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Who is the best Canuck in history?

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:31 AM
  #101
Youreallygotme
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Originally Posted by Henrik2Daniel View Post
This fanbase doesn't deserve the Sedins.
This times a million. Sedins are the best Canucks for me, and it's tied between them, any difference is so marginal. Back to back Art Ross, A Hart and Lindsay, SCF appearance, they've won several playoff rounds and they're classy on and off the ice. Yet many people consider Kesler to be our best player . And somehow more clutch??? How the Heck is that?

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12-14-2011, 11:35 AM
  #102
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With respect to Bure - it absolutely broke my heart when he demanded a trade and was subsequently dealt. I didn't really understand all the behind the scenes workings like I do now, so I held a lot of anger towards him at the time. But looking back on it - and also seeing the other FUBARs our management made around that time - it's hard not to sympathize with Bure's desire to get the hell out of dodge. Ignoring the fact that he really didn't like the spotlight to begin with (making a fishbowl atmosphere like Vancouver a very difficult place for him to play), the hijinx and shennanigans pulled on him by the Canucks' management team was absolutely preposterous. Can you imagine if Gillis and Aquilini treated the Twins and Kesler the way Quinn, McPhee, etc. treated Bure at the time?

I can tell you one thing, it would have made getting guys like Hamhuis in free agency an absolute pipe dream. The culture and management of this team has come a long, long way.

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Old
12-14-2011, 12:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
Feels that way sometimes. Arguably the two most talented players to ever play for the team, inarguably the first two players to win some meaningful NHL hardware, two guys that got us as close to a Cup as anyone else in this franchise has, and amazing people off the ice who have put up with an unheard of amount of abuse from their own fanbase (it was Canuck fans that first called them "the Sisters").

They're not perfect, but God damn, I think they will personify "the best Canuck in history" in every sense of the word by the time they retire.
Very well put. They didn't light the world on fire in their first few years, but how anyone can say that these guys are anything less then world class is beyond me. They have never whined about the excessive abuse they take, (lets face it, they have had physical abuse way beyond anything Lemieux Gretzky Yzerman ever had) and the officiating in the finals last year was a joke. This is where I would love to have Tiger Williams back, he would have skated in from the BLue line and destroyed Marchand and Chara for the **** they pulled.

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Old
12-14-2011, 01:48 PM
  #104
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I think if one read the articles from Wetcoaster and uses an ounce of common sense, they'll see that Bure tried getting out of Vancouver, before ever getting to Vancouver - It's all there. If the Canucks didn't do what they did and Bure got his way, Bure would never have been a canuck - he'd have become a Red Wing, KIng or Ranger - guaranteed.

Throughout Bure's time here, we had different Coaches, different GM's and even different owners and yet the dude simply wanted nothing to do with the canucks. There was nothing inappropriate going on, no FUBAR's, nothing! We should thank the Canucks management for trying as hard as they did with that ingrate.

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12-14-2011, 02:31 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
vancouver as second tier city not worthy of bure's talents? i think at a certain point, you have to look at this as your own inferiority complex and your propensity to take things that aren't meant to be slights as slights, and not anything bure said or did. i mean this in a general sense, not just you specifically.

which is to say, i also wonder, for those who are still mad at bure for things he may or may not have said or done, is this generational? i feel like those people who took bure's departure as an indictment of this city are by and large old enough to have internalized vancouver's "second city" status and were probably born no later than the late 70s.

those of us for whom expo '86 and everything that came after are some of our earliest memories, i don't think we hold that grudge, nor do we carry that inferiority complex vis-a-vis toronto or seattle or anywhere else.



right?
No, there comes a time when people like me put aside being a fan for a moment, connect the dots and come to the obvious conclusion that for whatever reason (and I have my theories) Bure never wanted to play in Vancouver - never! No matter who the management or ownership was, no matter how much money was making - he wanted out. The whole money owing during the lock-out was a red herring that seems good enough for some fans and it gave him some validity with you guys, but the fact is, he was 3rd highest behind only Gretzky and Lemieux (and Lemieux was never actually paid - until he took legal action). Some fans just can't fathom that a player doesn't want to be here and has to make up reasons in their own head to make it right - In this case, it's all Burke and Quinn's fault.

Bure wanted out from the moment he was drafted until the day Burke gave him his wish. Plain and simple.

Most talented player? Yes!, Best Canuck? No Chance!

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
I think if one read the articles from Wetcoaster and uses an ounce of common sense, they'll see that Bure tried getting out of Vancouver, before ever getting to Vancouver - It's all there. If the Canucks didn't do what they did and Bure got his way, Bure would never have been a canuck - he'd have become a Red Wing, KIng or Ranger - guaranteed.

Throughout Bure's time here, we had different Coaches, different GM's and even different owners and yet the dude simply wanted nothing to do with the canucks. There was nothing inappropriate going on, no FUBAR's, nothing! We should thank the Canucks management for trying as hard as they did with that ingrate.
You should read thee articles again - they do not support your interpretation.

Bure wanted to play for the Canucks - that is why he came to North America. Subsequent events and the canucks action and attitude caused problems. All the Canucks had to do was sign him and then worry about the fall out.

My view is that the Canucks poisoned the well from Day One by subterfuge, deception and lying.

The Canucks did not want Bure to sign on that season and did everything possible to try to help the Soviets enforce an invalid contract so they retained his rights and put them in a position to low ball him during negotiations. Bure used the rules to force negotiations and signed with the Canucks. Think the Mattias Ohlund situation before he was signed.

But for the actions of the Canucks that would not have been necessary.

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12-14-2011, 02:49 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
You should read thee articles again - they do not support your interpretation.
Ah, but that's where you're wrong! With a strong enough confirmation bias you can make anything support your interpretation. For example, when I read those articles, I find them to offer definitive proof that Pavel Bure was actually a Finnish spy.

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Old
12-14-2011, 03:39 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy View Post
Ah, but that's where you're wrong! With a strong enough confirmation bias you can make anything support your interpretation. For example, when I read those articles, I find them to offer definitive proof that Pavel Bure was actually a Finnish spy.
I thought that fact was general knowledge.

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12-14-2011, 03:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
With respect to Bure - it absolutely broke my heart when he demanded a trade and was subsequently dealt. I didn't really understand all the behind the scenes workings like I do now, so I held a lot of anger towards him at the time. But looking back on it - and also seeing the other FUBARs our management made around that time - it's hard not to sympathize with Bure's desire to get the hell out of dodge. Ignoring the fact that he really didn't like the spotlight to begin with (making a fishbowl atmosphere like Vancouver a very difficult place for him to play), the hijinx and shennanigans pulled on him by the Canucks' management team was absolutely preposterous. Can you imagine if Gillis and Aquilini treated the Twins and Kesler the way Quinn, McPhee, etc. treated Bure at the time?

I can tell you one thing, it would have made getting guys like Hamhuis in free agency an absolute pipe dream. [B]The culture and management of this team has come a long, long way.
The difference between night and day in many ways.

The professionalism and proactiveness of this management team is unparralleled with previous regimes in our 40 year history.

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Old
12-14-2011, 04:16 PM
  #110
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Linden is the Toews of Canucks history.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally onboard with it... both cases.

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Old
12-14-2011, 04:29 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
You should read thee articles again - they do not support your interpretation.

Bure wanted to play for the Canucks - that is why he came to North America. Subsequent events and the canucks action and attitude caused problems. All the Canucks had to do was sign him and then worry about the fall out.

My view is that the Canucks poisoned the well from Day One by subterfuge, deception and lying.

The Canucks did not want Bure to sign on that season and did everything possible to try to help the Soviets enforce an invalid contract so they retained his rights and put them in a position to low ball him during negotiations. Bure used the rules to force negotiations and signed with the Canucks. Think the Mattias Ohlund situation before he was signed.

But for the actions of the Canucks that would not have been necessary.
So, the guy gets drafted by Vancouver, and his first course of action is to fly to LA, have his agent "talk" to the LA Kings owner directly and then proceed to start court proceeding to show that the Vancouver Canucks have no rights to his services and you think this is a guy who wanted to be a Vancouver Canuck? LMAO!

No chance! He was looking for free agency - nothing less!

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12-14-2011, 05:58 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
So, the guy gets drafted by Vancouver, and his first course of action is to fly to LA, have his agent "talk" to the LA Kings owner directly and then proceed to start court proceeding to show that the Vancouver Canucks have no rights to his services and you think this is a guy who wanted to be a Vancouver Canuck? LMAO!

No chance! He was looking for free agency - nothing less!
i assume you're referring to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Canucks risk losing Soviet hockey star: [1* Edition]
Gallagher, Tony. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 20 Sep 1991: A63.
...
Bure's position is outlined in the League By-laws under "conditions for free agency," where section 9B.2.(a) (v) states: "The player, having become a defected player pursuant to 9B.1.(b) (this section describes a player whose rights are owned by an NHL team but who has never signed with it) and having played more than two full seasons with an unaffiliated club(s) and has become free of any obligation to such unaffiliated club(s)."
i'm not lawyer or player agent. but my interpretation of that, which i invite wetcoaster to correct me on if i'm mistaken, is that "free agency" in this case doesn't mean bure can sign with any team he wants, but that he is free to sign with the canucks, which he wouldn't be able to if he were still under contract to the red army.

now i am assuming that the free agency referred to above is RFA status, not UFA. which means, like ohlund after he signed an offer sheet with the leafs, the canucks would have a right to match. seems to me if bure wanted to be a canuck, this FA status would be a better way of making that happen than quinn and burke leaving him in russia until their salary structure was ready for him.

obviously, the ability to negotiate with other teams could help him drive up his salary, but i don't think that's evidence of him not wanting to play here. i think that's evidence of him wanting to be paid as much as he can, like every other person in this world ever. unless ohlund also didn't want to be a canuck and thought we were all rapey, murderous pig farmers who weren't worthy of watching him play?

bure paid 1/5 of his own transfer fee, and went behind his agent's back when he did it. he didn't want to be a canuck? seems to me this was just a kid who wanted his chance to play in the NHL, which the canucks were hell bent on postponing.

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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
[INDENT]Bure taking case to court: [FIN Edition]
Bob McKenzie TORONTO STAR. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 01 Oct 1991: B5.

But Bure's agent, Ron Salcer of Los Angeles, vehemently disagrees.

He said yesterday they will seek a temporary injunction to allow Bure to immediately begin contract negotiations with the Canucks, who drafted the player in 1989.
what lines am i not reading between here?

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Old
12-14-2011, 06:01 PM
  #113
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Best "Canuck" = Trevor
Best "Player" = Sedins
Most exciting/OMFG HE DID WAT?! = Bure

Best Save = Kirk McLean sliding kick-save in game 7 OT v Flames, 1994. Epicness abounded in that game.

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Old
12-14-2011, 06:18 PM
  #114
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Best "Canuck" = Trevor
Best "Player" = Sedins
Most exciting/OMFG HE DID WAT?! = Bure

Best Save = Kirk McLean sliding kick-save in game 7 OT v Flames, 1994. Epicness abounded in that game.

Yeah, pretty much this. I would however give Luongo's OT save Vs. Sharp a slight edge over McLean - if only for the drama of the moment.

Alex Burrows "best goal", same game obviously.

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12-14-2011, 06:32 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post
Yeah, pretty much this. I would however give Luongo's OT save Vs. Sharp a slight edge over McLean - if only for the drama of the moment.

Alex Burrows "best goal", same game obviously.

Even Henrik disagrees


There is a reason that is referred to as "The Save". Burrows goal may be bigger but that McLean save is thing of Legends. THAT is dramatics.


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Old
12-14-2011, 06:37 PM
  #116
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Sedins by far after this era is through..

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12-14-2011, 06:56 PM
  #117
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I think when all is said and done, the Sedins will be the best. Who else in the (what I consider consensus) top 5 (Linden/Naslund/Sedins/Bure) played for the Canucks from start to finish? They'll probably be the only players to have 1000+ as Canucks if they re-up after their contract is over, they'll have personal hardware, and they've come just as close to anyone in terms of winning the Cup. They've been here for 10 years and they've made the playoffs 8/10 times. They've led the team for 5/6 of the last 6 seasons (arguably 7) and they haven't been knocked out of the first round since taking over the reigns.


As much as I love Naslund (he is my favourite Canuck ever), he did not have the same success. For his 12 seasons, he was only 6/12 with very little success in the post-season. Linden had 7/10 for his first stint with the Canuck. Bure was 5/7.

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12-14-2011, 07:15 PM
  #118
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Linden scored more in the SCF in 1994 than both Sedins combined in 2011.
Bingo. Linden had (IMO) the best playoff performance of any Canuck forward, ever.

He scored at better than a PPG clip in the playoffs until the wheels fell off after the Messier signing and ensuing debacle.

His career finished weakly but when the games counted the most, he was the best player we've ever had. He was also a great captain and face for the franchise.

There's a reason why he's the most beloved Canuck of all time.

Individual regular season trophies are important but IMO do not make up the difference.

Not taking anything away from the Twins (who I love) but they did not have a great playoffs last year. If they did put together a 'great' performance (win or lose) my opinon might change on it. That said, the Twins generally don't get enough respect.

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12-14-2011, 07:59 PM
  #119
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Now that a Canuck team has made it to the SCF.. Linden has to get knocked a peg wayyyy down.
doubt that - after that serious meltdown linden is way up - kirk mclean too - 1 and 2 in my book

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12-14-2011, 11:33 PM
  #120
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Yeah, pretty much this. I would however give Luongo's OT save Vs. Sharp a slight edge over McLean - if only for the drama of the moment.

Alex Burrows "best goal", same game obviously.
Drama of the moment? Lol

The save by MacLean is a difficult on to do as he had to go cross crease from left to right to kick out his pads on that save. Physically a very challenging save.

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Old
12-15-2011, 12:13 AM
  #121
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troy gamble

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Old
12-15-2011, 12:21 AM
  #122
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So, the guy gets drafted by Vancouver, and his first course of action is to fly to LA, have his agent "talk" to the LA Kings owner directly and then proceed to start court proceeding to show that the Vancouver Canucks have no rights to his services and you think this is a guy who wanted to be a Vancouver Canuck? LMAO!

No chance! He was looking for free agency - nothing less!
No, his first course of action was to try to negotiate a contract with the Canucks who brushed him off and lied about what they were doing.

His agent then used the threat of free agency to force the Canucks to the table.

If he truly was seeking free agency all he had to do was not sign the deal and most certainly not chip in $50,000 of his own money.

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12-15-2011, 09:08 AM
  #123
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No, his first course of action was to try to negotiate a contract with the Canucks who brushed him off and lied about what they were doing.

The evidence and time line does not support that. The evidence clearly shows that the first course of action was to deem the russian contract "void".

His agent then used the threat of free agency to force the Canucks to the table.

No, they exhausted every road they could in an effort to claim free agency. Only when they realized they were out of options (eg. the courts, the NHL and the Russians), did they negotiate.

If he truly was seeking free agency all he had to do was not sign the deal and most certainly not chip in $50,000 of his own money.
If he didn't sign with the Canucks, he wasn't going to play. It seems the NHL was siding by the Canucks and the Russians in an effort to maintain good relations - the NHL were not in a position to allow a kid to interfere with that. The money Bure kicked in? Was it really Bure's money, did he really pay anything? or was it money that the Canucks gave him when they paid him 2-3x what all his peers were getting + his $800,000 signing bonus.

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12-15-2011, 10:37 AM
  #124
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what timeline? what evidence? what button?

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ohlund also didn't want to be a canuck and thought we were all rapey, murderous pig farmers who weren't worthy of watching him play
i tells ya.

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12-20-2011, 06:49 PM
  #125
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It all depends on when you watched the Canucks, I'm only 16, so I wasnt around for the '94 playoffs or the '82 run. I love Bure, but thats because I was too young to understand why he left. I never liked Messier. I never really knew what Linden did for our organization til i was 10 or so.. he is Mr. Canuck. I grew up being a Naslund fan, now i'm a Burrows or Hodgson kinda guy. I liked Kesler until the 2010 olympics came around, I still love him as a player but he lost a bit of respect from me off the ice. Maybe bringing a cup home would get him some respect back.

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