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Should the Ducks retire #9 for Paul Kariya

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Old
04-20-2012, 07:20 AM
  #126
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Instead sticking with the Ducks, he tried to reunite with Teemu, but neither had the opportunity or health to make anything happen with the Avs. I really became a full fledged Duck fan again, when Teemu came back.
It was widely believed that the Ducks were going to reunite the duo, hence why they wanted Kariya to take a lower salary so they could afford both. He could have easily reunited with Teemu in Anaheim but he chose to go to Colorado for barely a dime less than average league salary (which ensured he would be an UFA the next year) hoping he could pad his stats on a line with Sakic and Selanne to get a huge payout as an UFA.

And I don't know what you're on about with this honoring #s crap, if the franchise hold jersey retirements to a high enough standard then they'll never have issues with running out of jersey #s. I think the only reason you keep bringing it up is to let us know you think Kariya's # should be honored. Which it won't be because we're not the Leafs and we'll retire #s just like any other franchise.

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04-20-2012, 10:16 AM
  #127
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The only number that should go up in the rafters is Selanne's.
Wrong JSG is more than deserving

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04-20-2012, 10:45 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
It was widely believed that the Ducks were going to reunite the duo, hence why they wanted Kariya to take a lower salary so they could afford both. He could have easily reunited with Teemu in Anaheim but he chose to go to Colorado for barely a dime less than average league salary (which ensured he would be an UFA the next year) hoping he could pad his stats on a line with Sakic and Selanne to get a huge payout as an UFA.

And I don't know what you're on about with this honoring #s crap, if the franchise hold jersey retirements to a high enough standard then they'll never have issues with running out of jersey #s. I think the only reason you keep bringing it up is to let us know you think Kariya's # should be honored. Which it won't be because we're not the Leafs and we'll retire #s just like any other franchise.
Teemu didn't have to go to Colorado, and yet he chose to as well. Wonder why? The Ducks must've been in contact with him, and probably offered him a contract. Just to play with Paul? Got to wonder what was said between the two of them. Big pay CUTS, just to play together...other than with the Ducks.
Also kind of convenient that people seem to forget that the only reason Teemu is a Duck to begin with is Paul Kariya.

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04-20-2012, 01:03 PM
  #129
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I think you should all blame Teemu for Paul leaving Anaheim... It's quite ironic.. The guy you all love was the one that created the Kariya hate...


Selanne has every bit of blame as Kariya in this debacle. It was noted Kariya was being asked to take a discount to re-sign with the Ducks in their efforts to sign Selanne. Instead of Selanne signing with Ducks he goes to the Avalanche for less money than what the Ducks would have offered and convinces Kariya to go with him. I do believe it was Selanne's original intentions to come back to Anaheim and play with Paul however Selanne was ultimately swayed by Colorado's approach.

The Avalanche that season were basically trying to build a "super team" that year similar to what you see with the Miami Heat in basketball. Knowing that Selanne was a win first guy and at the time and his career in theory was running out they hatched a brilliant plan to create such a team. On paper it all seemed great. Colorado utilized Selanne to take care of Kariya.

People will argue and say how can it be a better opportunity? Ducks just came off the finals yadda yadda. A super team was supposed to be the easy road or even possibly the Gretzky Oiler dynasty. A clever plan that ultimately went wrong like most do....

So my question is why do we still hate Kariya? Oh yeah it's because that dirty finnish rat ******* that stole him from Anaheim... You know that Teemu Selanne guy we all LOVE! Paul's friendship with Selanne unfortunately outweighed all our Disney dreams.


Retire don't retire.... But Paul will always go down as one of the greatest Ducks to ever play. Life is about opportunity and forgiveness. People make mistakes and Kariya's biggest mistake was showing so much love to Selanne.


IRONY.

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04-20-2012, 01:29 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by airforceones25 View Post
I think you should all blame Teemu for Paul leaving Anaheim... It's quite ironic.. The guy you all love was the one that created the Kariya hate...


Selanne has every bit of blame as Kariya in this debacle. It was noted Kariya was being asked to take a discount to re-sign with the Ducks in their efforts to sign Selanne. Instead of Selanne signing with Ducks he goes to the Avalanche for less money than what the Ducks would have offered and convinces Kariya to go with him. I do believe it was Selanne's original intentions to come back to Anaheim and play with Paul however Selanne was ultimately swayed by Colorado's approach.

The Avalanche that season were basically trying to build a "super team" that year similar to what you see with the Miami Heat in basketball. Knowing that Selanne was a win first guy and at the time and his career in theory was running out they hatched a brilliant plan to create such a team. On paper it all seemed great. Colorado utilized Selanne to take care of Kariya.

People will argue and say how can it be a better opportunity? Ducks just came off the finals yadda yadda. A super team was supposed to be the easy road or even possibly the Gretzky Oiler dynasty. A clever plan that ultimately went wrong like most do....

So my question is why do we still hate Kariya? Oh yeah it's because that dirty finnish rat ******* that stole him from Anaheim... You know that Teemu Selanne guy we all LOVE! Paul's friendship with Selanne unfortunately outweighed all our Disney dreams.


Retire don't retire.... But Paul will always go down as one of the greatest Ducks to ever play. Life is about opportunity and forgiveness. People make mistakes and Kariya's biggest mistake was showing so much love to Selanne.


IRONY.
excepr teemu never made a public declaration like kariya did about winning a cup here.second teemu thought his career was almost done. on paper colorado presented the best option.

i dont get the undying love for kariya i really dont. plus we won a couple seasons after he left

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04-20-2012, 02:51 PM
  #131
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excepr teemu never made a public declaration like kariya did about winning a cup here.second teemu thought his career was almost done. on paper colorado presented the best option.

i dont get the undying love for kariya i really dont. plus we won a couple seasons after he left
It's not undying love for Kariya. I could careless if people like the guy. I just think it's quite hilarious how people can hate an individual over something so stupid.

I don't complain we won the cup. I'm quite happy we did. This isn't about that. This is about people degrading an individual regardless of everything he brought to this organization. People holding grudges and continually talking down an individual and trying to justify it when in fact their are many variables to the equation.

He hurt their feelings because he left. Get over it. Me always before you. Lol I don't care if it's best for you because it doesn't help me... That's what this is about. Players don't own fans ****.

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04-20-2012, 02:58 PM
  #132
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Fans are entitled to opinions.

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04-20-2012, 03:19 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by airforceones25 View Post
It's not undying love for Kariya. I could careless if people like the guy. I just think it's quite hilarious how people can hate an individual over something so stupid.

I don't complain we won the cup. I'm quite happy we did. This isn't about that. This is about people degrading an individual regardless of everything he brought to this organization. People holding grudges and continually talking down an individual and trying to justify it when in fact their are many variables to the equation.

He hurt their feelings because he left. Get over it. Me always before you. Lol I don't care if it's best for you because it doesn't help me... That's what this is about. Players don't own fans ****.
And when they blatantly display that attitude towards the fans, they generate the kind of feedback you see here. It isn't that he left, it's how he left. Big difference.

Let me give you a true life analogy. When Nolan Ryan left the Angels in 1980, you would be hard pressed to find a fan mad at him. He left for more money and a better deal. But the fans didn't blame him. They blamed management (Buzzie Bavasi...GM at the time). You know why? Because Ryan never spoke out of his ass about never leaving. You reap what you sow. To this day Anaheim fans love Ryan and many hate Kariya. Not hard to figure out why.

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04-20-2012, 03:57 PM
  #134
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Fans are entitled to opinions.
Rightfully so....
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
And when they blatantly display that attitude towards the fans, they generate the kind of feedback you see here. It isn't that he left, it's how he left. Big difference.

Let me give you a true life analogy. When Nolan Ryan left the Angels in 1980, you would be hard pressed to find a fan mad at him. He left for more money and a better deal. But the fans didn't blame him. They blamed management (Buzzie Bavasi...GM at the time). You know why? Because Ryan never spoke out of his ass about never leaving. You reap what you sow. To this day Anaheim fans love Ryan and many hate Kariya. Not hard to figure out why.
You feel hurt because he said he wouldn't leave and he did. I get it... It's not hard to understand. Crucifying him because you are holding on to a quote he said to justify it as viable is ludicrous. It's this sense of entitlement fans think Paul Kariya or any other player for the matter personally owe them something I can't understand.

As far as him saying I never want to leave and such... Let me give you an example. I never want to leave home. I want to live with mom and dad forever. 18 comes... Peace out i'm tired of your rules.. etc... Everyone says things they take back. Whoops! It's part of life..

Don't get me wrong I too was pissed he left in the fashion he did. Do I hate the guy? Absolutely not.. Can I accept what he brought to the Mighty Ducks? Hell yes! Would I like to see the organization honor him and pay tribute to all the good memories? Certainly. Will I forget the the manner in witch he left? Never. However, in a society where second chances and forgiveness are the norm I can accept the reality. The man made a mistake that was fueled by many factors and I can give him forgiveness.



......


If Justin Schultz leaves via FA we are going to here the same whining and moaning of fans saying..... He told the Ducks organization he would sign last year...... Now he's turning his back on the organization. Let's hate him now! Lol.

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04-20-2012, 04:14 PM
  #135
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I think the fact that Kariya is kind of a ****** doesn't help either.

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04-20-2012, 04:26 PM
  #136
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Rightfully so....


You feel hurt because he said he wouldn't leave and he did. I get it... It's not hard to understand. Crucifying him because you are holding on to a quote he said to justify it as viable is ludicrous. It's this sense of entitlement fans think Paul Kariya or any other player for the matter personally owe them something I can't understand.
Believe me, I'm not hurt by what any pro athlete does. I outgrew that long ago. It's a business and I understand that as well as anybody. But I do have a problem with anybody (athlete or not) who says things to you because they want you to like them but really doesn't mean what they say and ultimately only tries to use you. Those kinds of people are a-holes whether they are athletes or the guy who works next to you. Paul Kariya is one of them.

It was late at night when I posted that. It might have been a bit severe, but I said it so I'll stand behind it. He and Selanne were entertaining to watch back then, but so is the circus. I don't think the circus bear who rides the bike should have his number retired and I don't think PK should either. Feel free to disagree, you won't hurt my feelings.


Last edited by Johnny Caravella: 04-20-2012 at 05:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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04-20-2012, 08:05 PM
  #137
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I disagree.

I've heard all of the excuses, and that's all it is. Excuses. All the, "he lied to us" or "he broke his promise", and what not is not a good reason to hate. I completely understand why you want to hate him. The first love is always the hardest to get over.

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04-20-2012, 10:28 PM
  #138
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And when they blatantly display that attitude towards the fans, they generate the kind of feedback you see here. It isn't that he left, it's how he left. Big difference.

Let me give you a true life analogy. When Nolan Ryan left the Angels in 1980, you would be hard pressed to find a fan mad at him. He left for more money and a better deal. But the fans didn't blame him. They blamed management (Buzzie Bavasi...GM at the time). You know why? Because Ryan never spoke out of his ass about never leaving. You reap what you sow. To this day Anaheim fans love Ryan and many hate Kariya. Not hard to figure out why.

But what you all keep ignoring is the fact that Murray chose to NOT qualify him and then did not even offer him a contract before he signed with Colorado. I get why they wanted to pay him less, but why did Murray waste time in offering him a new contract? If Kariya was so important to the team, he should have been offered a contract immediately. Look at it from Kariya's side...first, he's told the team doesn't want to continue paying him what they're paying him, then they lag on offering him a new contract. Was he supposed to feel all giddy and want to re-sign under those circumstances? I blame Murray more than anyone for that situation.

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04-20-2012, 10:38 PM
  #139
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As someone who was elsewhere during the team's early years, it was Kariya that put the Ducks on the map, not Selanne. It was Kariya and Selanne, not Selanne and Kariya.

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04-20-2012, 10:49 PM
  #140
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As someone who was elsewhere during the team's early years, it was Kariya that put the Ducks on the map, not Selanne. It was Kariya and Selanne, not Selanne and Kariya.
But according to the Kariya haters, since he never won anything for them, putting them on the map is irrelevant.

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04-20-2012, 11:04 PM
  #141
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Well instead of bashing someone's opinion I'll just say I don't think it will just because management let Ryan have it.

Now whether or not his number should be retired is a different can of worms I don't want to be a part of.

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04-21-2012, 04:01 PM
  #142
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But what you all keep ignoring is the fact that Murray chose to NOT qualify him and then did not even offer him a contract before he signed with Colorado. I get why they wanted to pay him less, but why did Murray waste time in offering him a new contract? If Kariya was so important to the team, he should have been offered a contract immediately. Look at it from Kariya's side...first, he's told the team doesn't want to continue paying him what they're paying him, then they lag on offering him a new contract. Was he supposed to feel all giddy and want to re-sign under those circumstances? I blame Murray more than anyone for that situation.
Only half right. Yes, Murray did not qualify Kariya, which made him an UFA on July 1. Kariya knew this was a strong possibility after Murray talked to him prior to July 1, and Murray also knew it could be a possibility that he would not be able to re-sign Kariya. However, Kariya and Baizley refused to return any of Murray's calls on July 1, and would not give the Ducks the right of first refusal, meaning giving them the chance to meet any other offers before he signed with another team. This was totally within Kariya's rights, but from Murray's comments, Kariya gave Murray the impression that Kariya would be open to hearing offers from the Ducks.

IMO, the second Kariya knew Murray was not going to qualify him, he was out of Anaheim, which was what he wanted all along (why else would he refuse to sign more than 1 yr. contacts for the last few years before this?). Kariya signed with COL within hours, and he even admitted in an article about signing with COL that if negotiations fell though, Detroit was next on his list. So he had this all planned out (probably planned for a while, and not just figured out in the few hours after July 1) and was never going to give Anaheim a chance to re-sign him.

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04-21-2012, 04:23 PM
  #143
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But according to the Kariya haters, since he never won anything for them, putting them on the map is irrelevant.
Because it is irrelevant. Being the best part of a bad team isn't in itself worth memorializing. Stanton, CA is on the map. It's a dump. I bet they have a couple nice restaurants there, but I wouldn't put em in the restaurant hall of fame for it.

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04-22-2012, 04:33 AM
  #144
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As someone who was elsewhere during the team's early years, it was Kariya that put the Ducks on the map, not Selanne. It was Kariya and Selanne, not Selanne and Kariya.
Kariya never did anything without Selanne. Even in his breakout season in 95-96 he was "only" on pace for tied 15th in points and tied 12th in goals before Selanne joined the team while Selanne's pace dropped from 116pts pace in Winnipeg to 105pts pace in Anaheim.

The media just pimped Kariya because he was a good ol hyped up Canadian kid. After the 97-98 season everybody knew who the better player was.

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04-22-2012, 01:21 PM
  #145
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So the argument is that being able to put up top 20 points being the only player on a roster who deserved to actually be in the NHL (mild hyperbole) isn't impressive somehow, and that no longer being quite as good after a severe concussion somehow takes away from that even further. As a Chicago fan, in Chicago at the time, "everyone" was excited to watch Kariya play. Most of the people I knew also felt it was about time he left such an obviously poorly run organization as well. It is crystal clear many of the posters here despise him, it's also pretty crystal clear they are ignoring what an impact he made on the league, and how much more poorly they regard him than fans of the rest of the league do.

I wasn't here, I don't care, but anyone arguing his stats and impact weren't worth retiring his jersey over needs to shake their head. It's the off ice stuff that keeps him out of the rafters.

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04-22-2012, 05:01 PM
  #146
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So the argument is that being able to put up top 20 points being the only player on a roster who deserved to actually be in the NHL (mild hyperbole) isn't impressive somehow, and that no longer being quite as good after a severe concussion somehow takes away from that even further.
No, you didn't understand the 97-98 reference. Kariya alone was top20 points. Selanne in 97-98 showed that he could lead the league in points and goals playing alone. He led the league in both categories until the olympics in which he got injured, but still finished 1st in goals and 8th in points in just 73gp. You could argue that the team in 95-96 was deeper than the one in 97-98. Oh and Selanne lead the olympics in scoring that year too with just 5 games played. That's what I meant with "After the 97-98 season everybody knew who the better player was."

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04-22-2012, 09:52 PM
  #147
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Because it is irrelevant. Being the best part of a bad team isn't in itself worth memorializing. Stanton, CA is on the map. It's a dump. I bet they have a couple nice restaurants there, but I wouldn't put em in the restaurant hall of fame for it.
First off, he wasn't just the best of a bad team...he was one of the best in the entire NHL.

Secondly, your analogy is a bit mixed up. Comparing Stanton, CA to the Mighty Ducks is correct...however, then you go on to compare the Ducks Hall of Fame to the Restaurant Hall of Fame, which is an incorrect analogy. The Restaurant Hall of Fame would be compared to the NHL Hall of Fame given the analogy you're making and the Duck Hall of Fame would then be compared to the 'Stanton' Restaurant Hall of Fame. So, given the correct analogies, yes, the nice restaurant in Stanton might indeed make the 'Stanton' Restaurant Hall of Fame if it is recognized as one of their best restaurants and biggest draws in the city, much the same way that Kariya was one of the best and one of their biggest draws on the team for all those years.

Now, because I never mentioned anything about a Hall of Fame, I'll bring it back to the level of retiring his jersey, since that's what this is about. Kariya was one of the only reasons anybody even watched the Ducks or became a fan of the Ducks and was one of the biggest names in hockey for several years. Because he was on terrible teams and didn't have much support around him, shouldn't dismiss his legacy within the organization. I realize it's your right to have that opinion, but the arguments being thrown around are really stemming from hate from him leaving the team more than anything, which is a shame, because he meant so much to the organization and deserves much better recognition for it.

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04-22-2012, 10:09 PM
  #148
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Only half right. Yes, Murray did not qualify Kariya, which made him an UFA on July 1. Kariya knew this was a strong possibility after Murray talked to him prior to July 1, and Murray also knew it could be a possibility that he would not be able to re-sign Kariya. However, Kariya and Baizley refused to return any of Murray's calls on July 1, and would not give the Ducks the right of first refusal, meaning giving them the chance to meet any other offers before he signed with another team. This was totally within Kariya's rights, but from Murray's comments, Kariya gave Murray the impression that Kariya would be open to hearing offers from the Ducks.

IMO, the second Kariya knew Murray was not going to qualify him, he was out of Anaheim, which was what he wanted all along (why else would he refuse to sign more than 1 yr. contacts for the last few years before this?). Kariya signed with COL within hours, and he even admitted in an article about signing with COL that if negotiations fell though, Detroit was next on his list. So he had this all planned out (probably planned for a while, and not just figured out in the few hours after July 1) and was never going to give Anaheim a chance to re-sign him.
I've never read anything that says what you are saying above...Can you provide a link? Also, Kariya did not sign with Colorado within hours...if I recall correctly, he signed on July 3 and Free Agency began on July 1.

As for your opinion that you're mentioning...that's all just speculation on your part. You can't fault the guy for what you 'think' lead to his decisions. I posted a link to an article last year in this same thread which basically quotes Murray as stating that he was not going to qualify Kariya and Kariya's agent warning him that if he didn't that Kariya would then explore other options. He also admitted that Kariya even called and told him just before Free Agency started that if he didn't qualify him, he would explore other options. Murray chose to take the gamble and then get upset when Kariya went with another option, as he had been warned may indeed happen. Why then, is Kariya the one that gets all the blame? It's silly...

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04-23-2012, 12:23 AM
  #149
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I've never read anything that says what you are saying above...Can you provide a link? Also, Kariya did not sign with Colorado within hours...if I recall correctly, he signed on July 3 and Free Agency began on July 1.
If you look back at articles from then, you'll see that Kariya himself said he never gave Murray a chance to make an offer, that he and Teemu decided to make the package offer to Colorado right off the bat. He never even considered returning to the Ducks, and that's confirmed by his own story.

So yeah, that kind of makes him a rat if he led the Ducks into thinking he'd at least consider an offer. OTOH, he did the Ducks a favor, because at $10 mil a year he simply wasn't worth it ... he was paid an MVP level salary, but hadn't played at an MVP level in about 5 years. It sucked at the time, but in the long run I doubt the Ducks ever win a Cup if they continued to hitch their wagon to Kariya. He simply wasn't all that good at that point, yet his huge salary kept them from improving the team.

Dude was one of the most overpaid players in the league, and he knew it. As evidenced by the fact that he never got remotely close to $10 mil a year ever again.

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04-23-2012, 12:24 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
So the argument is that being able to put up top 20 points being the only player on a roster who deserved to actually be in the NHL (mild hyperbole) isn't impressive somehow, and that no longer being quite as good after a severe concussion somehow takes away from that even further. As a Chicago fan, in Chicago at the time, "everyone" was excited to watch Kariya play. Most of the people I knew also felt it was about time he left such an obviously poorly run organization as well. It is crystal clear many of the posters here despise him, it's also pretty crystal clear they are ignoring what an impact he made on the league, and how much more poorly they regard him than fans of the rest of the league do.

I wasn't here, I don't care, but anyone arguing his stats and impact weren't worth retiring his jersey over needs to shake their head. It's the off ice stuff that keeps him out of the rafters.
pretty much my sentiment. I was a fan of the mickey mouse franchise as soon as Teemu got traded from the Jets, I trailed off following the Ducks quite a bit when Teemu got traded... and actually the whole NHL in general. That trade made absolutely zero sense. After that trade, I really was ticked off at the Ducks for trading Teemu. I was like 11 or 12 when Teemu got traded from the Ducks, so I really didn't know much about the inner workings of the Ducks by the time Kariya left for the AVs, but as far as I saw it, Teemu and Paul were gunna play together again, so that's awesome... (Ducks should have just kept Teemu though, so he could have played with Paul that whole time)

Considering ownership traded Teemu to our biggest rival, I don't care if Paul bailed on the new management... the Ducks made some boneheaded moves in the past, so I don't blame Paul for making a bit of one himself.

His Stats, and legacy are reason enough to justify retiring his jersey... the fact that we was the first Anaheim Duck to be drafted, and longest serving captain... well, it just gets ridiculous at that point if you don't think he should get his number retired or honoured.

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