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Should the Ducks retire #9 for Paul Kariya

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Old
04-22-2012, 11:26 PM
  #151
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It sucked at the time, but in the long run I doubt the Ducks ever win a Cup if they continued to hitch their wagon to Kariya. He simply wasn't all that good at that point, yet his huge salary kept them from improving the team.

Dude was one of the most overpaid players in the league, and he knew it. As evidenced by the fact that he never got remotely close to $10 mil a year ever again.

pretty much. Considering this is probably very much the case... (Kariya stays, Anaheim might not win Cup) I just can't get over how much he is still loathed by some of us Ducks fans.

still one of my all time favourites, always will be.

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04-22-2012, 11:42 PM
  #152
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pretty much. Considering this is probably very much the case... (Kariya stays, Anaheim might not win Cup) I just can't get over how much he is still loathed by some of us Ducks fans.
The end result of becoming a better team in the long run, does not change the fact that his behavior was pretty crappy towards a team that had more than rewarded him for his play for all those years.

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still one of my all time favourites, always will be.
He stopped being one of my favorites when I saw him give less than MVP efforts despite gladly cashing in his MVP level paychecks.

He stopped going into any sort of traffic, and gave token efforts on defense. That's fine for protecting himself and prolonging his career ... but it also makes him fair game for criticism. IMO, if you're being paid like an MVP, but no longer can play the game you need to play without risking your long-term health, you need to do one of two things: retire, or take a pay cut.

Murray may have gotten burned, but at least he had the balls to make the right choice, which was to risk Kariya walking rather than continuing to severely overpay him. Our previous GMs were too chicken to do that.

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04-22-2012, 11:50 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
If you look back at articles from then, you'll see that Kariya himself said he never gave Murray a chance to make an offer, that he and Teemu decided to make the package offer to Colorado right off the bat. He never even considered returning to the Ducks, and that's confirmed by his own story.

So yeah, that kind of makes him a rat if he led the Ducks into thinking he'd at least consider an offer.
OTOH, he did the Ducks a favor, because at $10 mil a year he simply wasn't worth it ... he was paid an MVP level salary, but hadn't played at an MVP level in about 5 years. It sucked at the time, but in the long run I doubt the Ducks ever win a Cup if they continued to hitch their wagon to Kariya. He simply wasn't all that good at that point, yet his huge salary kept them from improving the team.

Dude was one of the most overpaid players in the league, and he knew it. As evidenced by the fact that he never got remotely close to $10 mil a year ever again.
Wait...so you're saying Kariya is a rat for not giving Murray a chance to counter offer him, yet there's not one article that any of you can link to that quotes Kariya or Murray as saying Kariya will give the Ducks a chance to counter before signing elsewhere? I've linked to an article where Murray, himself, says he was warned by both Kariya and his agent that he will explore other options if they don't qualify him and nowhere in that article does Murray say anything about being promised the opportunity to counter offer. All it says was that he was disappointed that he wasn't given the opportunity...that's a big difference than Kariya giving his word. Kariya was told he wasn't going to be qualified, then wasn't given a new offer, so blame him if you will, but Murray failed to do anything before Colorado signed him and he could have done it on July 1, July 2, or July 3. I don't buy the whole 'rat' argument until someone can link me to quotes, rather than just say they've read somewhere but can't back it up. Sorry, but I was pissed at the time he left, but I also have read tons of articles about the situation and everything I read that has actual quotes from both Kariya and Murray point towards Kariya being straight forth with Murray and Murray simply failing to be on the ball with things.

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04-22-2012, 11:58 PM
  #154
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How is this thread still alive? Ryan is wearing 9! That alone should indicate what this organization plans to do with the number. That alone should be /thread.

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04-23-2012, 12:09 AM
  #155
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How is this thread still alive? Ryan is wearing 9! That alone should indicate what this organization plans to do with the number. That alone should be /thread.
Ryan was and may still well be on the trading block. That should tell you that the issue is far from settled.

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04-23-2012, 12:19 AM
  #156
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I've never read anything that says what you are saying above...Can you provide a link? Also, Kariya did not sign with Colorado within hours...if I recall correctly, he signed on July 3 and Free Agency began on July 1.
You are correct about the date they announced the signing, but they were in contact w/ Lacroix (who said in the PC that the negotiations were over a 36 hours) before that. In re: to Kariya not giving the Ducks a chance to counter offer, this is from Randy Youngman's 8/20/10 mailbag http://www.ocregister.com/articles/k...ray-ducks.html
"But Murray also conceded that Kariya's agent, Don Baizley, warned the GM his client would at least explore his options if Kariya was not qualified. A few days later on June 29, Kariya called Murray at a hotel in Canada and informed him, "Bryan, if you don't qualify me, I think I should look around." When Kariya and Selanne signed with Colorado on July 3, Murray was upset that he didn't get a chance to make a counter-offer, as Baizley had promised he would.

From an 8/7/10 Youngman column:http://www.ocregister.com/articles/k...s-selanne.html
"At the time, then-Ducks GM Bryan Murray said he felt misled, and Ducks fans felt so betrayed that they have booed Kariya ever since."

I have to see if I can find the interview w/ Kariya in either the Denver Post or Rocky Mountain News that quoted him about going to DET if the COL negotiations fell through. 2003 articles are not all available on the web.

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As for your opinion that you're mentioning...that's all just speculation on your part. You can't fault silly...
Of course my opinion is speculation; most opinions involve some speculation. You choose to side with a player who twice held out, was never very fan friendly, and talked a good talk in an interview and when the cameras were on. I choose to believe a well-respected GM.

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04-23-2012, 12:56 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by la patineuse View Post
You are correct about the date they announced the signing, but they were in contact w/ Lacroix (who said in the PC that the negotiations were over a 36 hours) before that. In re: to Kariya not giving the Ducks a chance to counter offer, this is from Randy Youngman's 8/20/10 mailbag http://www.ocregister.com/articles/k...ray-ducks.html
"But Murray also conceded that Kariya's agent, Don Baizley, warned the GM his client would at least explore his options if Kariya was not qualified. A few days later on June 29, Kariya called Murray at a hotel in Canada and informed him, "Bryan, if you don't qualify me, I think I should look around." When Kariya and Selanne signed with Colorado on July 3, Murray was upset that he didn't get a chance to make a counter-offer, as Baizley had promised he would.

From an 8/7/10 Youngman column:http://www.ocregister.com/articles/k...s-selanne.html
"At the time, then-Ducks GM Bryan Murray said he felt misled, and Ducks fans felt so betrayed that they have booed Kariya ever since."

I have to see if I can find the interview w/ Kariya in either the Denver Post or Rocky Mountain News that quoted him about going to DET if the COL negotiations fell through. 2003 articles are not all available on the web.



Of course my opinion is speculation; most opinions involve some speculation. You choose to side with a player who twice held out, was never very fan friendly, and talked a good talk in an interview and when the cameras were on. I choose to believe a well-respected GM.
That was the same article that I linked last year in this thread and as you bolded, still doesn't show any lies or misleading out of Kariya's mouth. When Murray himself is only quoted as saying that Kariya told him he'd explore other options, but says nothing about giving the team a chance to counter, I will take the agent's quote as being words from the agent and not from Kariya. So all you've shown me is that his agent is a liar, or 'rat' as I keep seeing in this thread when describing Kariya...but nowhere do I see where Kariya is quoted as misleading the Ducks.

Also, I've seen it mentioned that people say he lied when he said something about winning a cup next year, after losing in the finals...yet he said that without the knowledge that the Ducks would not be qualifying him. The non-qualifying offer, as I've mentioned before, changes everything. Imagine yourself, with your employer and you're coming up on your annual review and you're expecting to make the same money or perhaps even get a raise and then you're told, "sorry, but we're going to have to reduce your salary, but rest assured, we'd love to have you back. We'd like to take some of the money we've been giving you and use it to sign someone else, perhaps even your buddy." If you can tell me that being faced with that type of scenario that you wouldn't think twice about leaving the organization (Assuming you could go anywhere you'd like to work), then kudos to you for overlooking what could be considered a slap in your face.

In any case, I'd still like to see a quote where Kariya's actually lied or mislead the Ducks, because reading all of the articles I have, I've never once seen a quote by Kariya or Murray, for that matter, say that Kariya lied or mislead them.

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04-23-2012, 01:06 AM
  #158
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It's not undying love for Kariya. I could careless if people like the guy. I just think it's quite hilarious how people can hate an individual over something so stupid.

I don't complain we won the cup. I'm quite happy we did. This isn't about that. This is about people degrading an individual regardless of everything he brought to this organization. People holding grudges and continually talking down an individual and trying to justify it when in fact their are many variables to the equation.

He hurt their feelings because he left. Get over it. Me always before you. Lol I don't care if it's best for you because it doesn't help me... That's what this is about. Players don't own fans ****.
His image and attitude were part of his time here as well. No one denies he had one of the better Duck careers, but that's not everything. Do I think people exagerate? Yes, but some of it is justified and some isn't.

This is not just about the way he left. There were countless other times where his attitude was terrible (many are mentioned in other posts in this thread). The way he left was not good. Regardless of your own personal opinion, there's no question that he left the majority of the fanbase on bad terms. That's the bottom line IMO. You don't retire a guys jersey who isn't liked by most of the fanbase. Personally I don't hate the guy, but I definitely rooted against every team he played on (do the same thing for Heatley now). I was in favor of him returning this past offseason (under a few circumstances), but I don't care much for the guy.

Also, I don't believe that every should just "get over it" because you were able to. I would say that the majority of the fanbase dislikes him, so they could argue that you shouldn't have got over it. Oh well, it doesn't matter really. If he would have lead us to the cup or some deep playoff run, then I may have personally felt different, but IMO the negative image associated with him with most Duck fans makes the decision easy, his number shouldn't be retired.

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04-23-2012, 01:06 AM
  #159
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I could live with his numbers up in the HC rafters


... but if this will happen before Teemu - i`ll be pissed as hell.
I think it is fairly safe to assume that Teemu will be the first one to be lifted up there. Number 8 has had a career where every team in the NHL would retire his number if he played elsewhere.

About the Kariya. I'd say no. Sadly but truth is he left the team on so bad terms that some of the fans will never forgive him. He was amazing for the mighty ducks tough...

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04-23-2012, 01:14 AM
  #160
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In any case, I'd still like to see a quote where Kariya's actually lied or mislead the Ducks, because reading all of the articles I have, I've never once seen a quote by Kariya or Murray, for that matter, say that Kariya lied or mislead them.
Youngman says he reviewed his transcripts of his interviews with Kariya and Murray. WhAt he wrote may not have been a direct quote from Murray, but obviously he was conveying what he has recorded, otherwise he would'n't have been so specific about what Murray relayed to him. The actual October 2003 OCR article with Murray is not available in full, but it was discussed here at great length on this message board. Youngman would not have written that Murray was upset or that Murray felt he was mislead by Kariya if these sentiments weren't included in some form in his transcripts.

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04-23-2012, 01:20 AM
  #161
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What is it about some people that they just can't let others have an opinion different than theirs? Does trying to put down those who don't agree with you make your opinion more valid? (I'll answer that for you. No, it doesn't.) Some of you really need to grow up.

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04-23-2012, 01:28 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
That was the same article that I linked last year in this thread and as you bolded, still doesn't show any lies or misleading out of Kariya's mouth. When Murray himself is only quoted as saying that Kariya told him he'd explore other options, but says nothing about giving the team a chance to counter, I will take the agent's quote as being words from the agent and not from Kariya. So all you've shown me is that his agent is a liar, or 'rat' as I keep seeing in this thread when describing Kariya...but nowhere do I see where Kariya is quoted as misleading the Ducks.

Also, I've seen it mentioned that people say he lied when he said something about winning a cup next year, after losing in the finals...yet he said that without the knowledge that the Ducks would not be qualifying him. The non-qualifying offer, as I've mentioned before, changes everything. Imagine yourself, with your employer and you're coming up on your annual review and you're expecting to make the same money or perhaps even get a raise and then you're told, "sorry, but we're going to have to reduce your salary, but rest assured, we'd love to have you back. We'd like to take some of the money we've been giving you and use it to sign someone else, perhaps even your buddy." If you can tell me that being faced with that type of scenario that you wouldn't think twice about leaving the organization (Assuming you could go anywhere you'd like to work), then kudos to you for overlooking what could be considered a slap in your face.

In any case, I'd still like to see a quote where Kariya's actually lied or mislead the Ducks, because reading all of the articles I have, I've never once seen a quote by Kariya or Murray, for that matter, say that Kariya lied or mislead them.
That's a terrible example. You forgot the fact that your employer's company was doing terribly and the only way to improve the company was to lower your salary somewhat, but at the same time, they'd still offer you a higher salary then all of their competitors.

You can call that a slap in the face all you want, but its common sense that the only way to improve the team was by reducing his salary. I think it's pretty simple really. He left the team who was just one win away from a stanley cup title and who he had reassured that he was committed to leading for a much lower salary.

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04-23-2012, 01:53 AM
  #163
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What is it about some people that they just can't let others have an opinion different than theirs? Does trying to put down those who don't agree with you make your opinion more valid? (I'll answer that for you. No, it doesn't.) Some of you really need to grow up.
Who exactly are you referring to? If you're referring to me, then I'd like to see where I've put someone down for their opinion. Asking someone to post quotes from either Kariya or Murray, showing where Kariya lied or could be considered a rat seems more then reasonable considering the basis of the thread and how people are throwing out adjectives such as liar and rat. Perhaps, if I could see some proof of him being a liar or rat, I might just agree. However, seeing as how nobody has posted anything as such, then I find it awfully difficult to share in that opinion. I'm basing my opinion on the facts at hand, rather the the emotion of having been upset when he left the team.

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04-23-2012, 01:53 AM
  #164
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I dont think so, it was in response to a guy who asked whether he would change his number because it could possibly be retired soon. Seems like he was told that its his number and Kariya wont be recognized.
That sound a bit odd, don't you think? Hockey players usually seem to be pretty humble. (I know, they just seem to do so cause the fans) They don't usually make bold statements like those even if it would be obvious. Bobby Ryan is great player, but so was Kariya in the late 90's. I would go and say that he was miles better than Ryan. I also would say that Bobby Ryan knows how most people feel. Kariya is one of the most talented players to wear #9 and somehow i don't see Ryan making a public statement how Kariya will never be retired in Anaheim. But that is just me.

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04-23-2012, 01:58 AM
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That's a terrible example. You forgot the fact that your employer's company was doing terribly and the only way to improve the company was to lower your salary somewhat, but at the same time, they'd still offer you a higher salary then all of their competitors.

You can call that a slap in the face all you want, but its common sense that the only way to improve the team was by reducing his salary. I think it's pretty simple really. He left the team who was just one win away from a stanley cup title and who he had reassured that he was committed to leading for a much lower salary.
You're saying I forgot to mention that the company was doing terribly, but then in the very next paragraph you contradict yourself by saying that same company was 1 win away from a Stanley Cup. Based on that, the company was doing pretty well, as they came in 2nd overall.

As for the part in red, please show me where Kariya said he was committed to leading the Ducks at a much lower salary. I'll wait while you pull up the article...

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04-23-2012, 02:05 AM
  #166
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Youngman says he reviewed his transcripts of his interviews with Kariya and Murray. WhAt he wrote may not have been a direct quote from Murray, but obviously he was conveying what he has recorded, otherwise he would'n't have been so specific about what Murray relayed to him. The actual October 2003 OCR article with Murray is not available in full, but it was discussed here at great length on this message board. Youngman would not have written that Murray was upset or that Murray felt he was mislead by Kariya if these sentiments weren't included in some form in his transcripts.
The article clearly says that it was Kariya's agent and not Kariya that told him he would get a chance to counter. There's nothing wrong with the article, as it says Murray is upset and felt mislead...only the misleading came from the agent according to the article. Why would Youngman choose to mention the agent as being the one who told Murray he would get a chance to counter, if in fact, it was Kariya who said it? That doesn't make any sense. I wasn't on these boards when the incident happened, obviously, but I've been a die-hard Duck fan for many years and long before the incident took place. I read everything I could find back when the incident occured, because Kariya was my favorite player and I was pissed at him for leaving at the time. However, once I started reading into it and seeing that it was Murray who didn't offer him and nowhere did I see any lies or misleadings from Kariya, I changed my stance on it and couldn't really blame the guy for leaving.

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04-23-2012, 02:06 AM
  #167
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If we can't honor him by retiring his number. Let us honor him by remembering what he did on the ice. Man was the kid quick.

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04-23-2012, 02:15 AM
  #168
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You're saying I forgot to mention that the company was doing terribly, but then in the very next paragraph you contradict yourself by saying that same company was 1 win away from a Stanley Cup. Based on that, the company was doing pretty well, as they came in 2nd overall.

As for the part in red, please show me where Kariya said he was committed to leading the Ducks at a much lower salary. I'll wait while you pull up the article...
That run (thanks completely to Jiggy) showed the team that it could win, but NO ONE is stupid enough to think Jiggy could replicate that run. The team needed more help. Previous and following seasons proved that. However, bailing on your team for a "contender" after just reaching game 7 of the stanley cup finals is stupid.

So you're implying that he was willing to play for another team at a lower salary, but not the Ducks... That makes him a whole lot better... So much for the loyalty. How does that make him any better. He's been quoted several times commiting himself to the Ducks. Yet, you're implying that it's ok for him to do that only if we pay him more then any other team will? Give me a break. The guy mislead the Ducks, and if his reasoning for not re-signing is because we didn't give him 10 million a year again, he's even more less deserving of a ring then I thought. You aren't loyal to a team in anyway if you won't sign with them for the same thing you signed with another team. It's that simple.

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04-23-2012, 02:23 AM
  #169
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The article clearly says that it was Kariya's agent and not Kariya that told him he would get a chance to counter. There's nothing wrong with the article, as it says Murray is upset and felt mislead...only the misleading came from the agent according to the article. Why would Youngman choose to mention the agent as being the one who told Murray he would get a chance to counter, if in fact, it was Kariya who said it? That doesn't make any sense. I wasn't on these boards when the incident happened, obviously, but I've been a die-hard Duck fan for many years and long before the incident took place. I read everything I could find back when the incident occured, because Kariya was my favorite player and I was pissed at him for leaving at the time. However, once I started reading into it and seeing that it was Murray who didn't offer him and nowhere did I see any lies or misleadings from Kariya, I changed my stance on it and couldn't really blame the guy for leaving.
You can't blame Kariya because Murray didn't qualify him? Seriously? If the leader of the franchise says he's commited to building a winner, you'd think he'd try and sign with the club he was "loyal" to. Instead he signed for a much lower salary with a different team right at the start of FA. I don't see how it's not obvious that he wanted out. In negotiations it takes two parts to reach an agreement. You don't want to come back if you leave a few hours into free agency for a ridiculously low salary.

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04-23-2012, 02:28 AM
  #170
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That run (thanks completely to Jiggy) showed the team that it could win, but NO ONE is stupid enough to think Jiggy could replicate that run. The team needed more help. Previous and following seasons proved that. However, bailing on your team for a "contender" after just reaching game 7 of the stanley cup finals is stupid.

So you're implying that he was willing to play for another team at a lower salary, but not the Ducks... That makes him a whole lot better... So much for the loyalty. How does that make him any better. He's been quoted several times commiting himself to the Ducks. Yet, you're implying that it's ok for him to do that only if we pay him more then any other team will? Give me a break. The guy mislead the Ducks, and if his reasoning for not re-signing is because we didn't give him 10 million a year again, he's even more less deserving of a ring then I thought. You aren't loyal to a team in anyway if you won't sign with them for the same thing you signed with another team. It's that simple.
I can understand the loyalty argument and don't blame you for feeling like he let the team down and the fans...however, that's different from being a rat or liar. And for the record, I understand your stance about loyalty, but for me, when Murray chose to not qualify him, loyalty went out the window at that point. Loyalty is a two way street. If anything, at the very least, Murray should have made an offer before July 3 if he was so committed to Kariya...same can be asked, where's the loyalty from Murray in that situation? I digress, however, as we do not see eye to eye on it and that's perfectly fine. That's what a forum is all about, people discussing their opinions. No hard feelings from me...

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04-23-2012, 02:30 AM
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You can't blame Kariya because Murray didn't qualify him? Seriously? If the leader of the franchise says he's commited to building a winner, you'd think he'd try and sign with the club he was "loyal" to. Instead he signed for a much lower salary with a different team right at the start of FA. I don't see how it's not obvious that he wanted out. In negotiations it takes two parts to reach an agreement. You don't want to come back if you leave a few hours into free agency for a ridiculously low salary.
I've already responded to this in another post...It was not a few hours after free agency began. The Ducks had July 1, July 2, and July 3 to offer him and didn't. But yeah, Kariya was supposed to feel so loved by the organization after not being qualified and not being tendered and offer, right?

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04-23-2012, 02:57 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
I've already responded to this in another post...It was not a few hours after free agency began. The Ducks had July 1, July 2, and July 3 to offer him and didn't. But yeah, Kariya was supposed to feel so loved by the organization after not being qualified and not being tendered and offer, right?
you don't think 3 days was quick?

give your employer less than 2 weeks, some want a month, and they are gonna ***** about you to whoever they can.

leave in 3 days for less money, when it was more money that you were holding out for to begin with... how can you not see that as a slap to the face of the team and the fans he said he wanted to play for?

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04-23-2012, 02:58 AM
  #173
Kalvinators
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Ryan was and may still well be on the trading block. That should tell you that the issue is far from settled.
He definately was not when he got that number.

And, even Toskala who was obvious choice of letting go/trade, was not able to take #35.

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04-23-2012, 03:12 AM
  #174
Crazy8oooo
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Originally Posted by gratefulyours View Post
you don't think 3 days was quick?

give your employer less than 2 weeks, some want a month, and they are gonna ***** about you to whoever they can.

leave in 3 days for less money, when it was more money that you were holding out for to begin with... how can you not see that as a slap to the face of the team and the fans he said he wanted to play for?
Sure, 3 days is quick, but you can't compare that to giving an employer a 2-week notice or a month in some cases, as you mentioned. The Ducks, or Murray to be more specific, made Kariya a non-employee when he chose not to qualify him. From that point on, Kariya no longer owed it to the Duck organization to give them a day, a week, 2 weeks, etc...How is it so difficult for some of you to see past the anger of him leaving and not at least admit that Murray was much to blame in the situation? It was Murray's decision to make him a Free Agent, despite Kariya warning him that he would explore other options. The fact that Kariya warned him should have lit a fire under Murray to come back with a new offer as soon as Free agency started, which is why I don't think 3 days should be a considering factor in blaming Kariya.

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04-23-2012, 05:35 AM
  #175
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by Crazy8oooo View Post
That was the same article that I linked last year in this thread and as you bolded, still doesn't show any lies or misleading out of Kariya's mouth. When Murray himself is only quoted as saying that Kariya told him he'd explore other options, but says nothing about giving the team a chance to counter, I will take the agent's quote as being words from the agent and not from Kariya. So all you've shown me is that his agent is a liar, or 'rat' as I keep seeing in this thread when describing Kariya...but nowhere do I see where Kariya is quoted as misleading the Ducks.

Also, I've seen it mentioned that people say he lied when he said something about winning a cup next year, after losing in the finals...yet he said that without the knowledge that the Ducks would not be qualifying him. The non-qualifying offer, as I've mentioned before, changes everything. Imagine yourself, with your employer and you're coming up on your annual review and you're expecting to make the same money or perhaps even get a raise and then you're told, "sorry, but we're going to have to reduce your salary, but rest assured, we'd love to have you back. We'd like to take some of the money we've been giving you and use it to sign someone else, perhaps even your buddy." If you can tell me that being faced with that type of scenario that you wouldn't think twice about leaving the organization (Assuming you could go anywhere you'd like to work), then kudos to you for overlooking what could be considered a slap in your face.

In any case, I'd still like to see a quote where Kariya's actually lied or mislead the Ducks, because reading all of the articles I have, I've never once seen a quote by Kariya or Murray, for that matter, say that Kariya lied or mislead them.
Well, actually he should have taken a paycut. He was no longer worth 10million$. So he, as everybody else, has to face reality and accept the fact that he is no longer worth the money he was having. No big deal.

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