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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-14-2011, 10:48 PM
  #251
Agnostic
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The fact that the Gazette picked up and published a story based on "social networking sites" speaks volumes about its editing standards. It doesn't matter if the story originated out of Toronto, traditional journalist have standards to uphold.
It was actually blogged by Damien Cox. Damien is mainstream media and should be considered a good source. Damien got it from Cliff Fletcher who was having a seniors moment I suppose.

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12-14-2011, 10:50 PM
  #252
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Your showing that you have no idea about sexual abuse victims. You don't understand how torturous it is for them to come forward. To have to relive that humilation in public, only so that the rapist is free in 3 years.

Victims have to live with that torture for the rest of their lives. Do you know anyone who's been sexually assualted irl? They are shells of their former selves.

You can't expect a person who was assualted during their adolescent years to develop into a rational functioning human being.

Do you have any kids? I highly doubt it because you are showing no intelligence in regards to child development. When you become a parent, you gain an understanding of how things affect people.

Would you expect your daughter to act & behave rationally after if she was *****? If you do, then I feel sorry for your offspring.

**** victims go on to have life long sexual problems. I bet even now that Fleury is clean and sober, having sex triggers negative memories at times. You don't forget that kind of abuse. There are also triggers that bring back those horrible memories.
Two kids, a daughter and a son. And a first cousin who was molested as a child by someone he trusted. Fortunately for him, he is living a normal life and is in a relationship with a very good woman.

As with everything in life, there is no black and white.

Amazing how people think that they know everything about someone from words on a message board and in reality they really dont.

Last thing to say on this thread. My words and my intent on this thread have been twisted and taken out of context. So much so that I have been accused of a lot of things that do not even come close to reality. So be it. One of the hardest things that I have found about internet message boards is that it is at times difficult to get your exact meaning across.

I tried, then gave up, then tried again to clarify and then got hammered again. I should have left this thread the first time.

macavoy. I can forgive you since you dont really know me.

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12-14-2011, 10:57 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
How about my analogy with the neighbor. Here, I will refresh your memory.


Your neighbor Bob was molested as a kid and runs a day care center. Your other neighbor's (Fred--and he is your best friend) daughter was molested by Bob. Fred does not file charges because he sympathizes with Bob's situation. And after being asked by Bob to become a business partner, Fred becomes co-owner of the daycare. Fred then asks you to enroll your daughter in the day care and you do.

Years later the truth comes out about both Bob and Fred and the number of girls that Bob molested.

What do you say when the reporter covering the story has it published in the newspaper? That the reporter should be fired? Or is there an issue with Bob and Fred?


I HONESTLY want you to comment on this with you being the neighbor of Bob and Fred.
Dude, what in God's name is this scenario?

What kind of a freaking moron would ''Fred'' be? Heck, moron doesn't even starts to describe it. Unreal is the only word.

So, Fred says to Bob that it's okay if he ***** his kid, he won't press charges because he feels bad about Bob's past. Ya, okay, so Fred has more sympathy for Bob than his own daughter. I think you left out the part where Bob absolutely detest his daughter. There is no way a loving father would ever have an ounce of sympathy for someone that dare abuse anyone of his children.

But then, you don't even leave it at that. After a little bit, Fred agrees to become a business partner of the man who ra.ped his daughter??? What????
In what freaking world do you live in??? How can you even come up with such a facking dumb scenario???

I don't know anybody that would have any sympathy for someone that abuses their kids, no matter how deranged the person may be.


Seriously, that is such a retarded thing to even think. If that's not what you're trying to say, I suggest you work on finding the right words to write before posting.




I can't believe some people here are trying to make a case for Hickey. It's so incredibly stupid. I'm truly disgusted.

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:10 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I can't believe some people here are trying to make a case for Hickey. It's so incredibly stupid. I'm truly disgusted.
That he called out fleury for knowingly endangering kids by having a pedofile as the coach of his team? Even though Fleury was a victim, I don't think it excuses him for putting many kids in danger... do you?

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12-14-2011, 11:24 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
That he called out fleury for knowingly endangering kids by having a pedofile as the coach of his team? Even though Fleury was a victim, I don't think it excuses him for putting many kids in danger... do you?
You would have a point if Fleury was not abused. We're not talking about Joe Paterno here. It's not an innocent bystander that suddenly decides to speaks out. You're talking about a victim, that has drowned his sorrows into alcohol, that has battled (and still does) a lot of demons because of the abuse he's suffered.
Calling him out because he didn't come out earlier is just pure idiotic and shows very little sensitivity towards him as a victim.

Should he have denounced this coach ASAP? Sure. Does it make him a hypocrite for not doing it?? No.

It's one thing to say he should have come forward earlier, it's another to call him a hypocrite.

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12-14-2011, 11:32 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
That he called out fleury for knowingly endangering kids by having a pedofile as the coach of his team? Even though Fleury was a victim, I don't think it excuses him for putting many kids in danger... do you?
Nobody denies that it would've been better if Fleury had spoken out sooner. Fleury himself wouldn't deny this.

But listen to what Fleury SAID... he was under the guy's control. That's how it works when abusers sexually assault young men. They know the vulnerabilities and they keep them under their thumb.

Again answer these questions? Do you think Fleury liked James? Do you think he wanted anything to do with him? Do you think that he enjoyed having been abused?

The answer to each of these questions is 'no'.

So the real question is WHY didn't he speak out sooner? And the answer is because he was a VICTIM. Hickey just glosses over this and calls him a hypocrite... saying he should've come out sooner. Well, that's easy for him to say in his comfy office where the biggest thing he has to worry about is sitting on his butt in front of a typewriter.

Seriously... what did Fleury have to GAIN by having anything to do with James? Nothing right? So why did he do it? He did it because he was scared and intimidated by a guy who had rap.ed him in the past. It's not uncommon for victims to feel guilty as though THEY had done something wrong... they just plain aren't thinking straight man.

That kind of scenario deserves compassion and understanding. Instead Hickey offered up criticism, self righteousness and ignorance. By all means, praise Kennedy for coming out. That took tremendous strength. But don't pray on those who (for very understandable reasons) couldn't find the strength to talk about it. They deserve our sympathy not our scorn.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Last thing to say on this thread. My words and my intent on this thread have been twisted and taken out of context. So much so that I have been accused of a lot of things that do not even come close to reality. So be it. One of the hardest things that I have found about internet message boards is that it is at times difficult to get your exact meaning across.

I tried, then gave up, then tried again to clarify and then got hammered again. I should have left this thread the first time.
I have no idea who you are or what you're about. My only hope is that you think about this for a while and maybe someday re-evaluate your position on this.

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:34 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You would have a point if Fleury was not abused. We're not talking about Joe Paterno here. It's not an innocent bystander that suddenly decides to speaks out. You're talking about a victim, that has drowned his sorrows into alcohol, that has battled (and still does) a lot of demons because of the abuse he's suffered.
Calling him out because he didn't come out earlier is just pure idiotic and shows very little sensitivity towards him as a victim.

Should he have denounced this coach ASAP? Sure. Does it make him a hypocrite for not doing it?? No.

It's one thing to say he should have come forward earlier, it's another to call him a hypocrite.
Hickey doesn't really mention that Fleury should have come out earlier. He calls him a hypocrite because he was unhappy about Giving James some time back in the real world, where Fleury (back when he was fked up) enabled... yes enabled the pedofile to be near hockey kids once again!

Now where we differ is that you think its ok because at that point in Fleury's life he was fked up mentally. You think it excuses him throwing James into a situation where he could have (and probably did) sexually abuse kids. I say that it does not excuse it at all!

Who are you to say that its dispicable that some people here don't agree with that? Get off your high horse! Imagine you were the parent of one of the kids that played for Fleury's team while he knowingly put the pedofile in charge... would you forgive him then too because he was a victim? I wouldn't and I don't think it's a lesser opinion than yours.

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12-14-2011, 11:43 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Hickey doesn't really mention that Fleury should have come out earlier. He calls him a hypocrite because he was unhappy about Giving James some time back in the real world, where Fleury (back when he was fked up) enabled... yes enabled the pedofile to be near hockey kids once again!

Now where we differ is that you think its ok because at that point in Fleury's life he was fked up mentally. You think it excuses him throwing James into a situation where he could have (and probably did) sexually abuse kids. I say that it does not excuse it at all!

Who are you to say that its dispicable that some people here don't agree with that? Get off your high horse! Imagine you were the parent of one of the kids that played for Fleury's team while he knowingly put the pedofile in charge... would you forgive him then too because he was a victim? I wouldn't and I don't think it's a lesser opinion than yours.
Victims stay silent all the time. If we're going to blame them for this, then we really have no compassion or understanding of the kinds of things that they've endured.

There is only ONE guy responsible here and his name is Graham James. As a parent, that would be the ONLY guy I'd want held responsible. I see nothing good coming out of prosecuting his other victims...

And where do we draw the line? How many other victims are there out there? Should we hate on ALL of them for not speaking out? Whether they were in close proximity to him or not they ALL knew about what he'd done so I guess you'd better declare war on ALL the kids he rap.ed because that's where your argument starts and ends. They knew he was a rapist too and let him walk so I don't see why we should only burn Fleury at the stake and not them.

You know what... let's create a new law. If you've been rap.ed by somebody and don't have the courage to speak out about it RIGHT AWAY then you can be charged with letting a rapist on the loose. Does that make sense? Would that make this a better world?

Seriously man, think about it.

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:44 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody denies that it would've been better if Fleury had spoken out sooner. Fleury himself wouldn't deny this.

But listen to what Fleury SAID... he was under the guy's control. That's how it works when abusers sexually assault young men. They know the vulnerabilities and they keep them under their thumb.

Again answer these questions? Do you think Fleury liked James? Do you think he wanted anything to do with him? Do you think that he enjoyed having been abused?

The answer to each of these questions is 'no'.

So the real question is WHY didn't he speak out sooner? And the answer is because he was a VICTIM. Hickey just glosses over this and calls him a hypocrite... saying he should've come out sooner. Well, that's easy for him to say in his comfy office where the biggest thing he has to worry about is sitting on his butt in front of a typewriter.

Seriously... what did Fleury have to GAIN by having anything to do with James? Nothing right? So why did he do it? He did it because he was scared and intimidated by a guy who had rap.ed him in the past. It's not uncommon for victims to feel guilty as though THEY had done something wrong... they just plain aren't thinking straight man.

That kind of scenario deserves compassion and understanding. Instead Hickey offered up criticism, self righteousness and ignorance. By all means, praise Kennedy for coming out. That took tremendous strength. But don't pray on those who (for very understandable reasons) couldn't find the strength to talk about it. They deserve our sympathy not our scorn.
I don't see where Hickey calls Fleury a hypocrite for not going public sooner... I only see him calling out fleury a hypocrite for giving **** to the judge that granted him bail or wtv it was, when he himself allowed James to be near kids.

Not all people that are abused enable their abuser to sexually abuse other kids, which happened in Fleury's case. I feel bad for Fleury because his messed up mind led him to do it, but he still did it! And should be held accountable.

I don't think it's unfair.

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Old
12-14-2011, 11:48 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Victims stay silent all the time. If we're going to blame them for this, then we really have no compassion or understanding of the kinds of things that they've endured.

There is only ONE guy responsible here and his name is Graham James. As a parent, that would be the ONLY guy I'd want held responsible. I see nothing good coming out of prosecuting his other victims...

And where do we draw the line? How many other victims are there out there? Should we hate on ALL of them for not speaking out? Whether they were in close proximity to him or not they ALL knew about what he'd done so I guess you'd better declare war on ALL the kids he rap.ed because that's where your argument starts and ends. They knew he was a rapist too and let him walk so I don't see why we should only burn Fleury at the stake and not them.

You know what... let's create a new law. If you've been rap.ed by somebody and don't have the courage to speak out about it RIGHT AWAY then you can be charged with letting a rapist on the loose. Does that make sense? Would that make this a better world?

Seriously man, think about it.
I'm only going to say this one more time. it's not about speaking out sooner! Of course they don't have to speak out if they don't want to. Its about Fleury knowingly leaving his abuser in a position to abuse other kids! THat I cannot forgive, even though he was a victim and was messed up.

These are kids lives, that he knowingly put in danger!!! Of course you blame James... more than anyone! But how can you not put any blame on Fleury?

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12-15-2011, 12:24 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I'm only going to say this one more time. it's not about speaking out sooner! Of course they don't have to speak out if they don't want to. Its about Fleury knowingly leaving his abuser in a position to abuse other kids! THat I cannot forgive, even though he was a victim and was messed up.

These are kids lives, that he knowingly put in danger!!! Of course you blame James... more than anyone! But how can you not put any blame on Fleury?
by understanding the psychology of the abused...

how many women have stayed in abusive relationships, which put their children and/or future children at risk?

Are you about to tell me that we should blame them for not leaving their abusive partners, thus putting their children at risk?


how many women, or men, have been *****, and yet continued working with the person who violated them?


i hope, for various reasons, that you never have to experience physical or sexual abuse, or the long-term impact it has on you.

So easy for people to sit up high and cast judgment when they are clueless to what it's like on the other side, or worse, are still stuck in denial b/c of having experienced it themselves and not gotten over it...

Fleury is not a saint b/c he got abused, but his "sins", including not speaking up sooner so as to help put James in his place earlier, can be understood.


Hickey's column was nothing more than the settling of a personal vendetta combined with a very indulgent need to ride on a high horse...

as he let alluded to in his radio follow-ups, the article came about from his holier-than-thou belief that he needs to rail against the hero-worship culture that is symptomatic of our society...

he should have focused his attention on the far more relevant and far more revealing reflection of that disease (which I fundamentally agree is a huge weakness of our culture)... Steve Jobs & his post-humours deification...

instead, he targeted a victim of abuse who, for all his short-comings, is finally devoting his time, energy & resources towards a cause worthy of all our attention.

shameful doesn't even begin to describe it... i wish i lived in montreal, cuz if i did I'd have a subscription to the Gazette and I'd cancel it immediately to protest against such a vulgar affront to ethical journalism.

pathetic

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12-15-2011, 12:46 AM
  #262
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I applaud all the posters who are not tolerating this crap from Hickey.
Particularly Lafleurs Guy since we rarely agree on anything hockey related !

Major respect to Ghost for having the guts to share his story and help educate us all.
Best of luck in the future.
Stay strong.

I think this thread will definitely influence everyone who read it to have more sensitivity and empathy.

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12-15-2011, 12:47 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
I applaud all the posters who are not tolerating this crap from Hickey.
Particularly Lafleurs Guy since we rarely agree on anything hockey related !

Major respect to Ghost for having the guts to share his story and help educate us all.
Best of luck in the future.
Stay strong.

I think this thread will definitely influence everyone who read it to have more sensitivity and empathy.
hope your right on that...

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12-15-2011, 01:01 AM
  #264
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I still stand by what I said.

Why?

Not one person posting on this thread would stand in support of Fleury if their son was molested and ***** by James while working as "Coach" of the team that "Victim of Coach James" Theo Fleury co-owned.

Not one.

But I am the ****ing retard for pointing that out.

While you all are crying for Theo Fleury, please shed a tear for the kids that were molested and ***** while Coach James worked for Fleury. Those kids are the real victims in this story.

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12-15-2011, 01:04 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I still stand by what I said.

Why?

Not one person posting on this thread would stand in support of Fleury if their son was molested and ***** by James while working as "Coach" of the team that "Victim of Coach James" Theo Fleury co-owned.

Not one.

But I am the ****ing retard for pointing that out.

While you all are crying for Theo Fleury, please shed a tear for the kids that were molested and ***** while Coach James worked for Fleury. Those kids are the real victims in this story.
yes, they are the victims of the predator Graham James... that's the part you seem incapable or unwilling to understand.

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12-15-2011, 01:05 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The fact that the Gazette picked up and published a story based on "social networking sites" speaks volumes about its editing standards. It doesn't matter if the story originated out of Toronto, traditional journalist have standards to uphold.
That, and the fact that The Gazette actually encourages people to log on their website and comment on the Hickey/Fleury story...

http://twitter.com/#!/mtlgazette/sta...09077445853185

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A lot of reaction to Pat Hickey's column on Theo Fleury this morning. We welcome your comments http://*******/ry7wWv
So Fleury's an hypocrite for not exposing James, milking his story to make story off book sales, and attacking the government for being too lenient about pedophiles, but meanwhile at The Gazette, it's "Come over our website and let us know what you think. We need as many hits as we can to get more money from advertisement. Hey, Pat, my man, how about you write another column where you can keep the story alive? Avoid making any sort of apology to anyone who's ever been abused or molested and has taken offence to what you wrote the other day, if you can. Yeah, act clueless, it's done wonders so far. Keep up the great work! I hear the sound of mouse clicks already. Ka-tching!"


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12-15-2011, 01:09 AM
  #267
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I must say the article was not really needed, but it did shed light on a fact I did not know about Fleury and James. I sympathize with what happened to Fleury... how can any human being not? I'm glad that Fleury is on a quest to bring awareness to child abuse. I also feel that victims should not feel pressure to speak out unless they are ready to.

But at the same time, I sympathize with the kids and parents of the kids who had to play under James as a coach... INCLUDING under Fleury's reign as GM. This article is the first time I read about that part of Fleury's life, and I am very upset that he enabled James even under his mental conditions. If my kids were playing for his team at this point, and I found out that he let this monster coach my kid knowing what he was capable of, I would never forgive him... but that's just me.

I'm sure Fleury feels bad about enabling James... and that is the way it should be.

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12-15-2011, 01:37 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Hickey's column was nothing more than the settling of a personal vendetta combined with a very indulgent need to ride on a high horse
And it's a rehash of a story he wrote in 2009:

http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/column...b-01a111ad39d9

Proof that Hickey doesn't "get it":

Quote:
But Fleury would have commanded a lot more respect if he stepped forward in 1996 when former teammate Sheldon Kennedy was the first player to blow the whistle on James's predatory behaviour.

If he had come forward then, Fleury might not have seen his career dissolve in a haze of alcohol, drugs and other destructive behaviour.
Hickey actually thinks that Fleury's "crash" comes from the fact that he didn't support Kennedy and expose James in '96. Like the fact that Fleury himself was abused has no bearing whatsoever on his state of mind/tailspin/descent to Hell...

Unless you've walked a mile in the shoes of someone who's been sexually abused, you can't pass judgment on what a victim did/didn't do. How many horrific stories of bothers and sisters, of mothers remaining silent after they and family members were all molested by a "father figure" will it take before people understand that a broken psyche is not that easily fixed, that a human being who's had to live through the most painful, degrading, inhuman situations you can possibly imagine loses all sense of reality, justice, morality and virtue?

The healing process is a lifetime of hurt, of learning to cope with a broken soul. To even bring up the fact that Fleury shoulda/coulda/woulda "come out" and expose his abuser is the real hypocrisy. Who cares about "commanding respect" when all one is trying to do is trying to find resolution after being reduced to less-than-nothing by a predator who's sucked your soul dry and manipulated you like a lifeless puppet?

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12-15-2011, 01:50 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I still stand by what I said.

Why?

Not one person posting on this thread would stand in support of Fleury if their son was molested and ***** by James while working as "Coach" of the team that "Victim of Coach James" Theo Fleury co-owned.

Not one.

But I am the ****ing retard for pointing that out.

While you all are crying for Theo Fleury, please shed a tear for the kids that were molested and ***** while Coach James worked for Fleury. Those kids are the real victims in this story.
Seriously, answer that. That is what you don't understand. How the victim feels. TF is a victim not an abuser.

He didn't enable anyone. He was a victim.


Last edited by macavoy: 12-15-2011 at 12:27 PM. Reason: edited at the request of Southern Hab
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Old
12-15-2011, 01:59 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I must say the article was not really needed, but it did shed light on a fact I did not know about Fleury and James. I sympathize with what happened to Fleury... how can any human being not? I'm glad that Fleury is on a quest to bring awareness to child abuse. I also feel that victims should not feel pressure to speak out unless they are ready to.

But at the same time, I sympathize with the kids and parents of the kids who had to play under James as a coach... INCLUDING under Fleury's reign as GM. This article is the first time I read about that part of Fleury's life, and I am very upset that he enabled James even under his mental conditions. If my kids were playing for his team at this point, and I found out that he let this monster coach my kid knowing what he was capable of, I would never forgive him... but that's just me.

I'm sure Fleury feels bad about enabling James... and that is the way it should be.
I have two kids, and I'd probably die if I learned that they had been exposed to a known sexual predator. I'm not making excuses for Fleury, but seeing as he was probably one of 15 or 20 "owners" of a Junior team (as it's often the case), he probably had no say in the decision of hiring James as coach.

Should he have come out and exposed his abuser? Of course! But was he strong enough mentally/physically at that time of his life to face reality, stand up in front of ownership and say "this guy can't be coaching kids, he's a sexual predator",spilling his guts in front of the whole world? Again, walk a mile in one's shoes...

I agree that Fleury shouldn't be a poster boy for abuse. But who should, really? Another bad choice of words, and proof that the article was clearly written with shock value in mind. "Poster boy for abuse"? Say what? Spokesperson for an organism like HAVOCA, maybe, supporter of child abuse victims, or however else you want to phrase it, but poster boy for abuse, FFS?

Garbage journalism at its best.

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12-15-2011, 02:10 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
yes, they are the victims of the predator Graham James... that's the part you seem incapable or unwilling to understand.
And Fleury knew it was happening and kept him in a position to do so... that's the part you choose to ignore.

We can all agree that it was a terrible thing that Fleury was a victim... no one is arguing this point. He enabled James, and that's what is upsetting. He will be the first to admit he did wrong there... because he did! Psychological problems or not.

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12-15-2011, 02:15 AM
  #272
macavoy
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
And Fleury knew it was happening and kept him in a position to do so... that's the part you choose to ignore.
.
What your ignoring is that Fleury was abused as a kid before he could develop a sense of right and wrong.

He had that taken away as a kid, he never grew up to be a functioning adult with a proper sense of right and wrong.

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Old
12-15-2011, 02:23 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
And Fleury knew it was happening and kept him in a position to do so... that's the part you choose to ignore.

We can all agree that it was a terrible thing that Fleury was a victim... no one is arguing this point. He enabled James, and that's what is upsetting. He will be the first to admit he did wrong there... because he did! Psychological problems or not.
Read this, and let me know if you still can say without a doubt that Fleury was in any condition (not position, condition) to expose his abuser.

Quote:
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is a debilitating condition that follows a terrifying event. Often, people with PTSD have persistent frightening thoughts and memories of their ordeal and feel emotionally numb, especially with people they were once close to. PTSD, once referred to as shell shock or battle fatigue, was first brought to public attention by war veterans, but it can result from any number of traumatic incidents. These include kidnapping, serious accidents such as car or train wrecks, natural disasters such as floods or earthquakes, violent attacks such as a mugging, ****, or torture, or being held captive. The event that triggers it may be something that threatened the person's life or the life of someone close to him or her. Or it could be something witnessed, such as mass destruction after a plane crash.
Whatever the source of the problem, some people with PTSD repeatedly relive the trauma in the form of nightmares and disturbing recollections during the day. They may also experience sleep problems, depression, feeling detached or numb, or being easily startled. They may lose interest in things they used to enjoy and have trouble feeling affectionate. They may feel irritable, more aggressive than before, or even violent. Seeing things that remind them of the incident may be very distressing, which could lead them to avoid certain places or situations that bring back those memories. Anniversaries of the event are often very difficult.

PTSD can occur at any age, including childhood. The disorder can be accompanied by depression, substance abuse, or anxiety. Symptoms may be mild or severe—people may become easily irritated or have violent outbursts. In severe cases they may have trouble working or socializing. In general, the symptoms seem to be worse if the event that triggered them was initiated by a person—such as a ****, as opposed to a flood.

Ordinary events can serve as reminders of the trauma and trigger flashbacks or intrusive images. A flashback may make the person lose touch with reality and reenact the event for a period of seconds or hours or, very rarely, days. A person having a flashback, which can come in the form of images, sounds, smells, or feelings, usually believes that the traumatic event is happening all over again.

Not every traumatized person gets full-blown PTSD, or experiences PTSD at all. PTSD is diagnosed only if the symptoms last more than a month. In those who do have PTSD, symptoms usually begin within 3 months of the trauma, and the course of the illness varies. Some people recover within 6 months, others have symptoms that last much longer. In some cases, the condition may be chronic. Occasionally, the illness doesn't show up until years after the traumatic event.
Enabler?

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12-15-2011, 02:53 AM
  #274
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
And Fleury knew it was happening and kept him in a position to do so... that's the part you choose to ignore.

We can all agree that it was a terrible thing that Fleury was a victim... no one is arguing this point. He enabled James, and that's what is upsetting. He will be the first to admit he did wrong there... because he did! Psychological problems or not.
i'm not ignoring anything.

quite frankly, it's very apparent whom in this thread does and doesn't "get it".

this whole "fleury enabled James" line of thinking originates from a faulty, or at the very least, poorly informed, premise.


James is the only guilty party in this story... and even there I find myself somewhat hesitant, in that I know nothing of his back story. From what we do know, he sounds like a serial predator, but do we know what caused this in him? Was he himself victim of abuse early in life which set him on the destructive path he followed?

In any case, whatever his history, he actively prayed on people who were vulnerable, perhaps the most reprehensible and indefensible behavior a human can engage in.

Then we have Fleury... a person who was victim of horrible abuse. A person who is well known to have struggled immensely with drugs, alcohol and depression ( if not directly caused by his abuse, surely worsened by it).
At one point in his life, before he had found the courage, confidence, peace of mind, to come out and openly acknowledge the abuse he suffered & seek help for the way it was negatively impacting his life, he found himself in a business situation that brought his abuser back into his life (and let's be honest here, it's not like Fleury directly hired or worked with James).

At that time, for Fleury to act on his knowledge of James as the predator that he is, would have meant "coming out of the closet" about his abuse...

Hickey (and apparently you, and thankfully only a small number of others in this thread) attacks Fleury for this, essentially calling him a coward for not speaking out then, and a hypocrite for doing so now... and that fundamentally reveals a complete lack of understanding of what being the victim of abuse can, and often is, all about.

wether Fleury stayed quiet out of shame, helplessness, fear, pride, or even, as Hickey has no issue insinuating, out of greed, no one but Theo himself will ever really know.

the research is pretty clear, however, and that he didn't confront his abuser then is far more consistent with expected behavior, than some heroic notion that he should have stepped forward and nailed the *******.


Fleury (and I have met the man several times and seen him in action advocating on behalf of this cause, despite perhaps not viewing him as an altruistic saint, it seems pretty clear that he is at heart a good person) probably hates himself more than anyone else ever could/should for having allowed James to remain at large for so long... for having "enabled" him...

and really, think about it for a second from Fleury's pov... do you think he feels any worse about having invested in a team that hired James, than he does for simply not having spoken out from the beginning?

in his eyes, every day that he stayed quiet after the abuse, is another day where some other kid like him was subject to that abuse, because he stayed quiet.

the guilt around that doesn't change or get worse because he later had a professional connection to him... think about it for a minute.


and that's precisely why it is so moronic to try to sit on some moral pedestal and call out the man for having been exactly what he was... a victim... someone who felt powerless... someone incapable (even if in his own mind) of stopping or confronting his tormentor.


the whole schtick about "what if your kid was abused by James while playing for the hitmen... wouldn't you hold fleury accountable" is completely bogus.

as a father, were my child to be abused, I would want the abuser to be held accountable, and I would want any individual who knew actual, current abuse, to also be held accountable.
but would I feel anger, or the need to "call-out", a man who himself had been abused, and at the time of my childs abuse was still so ****ed up that he remained silent???

only a cynical person devoid of empathy could walk that path...

if anything, I would feel pity for that man, and if/when he found the courage to speak up, and chose to do so loudly and aggressively, well then I would applaud his courage and hope that eventually my child would be inspired to do the same.


again, it comes down to one simple thing you seem completely unable to grasp... Fleury was a victim. Victim's of abuse are not "cured" or "healed" or "better" the minute the abuse stops. For some it takes months, others years, still others never recover.

It does not excuse any of their future behavior, but it does put it into a different context.

as it is, Fleury's "crime" is that he didn't speak out about what happened to him... while that ensured James would remain at large, it is a far cry from him knowing of future abuse situations and turning a blind eye, or worse, engaging in that behavior himself.

arguing that he should be "called out" because his path crossed James again prior to him being "ok" enough to confront him is nothing short of shameful and reveals a stunning lack of basic human empathy and understanding.

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Old
12-15-2011, 02:56 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Universe View Post
Of course he doesn't get the full value of the book but what I was stating was the books earning in SIX weeks.

And it's great that he gives to charities. I don't have any money but I still manage to volunteer in my community for at least eight hours a week and nobody is calling me a hero.

Easy to say would haves too. If he was never abused, he would never have made those choices to waste what many players work their entire lives to get too. He lost a LOT of money due to his choices and it was his choice to release the book at that time.
Sure they were his choices.

Choices made by someone who was clearly NOT THINKING RATIONALLY.

Thats the thing... the abuse messes up your mind. You don't think like a normal human being. To judge him on that scale is completely ridiculous.


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I'm not saying it was strictly for money but there are people who never made it to the NHL and had the chances or money Theo had but had to go through the same thing.
As a famous celebrity who went through a lot of ****... don't you think Fleury speaking up and bringing attention to the issue does a lot for those people who never made it to the NHL? Don't you think it helps to bring awareness to all victims. Why should he be criticized for it.

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