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2011 NL MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PEDs (EDIT: wins appeal! No suspension)

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Old
02-27-2012, 12:52 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
It really doesn't matter what Selig thinks. Protocol wasn't followed.

If I were a player, I'd want to hand my samples directly over to the testers as soon as they're done. The only way to assure some clown doesn't take it home for 3 days and do god knows what with all my personal info and the test.

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02-27-2012, 01:55 PM
  #202
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Braun has a very punchable face. And yeah, he cheated for sure

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02-28-2012, 04:17 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
He's just saving face for the MLB testing policy. Selig wouldn't apologize even Braun was 100% clearly innocent.

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02-28-2012, 04:28 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Any reasonable person would believe him. Testosterone makes you bigger, faster and stronger. If average t/e ratio is 1:1 and he was 20:1. I think you would notice a difference.
That's whats fishy.

MLB said Braun had a testosterone level 3 times higher than ANY sample ever taken. Shouldn't that have been a red flag that something may have been wrong with the test?

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02-28-2012, 05:17 PM
  #205
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Braun is one lucky SOB

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02-28-2012, 06:01 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Braun is one lucky SOB
I disagree. He's already had his reputation permanently scarred because of this fiasco. I don't consider that to be "lucky".

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02-28-2012, 06:16 PM
  #207
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Braun is one lucky SOB
not if you consider herpes lucky, but so is life

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02-28-2012, 11:52 PM
  #208
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The more and more I read, the more I think he was taking PEDs.

When his sample was delivered to the lab, there were not one but THREE tamper-proof seals that were all intact- so I think that puts to rest the idea that the courier messed with the sample.

And the fact that the sample was held in the couriers fridge for an extra day or whatever is only a mere technicality (one that allowed Braun to get off)- I heard a scientist on the radio today say that leaving a sample refrigerated for that long would only LOWER the PH level and not would not raise- certainly not to 20:1.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/76...owed-protocols

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02-29-2012, 01:18 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Stugots View Post
The more and more I read, the more I think he was taking PEDs.

When his sample was delivered to the lab, there were not one but THREE tamper-proof seals that were all intact- so I think that puts to rest the idea that the courier messed with the sample.
Pretty much. Essentially, you either have to assume that this guy had some motivation to intentionally mess with this particular sample, and somehow circumvented the tamper seals to do so ... or you have to believe that Braun's a cheater. Given the rampant cheating in baseball in recent years, which is more likely?

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02-29-2012, 03:40 PM
  #210
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I believe he cheated.

I understand why the ban was lifted (exclusionary rule), but there is a difference between being legally guilty and factually guilty.

Yes the ban was lifted, but he will forever have this mark on him and rightfully so.

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02-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #211
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You have to believe Braun had a reason to cheat. What reason would that be?

You would also have to believe that he has been cheating the whole time and either hasn't been caught or had a masking agent and if he had a masking agent what are the chances he forgot to use it during the playoffs when players know they're going to get tested?

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02-29-2012, 05:29 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
You have to believe Braun had a reason to cheat. What reason would that be?

You would also have to believe that he has been cheating the whole time and either hasn't been caught or had a masking agent and if he had a masking agent what are the chances he forgot to use it during the playoffs when players know they're going to get tested?
So what are the other explanations?

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Old
02-29-2012, 05:32 PM
  #213
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I have a hard time believing the doctor who administered the test's son or whatever just goes around messing with bottles of piss.
Its over and done with though and the effective of steroids is overrated.


A conspiracy theorist might say if he don't play for Bud's brew crew this don't get lifted.

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02-29-2012, 07:06 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
So what are the other explanations?
I've posted several things in this thread about what could have happened. I'll post them again. Fact is nobody knows exactly what happened other than the people who were actually in the hearing. Since the burden of proof is on Braun to get the suspension overturned and he convinced an independent arbitrator to overturn it, that speaks volumes right there.

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MLB has been testing players for PEDs for several years now, I don't know exactly how many, but for this discussion, let's go with 8 years. Ryan Braun's urine sample tested for a level of testosterone that was THREE TIMES higher than ANYONE had ever tested for. While you consider this, don't forget, this would include any player who has been caught, and has served a suspension under this program.

What do you suppose was the recorded speed of the most egregious speed limit violator on I-90 over the last eight years? Let's say that fastest speed was 100 MPH.

If a driver passed you on I-90, going three times faster than the fastest speed recorded in the last eight years, or in this case, 300 MPH....do you think you would have suspected this fella was speeding even without the help of law enforcement? Yes, of course you would...you would notice that this car was moving much faster than all of the other cars, even the naughty cars...you could see that for yourself, even if no one ever showed you a reading of the car's speed.

OK, so we're supposed to believe, that while Ryan Braun got no bigger, or stronger, or faster, or had any changes in mood or demeanor, he somehow DID have three times more testosterone in his body than any other MLB player has had in their body over the last eight years.

Not only do I find that completely implausible, I doubt it's scientifically possible.

Testosterone is intensely powerful, it produces a swift and measurable result, which is precisely why cheaters use the stuff. It completely defies logic to think that someone could cram THAT MUCH of the stuff into their body with no outward signs of it.

I realize, challenging the positive test result in itself would put the player in an almost "no win" situation, because the player bears the burden of proof...you'd get a highly scientific version of "is too, is not"...you'd also get a 50-game suspension. This is why Braun's team chose to attack the testing method, or in this case the chain of custody...and guess what, an independent arbitrator upheld the appeal...for reasons none of us have heard yet.

The bottom line is, for me, it is the test result itself that made me believe this was a "not guilty." Anyone with any understanding of hormone therapy would know...you simply cannot put a "fly me to the moon" level of testosterone in your body, without showing outward signs of it...testosterone is much more powerful than that.
And as far as synthetic testosterone goes.

Quote:
No, you can't spontaneously sprout synthetic T in urine sample, but the test that "determines" that synthetic T is present does not actually find synthetic T in urine. What it does is identify the metabolites produced when T is used up by your body processes. It identifies them only by very precisely detemining when the remnants of those metabolites pass in front of a sensor after the urine sample has been literally turned into a gas. The gas rises up a tube and the different remnant rise at microscopically different rates. A sensor records data about these remnants as they pass by. This data is turned into a printout (though it can also be evaluated just as numbers). Then you look on your printout for a peak at a given "time" on the graph, you measure that peak and make a determination as to what that means.

Here's the catch. What if two different things are passing by the sensor at a give time? If you are predisposed to think that everything passing by that sensor at that specific time is indicative of synthetic T, you're going to get a big peak that looks like a lot of synthetic T that is actually only a mcuh smaller amounts of two different things. (And that small amount, for reasons alluded to in posts long ago, would not mean that there was a small amount of synthetic T, either. A determination of synthetic T being present can only be made by comparing ratios of different carbon ions, both of which are present in nature, and then making a statistical hypothesis that a certain ratio is "out of whack" with what would normally be expected in a given sample. It's diagnostic art and statistics as much as anything.

This is a vast oversimplification, but the point is that you don't "find' synthetic T waving back at you from under a microscope. These tests are extraordinarily complex in nature. Just reading this simplified version should provide further insight into why I say it's virtually impossible for the athlete to challenge the conclusion of the testers when they say they're right.
Frankly, all anyone should have needed to hear was the overturned suspension. That is so difficult for a player to do under the current system that it basically proves something was going on either with tampering or improper storing. That goes for any player whether it be a star player like Ryan Braun or a bench player like Cesar Izturis.

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Old
02-29-2012, 08:27 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
How do you figure? He even offered to do a DNA test on his sample, but the MLB declined.

He also took another test days after the positive test came back and it was clean.

It's pretty evident that the sample was tampered with.
umm....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stugots View Post
The more and more I read, the more I think he was taking PEDs.
When his sample was delivered to the lab, there were not one but THREE tamper-proof seals that were all intact- so I think that puts to rest the idea that the courier messed with the sample.

And the fact that the sample was held in the couriers fridge for an extra day or whatever is only a mere technicality (one that allowed Braun to get off)- I heard a scientist on the radio today say that leaving a sample refrigerated for that long would only LOWER the PH level and not would not raise- certainly not to 20:1.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/76...owed-protocols
Gotta love all the Braun fanboys willing to look the other way. He got off on a technicality, I will still consider him a cheater. But whatever, its not like cheating is rare in baseball.

Braun needs to stop acting like he didn't test positive though, ugh. What a knob.

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03-01-2012, 01:36 AM
  #216
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Gotta love all the Braun fanboys willing to look the other way.
Always true in sports. A guy could pull out a gun in the middle of a game and shoot an opponent, and you'd still have some fans somewhere saying there was some good reason for it.

They'll say stuff like "What if two different things are passing by the sensor at a give time?" Uh ... the whole principle of GC is that two different things DON'T pass by the sensor at the same time. If such a thing could happen, then GC would be useless as an analytic tool. Which, speaking as someone who's worked in a research lab for a number of years, I can assure you is NOT useless. Just the opposite in fact, I'd say it's one of the most precise and reliable tools available in chemical analysis. I'd trust it about as much as I would a DNA test, which is to say pretty much a slam dunk.

Quote:
He got off on a technicality, I will still consider him a cheater.
Indeed. Three tamper proof seals intact, so it's safe to say the sample was not messed with. What do people think tamper proof seals are, anyway, just a piece of generic scotch tape? You can't just "fix" the one you broke to make it look like it was never opened. Nor can you just take the next seal out of the box and replace the one you took off.

Quote:
But whatever, its not like cheating is rare in baseball.
True, and I've always found it strange that people get so up in arms about steroids in baseball, yet they kind of turn a blind eye when it comes to football, a sport where a large percentage of players who spend time in the trenches have probably used the stuff. It's like, if a baseball player uses steroids, he's a cheating slimeball. But if a football player uses steroids, it's like, "sooo ... when do we get our lineman back?"

Quote:
Braun needs to stop acting like he didn't test positive though, ugh. What a knob.
Given the general reaction, I'd say not many people are buying his claim of innocence anyway, except for those who are inclined to believe in his innocence in the face of all evidence to the contrary short of a public confession from Braun himself.

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03-01-2012, 08:39 AM
  #217
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MLB said Braun had a testosterone level 3 times higher than ANY sample ever taken.
MLB didn't say that. Braun claimed the MLBPA told him that.

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03-01-2012, 09:29 AM
  #218
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This is fishy.

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03-01-2012, 06:29 PM
  #219
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The guy who collected his sample took it home and had it for 3 days. Who knows what he did with it. He could have copied the info from Braun's sticker and put it on a totally different sample. Without the evidence that it came from Braun and the fact that they didn't follow protocol, you have to assume he's innocent.

And I'm an A's fan, so, no, I'm not a "Braun fanboy".

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03-01-2012, 06:40 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
The guy who collected his sample took it home and had it for 3 days. Who knows what he did with it. He could have copied the info from Braun's sticker and put it on a totally different sample. Without the evidence that it came from Braun and the fact that they didn't follow protocol, you have to assume he's innocent.

And I'm an A's fan, so, no, I'm not a "Braun fanboy".
I'm gonna guess tamper proof seals are not that easy to copy.

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03-01-2012, 06:54 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
I'm gonna guess tamper proof seals are not that easy to copy.
Not one, but 3 (count 'em, 3) tamper proof seals.

Again, there is a difference between factually guilty and legally guilty. I feel Braun cheated because of the fact the 3 tamper proof seals on his sample were flawlessly intact (aka factually guilty). However, because of how long the sample was left with the guy and the lapse in protocol, I understand and accept why the suspension was lifted and why that test can;t be used against him for his suspension (aka why he is not legally guilty).

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03-02-2012, 12:37 PM
  #222
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I'm gonna guess tamper proof seals are not that easy to copy.
Probably not. But, who knows if the guy has access to seals and is able to put them on another container.

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03-02-2012, 03:51 PM
  #223
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Probably not. But, who knows if the guy has access to seals and is able to put them on another container.
Pretty sure the guy said he put them on immediately after collecting the sample, which is what you do. Why do you believe Braun and not the guy? What's the guy got to lose?

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03-02-2012, 07:24 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Pretty sure the guy said he put them on immediately after collecting the sample, which is what you do. Why do you believe Braun and not the guy? What's the guy got to lose?
Why don't people believe Braun? It's not like he just had to prove reasonable doubt.

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03-02-2012, 07:36 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Why don't people believe Braun? It's not like he just had to prove reasonable doubt.
Because it was his piss test?

He put his name on it and the 3 seals were not tampered with.

Is it reasonable to believe that some grand conspirator had another sample, did a double switch/messed with the sample, copied Braun's signature and the other 2 tamper proof seals OR is it reasonable to believe that Braun just simply failed the test but got let off the hook because of a technicality?

Seeing as you are presumably from Wisconsin, I expect you to recognize the former as more reasonable.

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