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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-12-2011, 11:00 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post


Never said he did know but article aside, is it wrong to say justice is served when the crime is known? Unforunately, Fleury waited and this guy got a pardon. Am i blaming fleury? hell no. Just saying, the guy admitted fleury was okay to keep it secluded, and that it was understandable, he just said "don't blame legal system when you let him walk away". In a sense, it is hypocritical of fleury? I don't blame him though but it's kind of odd. If Fleury would've came forward earlier rather than just kennedy, this would've never happened. Again, I don't blame fleury and respect his choice but Hickey tried to relate the fact if you don't come forward, the justice system can't act and you can't blame them. It's an obvious and factual statement, but it's in bad taste to bring it up IMO. Everyone knows, but you just don't say it.
^ this

he probably regrets it deeply, but honestly, I didn't even know about this, so in so far as it being informative, it is. It's sort of the flavour of the month with all the football scandals in the states and I think what LL said in the underlined part is extremely true. Honestly, I just can't get over how he gave the guy a coaching job. I am actually starting to see how this story, while awkward, has some merit in being published. Nobody should have to experience that, not Fleury, and no one else due to Fleury's indirect actions either.

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Old
12-12-2011, 11:01 PM
  #52
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Pat Hickey has a point - that not enough credit is given to Sheldon Kennedy, who was the first to come out and admit what happened, and if Fleury defended Kennedy earlier it would have been great support and lead to a quicker result.

But like far too many journalists, and Hickey is one of the better ones at least by the low bar of Montreal sports journalism standards, he shoots himself in the foot with sensationalism.

By calling Fleury a hypocrite he undermines just how difficult it is to admit that you were sexually abused. He mention how difficult it is, and how distracting it would have been for a star like Fleury to admit this as a player, and yes to some degree by being willing to work with James, Fleury failed to prevent further abuse. But it sounds like Hickey is trying to compare him to Joe Paterno or something.

That's ridiculous. None of us who never had to deal with anything like this could understand just how much psychological damage it could do. Fleury was probably in denial, and struggling to move on. We all know about his substance abuse problems too, I'm surprised Hickey didn't blame him for that too.

I'm not going to call for Hickey's resignation but he should issue a personal apology to Fleury.

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12-12-2011, 11:02 PM
  #53
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He didn't do that. Read again. He didn't.

He called him a hypocrite for allowing the scourge to permeate when it was Kennedy who really uncovered the damage. Fleury said nothing, then blamed people for not stopping it, then essentially enabled it. That's what Hickey DID say was reprehensible. He NEVER blamed him for not saying anything initially.
Okay... I've re-read it.

I see what you're saying here and it's not as bad as I had originally read. Yikes... I see the man's point. I still don't think the piece should've been written and I still have a great deal of sympathy for Fleury but it's not as bad as I originally read.

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12-12-2011, 11:03 PM
  #54
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newspaper journalists are the weakest critics out there.most have never come close to playin a sport beyond elementary school,yet they get paid good bucks to "write"about hockey,football,etc.i dont know how it is out east,but here in vancouver ,sports writers get way less than no respect,as they should. they are clowns pure and simple.

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12-12-2011, 11:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I think we all agree with each other on some level - that the piece was clumsily written, but let me paint this scenario (not that this is the case)

If you had a kid who was playing for James who was hired by Fleury who blasted others for not protecting kids...would you be pissed at Fleury? Probably even MORE given what he himself has been through. It's possible that PH was more aghast at that scenario and tbh if I was one of those kids parents', I'd crucify Fleury. It's awful what happened to him, but to potentially allow it to happen to others. I don't know the full story apparently, cuz I don't know how THAT was allowed to happen.
No offense but you need to do some reading about impacts on victims of sexual assault. Many of them are complete emotional messes and not in position to make rational decisions.

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12-12-2011, 11:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
I've read it and I've analyzed it. Hickey's facts are correct but this is not a black or white issue that anyone should pass judgment on against a victim of such horrific crimes. Fleury was a complete mess and a lost soul (because of James) when for whatever reason he was part owner of a team that James coached. Are you saying the abuser/victim relationship is clearcut and not complex? Somebody else mentioned David Frost/Mike Danton (there is the entire Brampton Four clan for that matter who have all defended Frost in cult-like fashion). Fleury should also not be called a hypocrite for going after the justice system now instead of doing it when he was in a horrible place mentally as a result of being victim to horrific crimes.

Hickey is showing his age here. He's the one with horrible judgment.
Of course the relationship is complex. The point is that even IF you are a victim, part of the problem is the secrecy. It's not Fleury's fault, not at all, but it's at least his responsibility as an owner (the victim card is strong, but it's just not enough to justify it) NOT to hire James. I know you said his feelings were complicated and you're absolutely right, but I see where Hickey has a point in saying it's hypocritical to blame a system when he himself is part of that system. Otherwise it becomes...systemic. I don't think he meant to sully Fleury, just to point out that EVERYONE must be vigilant in this issue. But I respect all differing opinions.

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12-12-2011, 11:05 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
newspaper journalists are the weakest critics out there.most have never come close to playin a sport beyond elementary school,yet they get paid good bucks to "write"about hockey,football,etc.i dont know how it is out east,but here in vancouver ,sports writers get way less than no respect,as they should. they are clowns pure and simple.
lol.

clowns that blow-up twitter and whose articles get their own thread on hfboards

I guess that pretty much sums up most of us

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12-12-2011, 11:07 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post

Hickey is showing his age here. He's the one with horrible judgment.
and Fleury gets a pass even though he's shown terrible judgement on several occasions?
So, is it do as i say and not as I do?
Hold everyone else but yourself to higher standards?

I understand it, not sure I agree with it. Guy takes or gives himself a pass and then proceeds to blast people; governments etc cuz he was a victim? but when another victim turned to him for support fleury turned his back on the guy. Back then kennedy was questioned on many levels due to the allegations-was looking for support yet found none.
Get it, don't understand it. then to call for a guys job for putting facts in print? its a head shaker

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12-12-2011, 11:11 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
No offense but you need to do some reading about impacts on victims of sexual assault. Many of them are complete emotional messes and not in position to make rational decisions.
Whether it's rational or not, what you're saying (no offense) is that Fleury can do whatever he wants, or rather not react responsibly to something because years later he is an emotional mess? So there is absolutely no onus on Fleury to prevent that hiring situation from happening? Why it happened is understandable (I'm not debating that), but after what Kennedy did (again, it's about how he actually stepped up...also an emotional mess, etc.) it seems unbecoming of someone to allow the same thing to happen to others. Let's not make it personal about each other since no one here knows what the other person has had experience with, I'm just saying that these situations cannot be kept silent or at the very least whether he is a victim or not, he is by definition being hypocritical. By putting the "he was messed up" argument in, it's distracting from the very true fact that at one point he was too confused to not hire the coach who assaulted him and the next second he's blaming others. Right or wrong, it is hypocritical.

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12-12-2011, 11:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Read the article and I don't think a lot of people read it correctly. Hickey says himself that Fleury should not have had to go through that. The tone is a little unapologetic, but essentially he is making the point that Fleury chose to stay silent for his career, ostensibly (which is totally fine), but Kennedy, having many problems devoted himself to putting James in the defendant seat. No one is to blame for that, although Kennedy should be seen as a courageous person (not taking anything away from Fleury), but what struck me as odd, which Pat points out is that Fleury HIRED the guy to be the coach of his team!!! The first word that comes to mind honestly is, hypocrite IF Fleury is charging others with keeping sex offenders away from kids. It's just a ridiculous situation, but because Fleury can twist it to make it sound like Hickey is talking about Fleury's reaction/silence to being abused, it makes PH look like he's violating a sacred line.

Fact: Fleury allowed the person who assaulted him sexually to coach the team he owned.
Fact: He accused the govt of not protecting children from such people

what does that say? I'm sure Hickey didn't mean it the way it's being interpreted, but this will become a media circus and people who don't want to analyze the argument will stop at "child abuse" and not read the details. I would hate for Pat to leave his job and what I'm saying isn't biased. I read the article. It's the hiring part that really struck me. Maybe Hickey should have known that subtleties are going to be missed when dealing with such a taboo topic.
I read the entire article closely and still think it reflects poorly on Hickey. It's possible to point out a couple of true facts, but not be informed enough on the topic at hand to relay an informed opinion.

To point out that Fleury was the co-owner of a team that James coached seems like a damning fact, but it's really not unheard of for victims of abuse to act this way. The impact of being a victim of male sexual abuse leads to a wide and varying spectrum of behaviours, including unbearable guilt, denial and in some cases elevated trust in the abuser (this is counter-intuitive for non-victims to understand).

It's not a case of Hickey being too subtle, it's about Hickey passing unworthy judgement on someone in an area in which he is grossly ignorant.

As I alluded to earlier, it's easy for Hickey to judge Fleury's actions as an outsider. However, in doing so, he has revealed his ignorance about how male sexual abuse victims respond to their abuse. Just because Kennedy acted one way, that doesn't imply that Fleury was able to respond the same way on the same timeline. It's only natural that such traumatic experiences would lead to varied responses in individuals (even though there were some similarities, like substance abuse).

I still think that the heart of Hickey's argument was worth expressing (that Kennedy is a relatively unrecognized hero), but that he horribly failed in getting that point across. Hickey chose the more provocative low road in making his point by criticizing another (higher profile) victim in the same case; that was wrong, unnecessary, hurtful and worthy of a retraction and an apology.

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Old
12-12-2011, 11:13 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
and Fleury gets a pass even though he's shown terrible judgement on several occasions?
So, is it do as i say and not as I do?
Hold everyone else but yourself to higher standards?
Do you even know anyone who got sexually abused? It sure looks like you don't cause you wouldn't feel this way otherwise.

Theo Fleury is a victim, you just can't call him a hypocrite for what he did or did not do.

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12-12-2011, 11:18 PM
  #62
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Unfortunately, I do.
The discussions 'round here have been extensive, sadly.

i'll leave you with this: if you throw out accountability and standards what's the point?

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12-12-2011, 11:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Whether it's rational or not, what you're saying (no offense) is that Fleury can do whatever he wants, or rather not react responsibly to something because years later he is an emotional mess? So there is absolutely no onus on Fleury to prevent that hiring situation from happening? Why it happened is understandable (I'm not debating that), but after what Kennedy did (again, it's about how he actually stepped up...also an emotional mess, etc.) it seems unbecoming of someone to allow the same thing to happen to others. Let's not make it personal about each other since no one here knows what the other person has had experience with, I'm just saying that these situations cannot be kept silent or at the very least whether he is a victim or not, he is by definition being hypocritical. By putting the "he was messed up" argument in, it's distracting from the very true fact that at one point he was too confused to not hire the coach who assaulted him and the next second he's blaming others. Right or wrong, it is hypocritical.
No. I'm just saying that Fleury shouldn't be called a hypocrite for something he did/didn't do when he was an emotional mess and not in a state to make rational decisions. A lot of victims of sexual assault take the horrific crimes against them to their grave without saying anyone to anything (and they shouldn't be condemned by anyone who hasn't been victim to the same type of crimes). It's not fair game to bash a victim for how long they took to take action. He wasn't emotionally ready before. He is now and he's doing something about it.

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12-12-2011, 11:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Hickey was trying to make a valid point (that Kennedy is a relatively unappreciated hero in this situation), but failed in making that clear through his lack of tact as a journalist.

He decided to take on a touchy subject with no sensitivity to, or understanding of how victims of abuse respond to their situations. The fact that Hickey has no idea that different victims will respond differently to abuse shows that he is grossly ignorant about the topic to the point that he really shouldn't have tried to voice his opinion on it in a public forum

Kennedy doesn't need any comparison with Fleury for his actions to shine brightly and be viewed as brave and heroic. Hickey couldn't realize this and ruined what was a great angle for a story.
Very, very well said.

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12-12-2011, 11:32 PM
  #65
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While I don't think it was intended to be as harsh as it came across, but when you include a line that says the victim gave the predator years of freedom it crosses the line by quite a bit. that line in itself really was the one that pissed me off when reading.

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12-12-2011, 11:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
I read the entire article closely and still think it reflects poorly on Hickey. It's possible to point out a couple of true facts, but not be informed enough on the topic at hand to relay an informed opinion.

To point out that Fleury was the co-owner of a team that James coached seems like a damning fact, but it's really not unheard of for victims of abuse to act this way. The impact of being a victim of male sexual abuse leads to a wide and varying spectrum of behaviours, including unbearable guilt, denial and in some cases elevated trust in the abuser (this is counter-intuitive for non-victims to understand).

It's not a case of Hickey being too subtle, it's about Hickey passing unworthy judgement on someone in an area in which he is grossly ignorant.

As I alluded to earlier, it's easy for Hickey to judge Fleury's actions as an outsider. However, in doing so, he has revealed his ignorance about how male sexual abuse victims respond to their abuse. Just because Kennedy acted one way, that doesn't imply that Fleury was able to respond the same way on the same timeline. It's only natural that such traumatic experiences would lead to varied responses in individuals (even though there were some similarities, like substance abuse).

I still think that the heart of Hickey's argument was worth expressing (that Kennedy is a relatively unrecognized hero), but that he horribly failed in getting that point across. Hickey chose the more provocative low road in making his point by criticizing another (higher profile) victim in the same case; that was wrong, unnecessary, hurtful and worthy of a retraction and an apology.
Great post!

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12-12-2011, 11:40 PM
  #67
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Unfortunately, I do.
The discussions 'round here have been extensive, sadly.

i'll leave you with this: if you throw out accountability and standards what's the point?
I think the issue is that he's bashing Fleury based on his actions years ago, BEFORE he came out, which ignores the pshychological trauma people who go through what he did experience.

None of us can know for sure why Fleury stayed quiet as long as he did, but Hickey's piece implies that Fleury shouldn't be as publicly fawned after as a hero given that he "enabled" James at a time where Kennedy was already out and pursuing justice...

Hickey may be right... in fact, my personal opinion of Fleury based on what I've seen of him in public first hand... well let's just say that abuse or not, he's not avoiding the spotlight and not avoiding opportunities to market himself...

but the fact is that he did experience a tragedy, one that is far more prevalent than any of us care to realize, and given his stature -regardless of how long it took him to come forward and whatever the reasons, he is bringing attention to the very serious issue of child abuse in a way that Kennedy never could.

Is Fleury a perfect human being with nothing but altruistic motives... probably not, but who is?

With so many jackasses out there hogging the spotlight, Hickey really had no business targetting a guy who is going after the worst scum of them all.

Fleury was abused... and he is now speaking up, loudly & emotionally. Hickey picked the wrong guy to call out, plain and simple, and ironically, the underlying reason behind the article (imo, it's pretty obvious that Hickey is not a fan of Fleury, and saw an opportunity to "put him in his place"... if his focus was truly about celebrating Kennedy, he's been around long enough to know that his piece would do more to highlight Fleury than it would Kennedy), is the very same thing he's indirectly accusing Fleury of being... an ego-driven hypocrite.

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Old
12-13-2011, 12:27 AM
  #68
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Some of the comments here are absolutely terrifying.

If anything, I blame the Gazette for not demanding a re-write. Hickey did not make his point clear whatsoever.

If he wanted to write a column praising Sheldon Kennedy for coming out quickly, he could have done it without criticizing Fleury. Fleury was a mess after what happened to him. A mental mess. His alcohol and drug problems are quite known. He didn't "protect" James. That's a disturbing thought.

Some people need to recognize what exactly they are defending.

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12-13-2011, 12:38 AM
  #69
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People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.

Nobody should question Fleury’s decision to remain silent. What should be questioned is Fleury’s continuing role in James’s life. At the time of Kennedy’s revelations, James was the coach of the Calgary Hitmen. He was one of the co-owners of the junior team in the Western Hockey League. One of the other owners was Theoren Fleury. Here was someone who had suffered abuse at the hands of Graham James. Here was someone who knew that James had abused other players. Here was someone who was exposing other children to the same sexual predator.

Fleury has been through enough counselling to know there’s a word for someone who acts in this fashion - enabler.
It's more than political correctness. Hickey has the good fortune to look at sexual abuse as someone who's never been a victim of it. What could he possibly know about what it's like to be Theoren Fleury or what is to have suffered what he suffered??
This is what you get when sports writers write about anything but. He was rash and ignorant for writing that article and he should apologize profusely.

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12-13-2011, 12:41 AM
  #70
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Some of the comments here are absolutely terrifying.

If anything, I blame the Gazette for not demanding a re-write. Hickey did not make his point clear whatsoever.

If he wanted to write a column praising Sheldon Kennedy for coming out quickly, he could have done it without criticizing Fleury. Fleury was a mess after what happened to him. A mental mess. His alcohol and drug problems are quite known. He didn't "protect" James. That's a disturbing thought.

Some people need to recognize what exactly they are defending.

He calls Fleury a hypocrite in the headline!! I think his intentions are quite clear...

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12-13-2011, 12:43 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
I read the entire article closely and still think it reflects poorly on Hickey. It's possible to point out a couple of true facts, but not be informed enough on the topic at hand to relay an informed opinion.

To point out that Fleury was the co-owner of a team that James coached seems like a damning fact, but it's really not unheard of for victims of abuse to act this way. The impact of being a victim of male sexual abuse leads to a wide and varying spectrum of behaviours, including unbearable guilt, denial and in some cases elevated trust in the abuser (this is counter-intuitive for non-victims to understand).

It's not a case of Hickey being too subtle, it's about Hickey passing unworthy judgement on someone in an area in which he is grossly ignorant.

As I alluded to earlier, it's easy for Hickey to judge Fleury's actions as an outsider. However, in doing so, he has revealed his ignorance about how male sexual abuse victims respond to their abuse. Just because Kennedy acted one way, that doesn't imply that Fleury was able to respond the same way on the same timeline. It's only natural that such traumatic experiences would lead to varied responses in individuals (even though there were some similarities, like substance abuse).

I still think that the heart of Hickey's argument was worth expressing (that Kennedy is a relatively unrecognized hero), but that he horribly failed in getting that point across. Hickey chose the more provocative low road in making his point by criticizing another (higher profile) victim in the same case; that was wrong, unnecessary, hurtful and worthy of a retraction and an apology.
Amen

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12-13-2011, 12:50 AM
  #72
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If Theo Fleury wants Hickey to be fired, as he's clamouring for on Twitter, perhaps he should learn how to spell his ****ing name.

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12-13-2011, 12:56 AM
  #73
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I totally understand the sensitivity of the issue and I know Fleury is a victim, but he is also a hypocrite. Make no mistake, had he not have had a book to peddle, he may never have come out with his abuse. As was stated earlier, he never came to Kennedy's aid when he needed it. He allowed James to coach his team of kids. He allowed James to roam free for years. Yes, Fleury was a victim, but in his quest to remain relevant, his motives have been and always will be questionable.

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12-13-2011, 01:02 AM
  #74
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Sheeesh, why would Hickey even go there. Theres going to be a huge outcry for him to be canned, I'd be surprised if he survives.

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12-13-2011, 01:10 AM
  #75
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I totally understand the sensitivity of the issue and I know Fleury is a victim, but he is also a hypocrite. Make no mistake, had he not have had a book to peddle, he may never have come out with his abuse. As was stated earlier, he never came to Kennedy's aid when he needed it. He allowed James to coach his team of kids. He allowed James to roam free for years. Yes, Fleury was a victim, but in his quest to remain relevant, his motives have been and always will be questionable.
Wow.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

It must be real cozy inside your home without any understanding of what true psychological damage is. May you never truly relate, but hopefully one day educate yourself on it.

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