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Old
12-13-2011, 12:04 AM
  #26
etherialone
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No.

I never said that TM was entirely to blame for our current troubles but, he is the architect of our teams system and is responsible for preparing the team to play to their fullest potential inside of said system.

TM is also responsible for his coaching staff and their participation in the preparation and execution of this system as well.

Finally, the players are responsible to be in peak physical condition and to do their best to understand the system and then execute it to their own best abilities.

TM failed at every aspect of his job.

Now we will see how well his underlings perform without him and finally we will be better able to see where the holes in a few of our players games lie.

Are you saying that all of our player suck and are responsible for TM being fired? I don't think you are but since you sort of made a sweeping supposition about what I was saying I figured I would give you one as well.

No biggie.

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12-13-2011, 12:07 AM
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Button made a good point. He said just because they are your top 6 forwards doesnt mean they would be another team's top 6 forward.


Take out kopi and richards, what teams could the kings top 6 play for?

Phoenix, New jersey... 2nd line, blues, preds, ...who else

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12-13-2011, 12:11 AM
  #28
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I would agree with that.

Brown is a second line/third line RW on some teams.

Williams is a second line RW by some agendas.

Gagne? He has been a top line forward and successfully so on other teams. Is he still?

So you could argue that we have a bunch of second third liners playing along side two of the best centers in the game (not the best but among them).

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12-13-2011, 12:18 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
No.

I never said that TM was entirely to blame for our current troubles but, he is the architect of our teams system and is responsible for preparing the team to play to their fullest potential inside of said system.

TM is also responsible for his coaching staff and their participation in the preparation and execution of this system as well.

Finally, the players are responsible to be in peak physical condition and to do their best to understand the system and then execute it to their own best abilities.

TM failed at every aspect of his job.

Now we will see how well his underlings perform without him and finally we will be better able to see where the holes in a few of our players games lie.

Are you saying that all of our player suck and are responsible for TM being fired? I don't think you are but since you sort of made a sweeping supposition about what I was saying I figured I would give you one as well.

No biggie.
Lombardi built a defense first team and hired a coach to play that style. That is not TM's fault...it is Lombardi's.

Lombardi has brought in a weak group of forwards and tried to pass them off a first and second line players. The exception being Richards but he came at a ridiculously high price. Button said it EXACTLY correctly...the wingers on this team are all playing one line too high. Gagne and Williams are no longer first line wingers on a SC contending team. They just aren't and it shows. Brown and Penner are probably better suited to be 3rd liners on a great team. Here they are on the 2nd line...and not doing much.

So do the players suck? well, they are what they are. Lombardi is the guy making the personnel moves and he is failing. unfortunately, too many fans won't step back and access the talent on this team objectively. if they did, they wouldn't be surprised that the team is below .500 this year.

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12-13-2011, 12:20 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I would agree with that.

Brown is a second line/third line RW on some teams.

Williams is a second line RW by some agendas.

Gagne? He has been a top line forward and successfully so on other teams. Is he still?

So you could argue that we have a bunch of second third liners playing along side two of the best centers in the game (not the best but among them).
Kopi and Richards are talented enough to make players around them better but they are struggling with this group. I think if they find some chemistry it can click, but if kopi or richards goes down the whole line goes down with them.

Bernier is a great asset to trade, Voynov may make someone in the top 6 tradable. Lotki can develop into a nice player. They have assets , maybe lombardi can get parise.

Parise would really help. Then you could do a line of Williams, Kopi, Parise....which is an amazing 2 way line with Brown Richards Gagne which may be an even better 2 way line. Penner Lotki Stoll is a very good 3rd line as well.

I bet Bernier AND jj GET PARISE FOR SURE.

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12-13-2011, 12:22 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Lombardi built a defense first team and hired a coach to play that style. That is not TM's fault...it is Lombardi's.

Lombardi has brought in a weak group of forwards and tried to pass them off a first and second line players. The exception being Richards but he came at a ridiculously high price. Button said it EXACTLY correctly...the wingers on this team are all playing one line too high. Gagne and Williams are no longer first line wingers on a SC contending team. They just aren't and it shows. Brown and Penner are probably better suited to be 3rd liners on a great team. Here they are on the 2nd line...and not doing much.

So do the players suck? well, they are what they are. Lombardi is the guy making the personnel moves and he is failing. unfortunately, too many fans won't step back and access the talent on this team objectively. if they did, they wouldn't be surprised that the team is below .500 this year.
Richards a high price? what exactly did you give up for him? 2nd name another center as dynamic as him that only costs 5.6 against the cap. Lets compare values of Dougty to Richards in terms of contract....its not even close.

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12-13-2011, 12:24 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Button made a good point. He said just because they are your top 6 forwards doesnt mean they would be another team's top 6 forward.


Take out kopi and richards, what teams could the kings top 6 play for?

Phoenix, New jersey... 2nd line, blues, preds, ...who else
Not really.

Gagne, Williams and Brown although not having great years are all doing better than your second winger Wayne Simmonds.

Besides, let's see what happens now that Murray is gone.

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12-13-2011, 12:29 AM
  #33
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Pittsburgh has crap wingers too...look at them...

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12-13-2011, 12:30 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Kopi11 View Post
I don't think we have bad players at all. We have a lot of good players. I think the problem was the players in a system that doesn't fit them. I have always felt that the coach needs to adjust to the players, not the players adjust to the coach. I think if we can get a coach that isn't TM2.0 (Sutter) we can really have a good team. The defense and goaltending is set. They really need help from the offense.
Not only do I feel the same but I think this is fact.

We replaced guys like Handzus, Simmonds, Poni, and Smyth with Richards, Gagne, Hunter, and Moreau. Last years group is much better at the dump and chase game. Big bodies that can play along the boards and maintain a puck possession game. This years group simply does not play that game. People need to understand that.

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12-13-2011, 12:32 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Not really.

Gagne, Williams and Brown although not having great years are all doing better than your second winger Wayne Simmonds.

Besides, let's see what happens now that Murray is gone.
Son, you would be ill advised for implying any sort of judgement on the flyers, especially when it comes to their forwards.


JVR and Voracek play 3rd line and would be on your guys first.

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12-13-2011, 12:37 AM
  #36
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Son, you would be ill advised for implying any sort of judgement on the flyers, especially when it comes to their forwards.


JVR and Voracek play 3rd line and would be on your guys first.
Let's stick to the facts there junior.

Like I said, let's wait and see now that Murray is gone.

Believe me, Read, Jagr, Hartnell wouldn't be having the type of years under Murray.

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12-13-2011, 12:41 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Lombardi built a defense first team and hired a coach to play that style. That is not TM's fault...it is Lombardi's.

Lombardi has brought in a weak group of forwards and tried to pass them off a first and second line players. The exception being Richards but he came at a ridiculously high price. Button said it EXACTLY correctly...the wingers on this team are all playing one line too high. Gagne and Williams are no longer first line wingers on a SC contending team. They just aren't and it shows. Brown and Penner are probably better suited to be 3rd liners on a great team. Here they are on the 2nd line...and not doing much.

So do the players suck? well, they are what they are. Lombardi is the guy making the personnel moves and he is failing. unfortunately, too many fans won't step back and access the talent on this team objectively. if they did, they wouldn't be surprised that the team is below .500 this year.
I am confused, did TM hold zero responsibility in his firing?

I agree that we need actual first line LW/RW's but that doesn't mean that the players who we have throughout our line up aren't any good.

I would say poorly utilized and even worse, when they are never given a legitimate chance to develop any chemistry with their centers due to their coaches obsession for line changing would be a big part of the problem that they are all struggling.

TM was what he was and earned his accolades as well as his detractors.

We are overloaded with talent on the blue line and in net.

We have 3 exceptionally talented young centers on the team today and I believe that Lewis with his speed and defencive game is a great young fourth line center too.

While mired in his sophomore jinx season Clifford is showing a few rare moments of breaking out of it. Westgarth when given more than 2mins per game has shown that he is a little more than just a goon. Is Loktionov ready for the NHL yet or does he just need a system that allows him to be a bit more creative to shine? I am not certain yet but for our bottom 6 I have us having 4 very good young players plus guys like Richardson etc as well giving us some good depth.

If Brown is a 3rd line RW then he is among the best (second line RW a good one).

So to me it comes down to SG, JW and DP and I agree that those three guys are all second line wingers and aren't really top line guys so that leaves us need two, two players to join our top line, other than that we are as good or better than most team as far as talent goes at every other position and way better than most on D and in goal.

To me the players if utilized properly and given time to develop chemistry with their line mates instead of being continuously juggled around should level out and begin playing good hockey. Do we still need two top line wingers? Yes but allot of teams have greater needs and are still performing better with less.

Do we only credit the players of these teams or do we give credit to the coaches and then the players? We both know that when a team plays well that isn't expected to do so the credit always goes to the head coach.

So TM had his time and failed. He was a good coach and did a good job but not good enough and is on the outs. The players did their best with what they were given and will hopefully do better just as a new coach will hopefully be more successful.

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12-13-2011, 12:44 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Kopi and Richards are talented enough to make players around them better but they are struggling with this group. I think if they find some chemistry it can click, but if kopi or richards goes down the whole line goes down with them.

Bernier is a great asset to trade, Voynov may make someone in the top 6 tradable. Lotki can develop into a nice player. They have assets , maybe lombardi can get parise.

Parise would really help. Then you could do a line of Williams, Kopi, Parise....which is an amazing 2 way line with Brown Richards Gagne which may be an even better 2 way line. Penner Lotki Stoll is a very good 3rd line as well.

I bet Bernier AND jj GET PARISE FOR SURE.
I agree with allot of what you are saying and have been considering how much and who of our talented assets could and should be moved to bring in at least one first line winger and which winger would we be able to land by moving them.

I would give a couple of weeks to see how things shake out before I did anything (unless the perfect deal landed in my lap) but I might just get to it sooner rather than later.

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12-13-2011, 12:45 AM
  #39
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Richards a high price? what exactly did you give up for him? 2nd name another center as dynamic as him that only costs 5.6 against the cap. Lets compare values of Dougty to Richards in terms of contract....its not even close.
Let's compare Schenn at 23 and Simmonds at 25 with Richards at 30 and then judge the trade.

Any idiot (Lombardi) can trade the future for the present and look like a genius for a day. The truth is that Richards' talent is wasted on this team. If he was the final piece to the puzzle then fine but it is clear that the puzzle has many missing pieces.

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12-13-2011, 12:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am confused, did TM hold zero responsibility in his firing?

I agree that we need actual first line LW/RW's but that doesn't mean that the players who we have throughout our line up aren't any good.

I would say poorly utilized and even worse, when they are never given a legitimate chance to develop any chemistry with their centers due to their coaches obsession for line changing would be a big part of the problem that they are all struggling.

TM was what he was and earned his accolades as well as his detractors.

We are overloaded with talent on the blue line and in net.

We have 3 exceptionally talented young centers on the team today and I believe that Lewis with his speed and defencive game is a great young fourth line center too.

While mired in his sophomore jinx season Clifford is showing a few rare moments of breaking out of it. Westgarth when given more than 2mins per game has shown that he is a little more than just a goon. Is Loktionov ready for the NHL yet or does he just need a system that allows him to be a bit more creative to shine? I am not certain yet but for our bottom 6 I have us having 4 very good young players plus guys like Richardson etc as well giving us some good depth.

If Brown is a 3rd line RW then he is among the best (second line RW a good one).

So to me it comes down to SG, JW and DP and I agree that those three guys are all second line wingers and aren't really top line guys so that leaves us need two, two players to join our top line, other than that we are as good or better than most team as far as talent goes at every other position and way better than most on D and in goal.

To me the players if utilized properly and given time to develop chemistry with their line mates instead of being continuously juggled around should level out and begin playing good hockey. Do we still need two top line wingers? Yes but allot of teams have greater needs and are still performing better with less.

Do we only credit the players of these teams or do we give credit to the coaches and then the players? We both know that when a team plays well that isn't expected to do so the credit always goes to the head coach.

So TM had his time and failed. He was a good coach and did a good job but not good enough and is on the outs. The players did their best with what they were given and will hopefully do better just as a new coach will hopefully be more successful.
Not a fan of TM at all but I predict the next coach will do little better. getting Richards back will help. The kings had back to back 90+ point seasons with TM as the coach. this year, a step back. why? did TM forget how to coach or did the moves Lombardi made backfire?

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12-13-2011, 12:54 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Let's compare Schenn at 23 and Simmonds at 25 with Richards at 30 and then judge the trade.

Any idiot (Lombardi) can trade the future for the present and look like a genius for a day. The truth is that Richards' talent is wasted on this team. If he was the final piece to the puzzle then fine but it is clear that the puzzle has many missing pieces.
Come on, let's keep it real.

In your eyes, we'll always be missing pieces.

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12-13-2011, 12:56 AM
  #42
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Let's compare Schenn at 23 and Simmonds at 25 with Richards at 30 and then judge the trade.

Any idiot (Lombardi) can trade the future for the present and look like a genius for a day. The truth is that Richards' talent is wasted on this team. If he was the final piece to the puzzle then fine but it is clear that the puzzle has many missing pieces.
Schenn will be 24 and simmonds will be 27. I imagine schenn will either be a bust or have a contract worth way more than 5.6 mill and simmonds i see being a 4 mill a year player.

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12-13-2011, 12:57 AM
  #43
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Come on, let's keep it real.

In your eyes, we'll always be missing pieces.
13-16 won/loss record on the season so far...that speaks for itself.

You can be a fan and still be critical. Most fans this year just vented on TM...I am attacking the REAL problem....Dean Lombardi.

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12-13-2011, 12:58 AM
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Not a fan of TM at all but I predict the next coach will do little better. getting Richards back will help. The kings had back to back 90+ point seasons with TM as the coach. this year, a step back. why? did TM forget how to coach or did the moves Lombardi made backfire?
What moves could have backfired and how?

Richards has been one of our best players and has been a critical part of most of our victories, the guy is nails and I can't see any of that deal as being anything other than fair.

Losing our former lying Smyth wasn't DL's choice but Fraser can play and is doing a good enough job so far.

Letting the very very slow but effective Zuess walk? He just wasn't worth his salary in the end.

Signing Gagne? Alright I guess that hasn't proven itself yet but I am willing to give him a season to shake out.

If we are talking about Hunter and EM then I guess you can call them both to be either somewhat effective or totally useless.

I would have preferred that we bring up our kids to fill our bottom 6 when and wherever possible but will trust DL to judge which ones are ready and when they make their jump.

I think the major difference between us is you feel the way about DL that I have seen in TM over the couple of years.

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12-13-2011, 01:01 AM
  #45
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Schenn will be 24 and simmonds will be 27. I imagine schenn will either be a bust or have a contract worth way more than 5.6 mill and simmonds i see being a 4 mill a year player.
your point?

If Schenn becomes the next Richards and Simmonds anchors the 3rd line then they deserve to be paid what they are worth. And the Flyers will be a better team than they would have been with Richards. In fact, Philly seems to be doing just fine without the drama Richards seemed to create there.

Right now, the Kings are paying Richards more than Philly is paying Schenn/Simmonds. is that a problem for the Kings?

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12-13-2011, 01:03 AM
  #46
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What moves could have backfired and how?

Richards has been one of our best players and has been a critical part of most of our victories, the guy is nails and I can't see any of that deal as being anything other than fair.

Losing our former lying Smyth wasn't DL's choice but Fraser can play and is doing a good enough job so far.

Letting the very very slow but effective Zuess walk? He just wasn't worth his salary in the end.

Signing Gagne? Alright I guess that hasn't proven itself yet but I am willing to give him a season to shake out.

If we are talking about Hunter and EM then I guess you can call them both to be either somewhat effective or totally useless.

I would have preferred that we bring up our kids to fill our bottom 6 when and wherever possible but will trust DL to judge which ones are ready and when they make their jump.

I think the major difference between us is you feel the way about DL that I have seen in TM over the couple of years.
If you think Penner, Moreau, Gagne, and Hunter have improved the team then we'll just agree to disagree. Richards has improved the team but he is wasting his talent with the garbage he is surrounded by.

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12-13-2011, 01:06 AM
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13-16 won/loss record on the season so far...that speaks for itself.

You can be a fan and still be critical. Most fans this year just vented on TM...I am attacking the REAL problem....Dean Lombardi.
So, as far as you're concerned, we're an average team, and we probably won't even make the playoffs, as long as the root of all of our problem, DL, is still part of this organization right?

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12-13-2011, 01:06 AM
  #48
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Dean Lombardi has not built a winning team... PERIOD.

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12-13-2011, 01:08 AM
  #49
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13-16 won/loss record on the season so far...that speaks for itself.

You can be a fan and still be critical. Most fans this year just vented on TM...I am attacking the REAL problem....Dean Lombardi.
Tomd, this is really bordering on hypocrisy friend.

To say that only YOU and a few other fans who see things the same as you do are the only ones who are attacking "the real problem" is largely off to my way of thinking. Its just like saying that TM is the only problem and only those who agree are attacking "the real problem".

TM was in charge and he had proven that he was unable to continually improve on his system enough to take us closer to winning the cup or winning the cup during the four years that he was given.

DL is also on watch but not imo for the reasons that you seem to be saying imo. I find DL to be showing a tendency to take too long to make substantive decisions at times and that by doing so he has cost us some time.

DL has been a genius at the draft and at discovering/signing young talent and that is why I am willing to be so flexible with him but other than that he has been showing some signs of weakness to me too.

So I see it as our biggest problem being TM firstly and DL secondly in that he gave TM too much rope to fix things and when nothing happened he waited too long to do something about it.

All of this is debatable imo but to me saying that DL is "the real problem" well, is just sort of linear to me when the problem is at least multi angled.

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12-13-2011, 01:11 AM
  #50
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If you think Penner, Moreau, Gagne, and Hunter have improved the team then we'll just agree to disagree. Richards has improved the team but he is wasting his talent with the garbage he is surrounded by.
Where did I say anything like that? I said that I don't think that EM and TH were great signings at best and that we should have used our kids to fill those two spots and that I am willing to give SG more time before I call his signing a flop and you think that I have said that their signings have improved the team?

I can't come close to seeing how you got that one.

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