was a good game, but didn't stike me like a regular FF. XI online is my crack, but MMOs are a different story. XII was a decent game, not FF, and XIII and all it's demon offspring are abominations, IMO.
So what's the 'classic' FF feel if you're only listing the PS1 era as the greats? Considering that IV-VI were different from the above group, and again with I-III.

I get what you mean but keep in mind that each gen is different. In my opinion X fits in perfectly fine with the rest, but then where the series feels 'wrong' is in the past 3 console gens you had 3 Final Fantasy releases on each, for the PS2 they devoted a lot into FFXI which was an MMO, then FFXII had a MMO feel to it, FFXIII can probably be described as a failed attempt at the next evolution (compared to I, IV, VII, and X) and now we're back to FFXIV which is another MMO taking up all their development time.

So there's a solid progression from FF I-X, and XI is the c-c-c-c-combo breaker!!! that they haven't really recovered from. Not that XI was necessarily a bad game, but it represents a shift in priorities.

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01-22-2013, 03:51 AM
  #205
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Dont forget that I - XI were all made by Hironobu Sakaguchi. 12, 13 and 14 were all made by someone else.

The thing is with Final Fantasy, 1 - 6 where mostly medieval games. VII had a lot of sci fi but were still a lot like the old ones. Huge grass fields, mountains, villages etc, but mixed with sci fi, and this worked well. The same with Final Fantasy VIII, and that also worked out great. Final Fantasy IX went more back into the games roots and were alot more medieval then 7 and 8. X where also quite medieval in a way, it had that post apocalyptic feeling. Not so much technology. So there were a shift with Nintendo and PS1/Ps2 era on how the FF games where. On PS3 era, they ****ed it up completly with doing something they never should have done, they went all sci fi. And at what point where this game at it's best? Archylte Steppe, in the damn fantasy land. Where there were barley any technology. Remove 90% of the sci fi and i think we would all enjoy it more. Just a crazy theory... i know i would have enjoyed the game more if it where less sci fi and more Archylte Steppe.

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01-22-2013, 07:17 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
So what's the 'classic' FF feel if you're only listing the PS1 era as the greats? Considering that IV-VI were different from the above group, and again with I-III.

I get what you mean but keep in mind that each gen is different. In my opinion X fits in perfectly fine with the rest, but then where the series feels 'wrong' is in the past 3 console gens you had 3 Final Fantasy releases on each, for the PS2 they devoted a lot into FFXI which was an MMO, then FFXII had a MMO feel to it, FFXIII can probably be described as a failed attempt at the next evolution (compared to I, IV, VII, and X) and now we're back to FFXIV which is another MMO taking up all their development time.

So there's a solid progression from FF I-X, and XI is the c-c-c-c-combo breaker!!! that they haven't really recovered from. Not that XI was necessarily a bad game, but it represents a shift in priorities.
XI is the most profitable FF...ever.

And it has a story that more than matches any game that is not 6.

It was also one of the most popular MMOs of its day.

To say the problem started with XI is completely wrong.

I'd rather play XI, XII, XIII and XIV a million times before playing VII and IX again.

The problem with the entire series is that they should ignore their fans and not make sequels to games like 4, 7 and 13. That and people find their favorite FF and become complete fanboys of them, constantly comparing the new games to their favorite in the series.

Essentially, and this is just my opinion, people played 7 and liked what it brought to the table, and wanted more of that story and that combat system, when FF has never retained story between games (Gilgamesh aside).

And to the person saying FF6 isn't techy, you are crazy, it's just like 7 (8 is probably the most tech based until 13)

And XIV is only taking up all their development time because they massively screwed it up (which was why the old guy in charge was regulated to a window seat). This is no different than what's happening with Skyrim right now (They are doing nothing until the PS3 version is fixed) except 14 has the potential to be more profitable than 100 skyrims, so SE is bringing in all the big guns.

SE isn't getting a free pass here, their iOS games have been atrocious and they are too focused on sequels, but I would not argue the mainline FF series is in a bad state right now.

13 has great combat, weak story, its no different than 7.

The second you go into a FF games with preconceived notions and you instantly compare it to past games, you might as well not continue playing because you are letting nostalgia cloud your judgement.

I beat every FF once a year pretty much, and my favorite is still 6, but I will never compare modern FF games to 6, gaming has simply changed too much.

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01-22-2013, 07:48 AM
  #207
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7 is the same as 13? Allow me, and the rest of the world, to laugh at you.
In 13, you run staright forward for 30h and have to endure a ****** story while the game restrict you in every possible way. You cant go right, you cant go left, you cant even level up the way you want. You cannot explore the world. The way you play XIII is awful and it is like no other FF. You have no freedom, no sidemissions or anything. All you hope for is that the next area will be better. Untill you are 30h in and just tired of it...

XIII felt like this:



Except for that it has less freedom...

And it is nothing like VII. Dont compare them :

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01-22-2013, 09:06 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Everlasting View Post
7 is the same as 13? Allow me, and the rest of the world, to laugh at you.
In 13, you run staright forward for 30h and have to endure a ****** story while the game restrict you in every possible way. You cant go right, you cant go left, you cant even level up the way you want. You cannot explore the world. The way you play XIII is awful and it is like no other FF. You have no freedom, no sidemissions or anything. All you hope for is that the next area will be better. Untill you are 30h in and just tired of it...

XIII felt like this:



Except for that it has less freedom...

And it is nothing like VII. Dont compare them :
13 and 7 have the same story depth, 13 might actually have the better villain too.

13 was linear as all hell (I agree with that) until Grand pulse, but Midgar was pretty damned linear too until you hit the open world. The only difference between the two games is the length at which you are restricted. But some people were fine with the rails (like me, cause frankly, FF 13 feels less linear to me than FFX) too. Linear is not a bad thing, but both 13 and 7 use their linear moments to pack in story, and that's where a lot of people have a problem with 13, the story was not worth caring about so the linearity was really noticed.

If you want a great example of extreme linearity and amazing story, that game is Uncharted.

7 is not some sacred cow of the FF series.

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01-22-2013, 10:11 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
13 and 7 have the same story depth, 13 might actually have the better villain too.

13 was linear as all hell (I agree with that) until Grand pulse, but Midgar was pretty damned linear too until you hit the open world. The only difference between the two games is the length at which you are restricted. But some people were fine with the rails (like me, cause frankly, FF 13 feels less linear to me than FFX) too. Linear is not a bad thing, but both 13 and 7 use their linear moments to pack in story, and that's where a lot of people have a problem with 13, the story was not worth caring about so the linearity was really noticed.

If you want a great example of extreme linearity and amazing story, that game is Uncharted.

7 is not some sacred cow of the FF series.
That logic is just messed up. It takes around 3-4h to get out of midgar. And Midgar is not a linear "nothing to do" path. There are cities, shops, secret places and other cool stuff to do. You can explore midgar. What you just wrote, does not make any sense, in any kind of way. They are nothing alike and they should not be compared.

13 is just mindlesly running straight forward. "Fight, run, fight, run, stop and talk": Repeat for 30h. That is FF 13. And when the these narrow paths had some secret like a chest, it was often displayed in the map. 13 restricts EVERYTHING in your gameplayexperience. That is so anti final fantasy you can be. Final Fantasy have always been amazing becuse of the freedom and challanges. This game removed all that and dumbed down the gameplay. Sure, some of these paths were really cool and it was fun playing it. But the longer it went on, the more frustrating the game became.

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01-22-2013, 10:43 AM
  #210
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It's not really that messed up, a lot of arguements have been made (I'm not one of them) that FF as a whole tends to be linear until the airship (there's a lot of exceptions to this)

No ones arguing FF13 isn't linear, but a lot of the FF games have a section that is linear. FF13s main problem is that the linear section is too long with a story not interesting enough to make you want to get through it.

Try replaying a section of Midgar from 7 and try not to see the linearity in it. Yes, you do have freedom to "shop" and play around a little bit in the sandbox, but the correct "path" that you have to follow is still there.

Here's an example.

FF13: A > B > C > D right? That's its linearity.

FF7 Midgar: A (opening to 7th Heaven) > B (2nd reactor) > (going to skip a few steps for time sake) > C1 (front entrance to Shrine HQ) or C2 (Backdoor) > D (leaving Midgar) is also linear.

The point of debate is whether towns and a couple of little secrets as well as the freedom erase the linearity, which I contend I don't think they do, because I define non-linear gameplay as the World of Ruin.

Uncharted again is a good example, just because a level has jungle gym sections where you can climb things in different ways, the sections as a whole are still linear progression wise.

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01-22-2013, 10:53 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
It's not really that messed up, a lot of arguements have been made (I'm not one of them) that FF as a whole tends to be linear until the airship (there's a lot of exceptions to this)

No ones arguing FF13 isn't linear, but a lot of the FF games have a section that is linear. FF13s main problem is that the linear section is too long with a story not interesting enough to make you want to get through it.

Try replaying a section of Midgar from 7 and try not to see the linearity in it. Yes, you do have freedom to "shop" and play around a little bit in the sandbox, but the correct "path" that you have to follow is still there.

Here's an example.

FF13: A > B > C > D right? That's its linearity.

FF7 Midgar: A (opening to 7th Heaven) > B (2nd reactor) > (going to skip a few steps for time sake) > C1 (front entrance to Shrine HQ) or C2 (Backdoor) > D (leaving Midgar) is also linear.

The point of debate is whether towns and a couple of little secrets as well as the freedom erase the linearity, which I contend I don't think they do, because I define non-linear gameplay as the World of Ruin.

Uncharted again is a good example, just because a level has jungle gym sections where you can climb things in different ways, the sections as a whole are still linear progression wise.
Bolded what I find to be the big problem with FF13. I can't finish it because I am just not interested in it at all. Not only that, the characters themselves aren't interesting enough to get attached to them. I got attached to the characters of FF7 easily, mainly because they were likeable and had distinct personalities. And I was one who cried for Aeris/Aerith (whichever spelling you choose). The level progression of spells and other traits are insanely linear compared to FF7. Yes I get that FF7 has a default stat distribution for each character, but each character could be essentially what you need them to be in the idea of materia (not limited to certain classes) and materia itself can level up, becoming better. Not only that, some materia can improve on other spells in ways that I have yet to see in other games (Mimic, Quad, Counter, etc). Also, the difference I find in the first 5 hours of each game is that there is a more clearly defined villain in 7 than in 13, and a less cluttered story. In general, how the story unfolds gives you reasons to care about the characters in 7 I find more than in 13.

Oh, as a side note, to really get the full gist of the story and everything going on in FF13, you have to read every single one of those information tabs in the menus. What a ****** way of explaining your story in a game by making you stop playing to read for a long while. It really kills the pacing and ease of understanding the game.

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01-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #212
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So what's the 'classic' FF feel if you're only listing the PS1 era as the greats? Considering that IV-VI were different from the above group, and again with I-III.

I get what you mean but keep in mind that each gen is different. In my opinion X fits in perfectly fine with the rest, but then where the series feels 'wrong' is in the past 3 console gens you had 3 Final Fantasy releases on each, for the PS2 they devoted a lot into FFXI which was an MMO, then FFXII had a MMO feel to it, FFXIII can probably be described as a failed attempt at the next evolution (compared to I, IV, VII, and X) and now we're back to FFXIV which is another MMO taking up all their development time.

So there's a solid progression from FF I-X, and XI is the c-c-c-c-combo breaker!!! that they haven't really recovered from. Not that XI was necessarily a bad game, but it represents a shift in priorities.
I didn't mean only VII, VIII, IX were great. I meant they were the last great ones. I could have said I-IX but I don't think all 9 were great. And I did say X was a maybe for me, so I'm not totally against it. I would enjoy replaying it, but I just think the feeling was starting to change there. XI I love, but I don't think XI and IV should count in the numbered series. My point is really that X-2, XII, XIII, XIII-2 and now this new Lightning Returns stuff all miss that classic FF feeling, to me.

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01-22-2013, 11:39 AM
  #213
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I disagree with Orpheus' definition of linear.


Yes, A > B > C > D is linear but in FFXIII it's a literal A > B > C > D. In VII it A (explore it, wander around it, take 20 hours just to talk to ever NPC, enter every house, look in every corner) > B (repeat, if you like) > C (same) > and so on. FFXIII actually felt like running down a hallway because half the time, that's what it was. FFVII the story progressed in a linear fashion but you were free to roam to your heart's content. In other words, you choose how linear to make the game. If you want to go straight from to A to B to C than it will be pretty linear, but you can meander and take your time and explore and feel immersed in the cities and villages. In XIII it's not only linear, but you're basically funneled straight from point A to B.

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01-22-2013, 12:00 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I disagree with Orpheus' definition of linear.


Yes, A > B > C > D is linear but in FFXIII it's a literal A > B > C > D. In VII it A (explore it, wander around it, take 20 hours just to talk to ever NPC, enter every house, look in every corner) > B (repeat, if you like) > C (same) > and so on. FFXIII actually felt like running down a hallway because half the time, that's what it was. FFVII the story progressed in a linear fashion but you were free to roam to your heart's content. In other words, you choose how linear to make the game. If you want to go straight from to A to B to C than it will be pretty linear, but you can meander and take your time and explore and feel immersed in the cities and villages. In XIII it's not only linear, but you're basically funneled straight from point A to B.
13 basically has npcs to talk to and the shop system, but the whole thing is streamlined so much and the npcs are so bland and pointless that it might as well not even be there. That's what I mean when I say that FF7 gives you a sandbox to play in, even if Midgar is still linear when you think about it, there's depth to the sandbox and lots to do in it, whereas FF13 is as someone said, nothing to do in the sandbox except go in a straight line.

One other thing about 13, is that they confused story depth with complicated words, so I agree with the sentiment that the only way for most people to understand the story was to read the information tab. The whole l'cie and fal'cie thing ended up being really confusing unless you really cared.

But that is why the Midgar sequence is such a great comparison to 13. They are both linear, but one does it in an interesting way and the other, well, is FF13.


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01-22-2013, 01:50 PM
  #215
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I wasn't putting down FFXI as a bad game, just stating that this seemed to be the point where priorities shifted. FFXII dropped the turn base battle system and used more of a MMORPG one, FFXIII was FFXIII, and XIV is another MMORPG.

And regardless of how FF like it is or how good the story is on FFXI or how much money it made, if you're not into MMO's and their monthly prescriptions but prefer single player. And fact is a single player FF games sells between 5-10 million, I can't find total sales figures on FFXI but it only seems to have a consistent subscription base of a few hundred thousand.

So a lot of FF fans aren't being served by it. Maybe it's not realistic but if Square followed the NES-PS1 strategy then between the PS2-3 we'd have 6 new single player FF games, but instead we have 2 standard single player (being fair to FFXIII as that's what they aimed for), 1 hybrid, and 2 mmo's.

Quote:
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It's not really that messed up, a lot of arguements have been made (I'm not one of them) that FF as a whole tends to be linear until the airship (there's a lot of exceptions to this)

No ones arguing FF13 isn't linear, but a lot of the FF games have a section that is linear. FF13s main problem is that the linear section is too long with a story not interesting enough to make you want to get through it.
Here I think you're using the wrong language. If you go by a FAQ basically all JRPG's are 'linear'. Even when you get the airship there's generally only a single specific point where you need to proceed to next, apart from the occasional side quest. FFVI was the only one to really break this mold with the world of ruin.

But what all these JRPG's also had and what should really be up for discussion is an element of exploration and puzzle solving. There may only be one place to go, but you don't necessary know where it is so you have to go looking for it. And sometimes how to get there is blocked so you need to figure something out first. The 'classic' JRPG format is not just a long linear string of grind-story-grind-story-grind-story-etc, there are other elements involved to break up the tedium. The above is something developers started streamlining towards during the PS2 era, with square being the worst offender, in pretty much the same way games like Call of Duty streamlined FPS's from open maps to straight line corridors. And I still want to play it but from everything I here FFXIII is Square's worst offender here.

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01-22-2013, 05:03 PM
  #216
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I wasn't putting down FFXI as a bad game, just stating that this seemed to be the point where priorities shifted. FFXII dropped the turn base battle system and used more of a MMORPG one, FFXIII was FFXIII, and XIV is another MMORPG.

And regardless of how FF like it is or how good the story is on FFXI or how much money it made, if you're not into MMO's and their monthly prescriptions but prefer single player. And fact is a single player FF games sells between 5-10 million, I can't find total sales figures on FFXI but it only seems to have a consistent subscription base of a few hundred thousand.

So a lot of FF fans aren't being served by it. Maybe it's not realistic but if Square followed the NES-PS1 strategy then between the PS2-3 we'd have 6 new single player FF games, but instead we have 2 standard single player (being fair to FFXIII as that's what they aimed for), 1 hybrid, and 2 mmo's.



Here I think you're using the wrong language. If you go by a FAQ basically all JRPG's are 'linear'. Even when you get the airship there's generally only a single specific point where you need to proceed to next, apart from the occasional side quest. FFVI was the only one to really break this mold with the world of ruin.

But what all these JRPG's also had and what should really be up for discussion is an element of exploration and puzzle solving. There may only be one place to go, but you don't necessary know where it is so you have to go looking for it. And sometimes how to get there is blocked so you need to figure something out first. The 'classic' JRPG format is not just a long linear string of grind-story-grind-story-grind-story-etc, there are other elements involved to break up the tedium. The above is something developers started streamlining towards during the PS2 era, with square being the worst offender, in pretty much the same way games like Call of Duty streamlined FPS's from open maps to straight line corridors. And I still want to play it but from everything I here FFXIII is Square's worst offender here.
FFXI actually still has the ATB system, you just don't see the bar.

Oh, and FFXI peaked at between 500,000 and a million players. Considering it costs 15 bucks a month and has been out for over 10 years, its a giant cash cow.

And like I said, I found FF13 worth playing for what they did with summons and the paradigm system alone, but I understand that's not enough for some people or that the flaws really deter people.

While I agree that SE fell into the mold of three FF games per platform, FFXI didn't really break the mold (cause you could argue X-2 takes its place). It's this gen that they really screwed it up, but that's because the engine they made for FF13 turned out to be absolute crap and they put the wrong person in charge of FF14. So I think that's an anomaly.

I wasn't arguing that all FF games are linear, but they all have sections (some really short, some extended) which become fairly linear (usually the intro). Again, FF13 takes this to an extreme, which is why it annoys so many people.

As for open ended RPGs, that would be the Persona series, more so 4 than 3 due to plot. You can completely ignore the story in the game and get a result (a bad ending, but still).

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