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The last of Pat Hickey?

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12-13-2011, 01:20 AM
  #76
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Isn't this kind of the point of journalism?

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12-13-2011, 03:05 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Pandemic View Post
Isn't this kind of the point of journalism?
To make wild accusations based on assumptions? No it isn't.

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12-13-2011, 03:13 AM
  #78
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OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.

Theoren Fleury's experience with Graham James... I relate too quite well, because I also was victimized by a hockey coach.
I understand why he never wanted to say anything... Even to those that cared for me most. I still to this day, have never told my father, mother, sisters, et al. what happened to me in my youth... I find it hard to even say it to a computer screen and even post it here, rather anonymously... In my life, only 2 friends, and my wife I have ever told what happened. But I think I have to say how hard it was to say anything, and the innate fear I had in ever saying anything about it.

I understand that even though it is not Theo's fault, the guilt he carries on nearly a daily basis... I understand how he feels about the situation (roughly at least), and how awful it can make you feel... I hated myself for a very long time, and had a self destruct phase that my close ones have little to no understanding about.

Before anyone could ask.. I couldnt tell my father... who is the Strongest man I have ever known, and a true rock of a person, because I feel it would change the way he sees me. It would change his perception of pride in himself, and his pride in me, changing my life for the better. Sure, it probably would make sense of certain things, but there is an innate difference to be had that I want absolutely no part of. My folks, are deaf. They built this fantastic life, in which I am proud of them for. Imagine if you will, telling him... I simply cant. Now imagine being a Canadian hockey icon, and having to tell Canada... that's even crazier.

Theo told the world. On his terms. When he got help, cleaned up, and felt it was time to do so. He's a warrior. I cannot imagine how brave he is. Whether Kennedy did it sooner, doesnt make a difference. As for why James was coaching Fleury's team... has nothing to do with enabling, but more to do with the 'Stockholm syndrome' mixed in with some vigilante-ism... I'm sure he felt responsible for Graham James, and what he does in his off time. I certainly DONT think Fleury allowed for ANYONE involved with that team to be left alone with Graham... I think he made it his mission to ensure that NEVER happened.

But for Pat Hickey... to have written something so poorly thought out is certainly NOT journalism. He's using his piece in this case as a political POV, to cut down a guy personally, without understanding the context behind the whole thing. If Fleury feels it's worth Hickey's job... Then I agree wholeheartedly, because what ultimately got me to write this post, was visiting on his Twitter page, and reading the comments back at him... calling him a bunch of names, and bringing it back to sexuality. I dont think people can understand what kind of nightmare that is. Especially to a victim of this kind of crime.

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12-13-2011, 04:27 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.

Nobody should question Fleury’s decision to remain silent. What should be questioned is Fleury’s continuing role in James’s life. At the time of Kennedy’s revelations, James was the coach of the Calgary Hitmen. He was one of the co-owners of the junior team in the Western Hockey League. One of the other owners was Theoren Fleury. Here was someone who had suffered abuse at the hands of Graham James. Here was someone who knew that James had abused other players. Here was someone who was exposing other children to the same sexual predator.

Fleury has been through enough counselling to know there’s a word for someone who acts in this fashion - enabler.
********.

Unless you've been a victim; unless you've walked a mile in Fleury's shoes, and I don't wish that on my worst enemy. But unless you've been there.

Its impossible to understand the psychological toll and the manipulation that someone like James put Fleury through, and criticizing someone who was clearly suffering from Stockholm Syndrome at the time from not speaking out... sorry, but Hickey is dead, dead wrong on this.

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12-13-2011, 04:31 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
Not what he said. He said that Fleury was being hypocrite by blasting the judicial system for giving him 2 months of freedom while Fleury gave him many years.

I don't agree with James getting any freedom, just like Hickey, but the way Fleury called out the justice system was just uncalled for.
The judicial system doesn't have to deal with any of the issues Fleury has to. They aren't effected in the same way psychologically. Sorry but this is Bull ****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Hickey speaks the truth
Think of what he says for a moment

Also i'm old enough to remember when Kennedy came out and looked to Fleury for support, he ended up getting a resounding silence from Fleury.

You can draw parallels to Paterno if you wish, considering the time that when James was a coach of the hitmen, Fleury an owner in the leaugue et al.

Not sure Fleury has a leg to stand on, if you hold others to higher ideals, make sure you stand the test first
Not comparable to Paterno in any way, shape or form.

Only by acknowledging the psychological impact such abuse had on Theo Fleury, and other victims like him, can we understand the problem.

Fleury isn't Paterno, a normal and healthy individual who did nothing.... Fleury was a deeply troubled, psychologically conflicted and effected individual when Kennedy was coming forward. A man who was still suffering from the abuse and whose head was clearly messed up by it.

Just because he wasn't ready to come forward on that day, wasn't ready to tell his tormentor NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NO MORE! He doesn't deserve scorn for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Fleury chose NOT to play the victim when he first had the chance. When Kennedy looked to him for support, Fleury turned away.
The real victim here is Kennedy.
Do itake away what Fleury went thru? Absolutely not!!
But he chose his path, live with it. We are all responsible for our actions, there's no take backsies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Paterno apparently knew what sandusky was doing, as Fleury knew first hand the history of a coach named james.
Both chose to do little if nothing. Paterno got fired because of it, Fleury is escaping the firing line because he was once abused. yet the parallel i believe is there
This is seriously the biggest crock of **** I've ever read on this site.

You cannot just ignore the psychological impact that this abuse had on Fleury, nor even begin to understand what the man was going through at the time.

You just cant

And criticizing him for not coming forward sooner? All you are doing is discouraging a ton of people who have lived through abuse, and been living in secret for many years from not coming forward to face their abusers down the road.

The worst thing about the abuse is the years of mental anguish it leaves after the fact, and not everyone is ready to deal with it when YOU or PAT HICKEY believes they should. It takes time to come to grips.

The judicial system doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt.... and neither does Joe Paterno... but there are important reasons for that.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 12-13-2011 at 04:38 AM.
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12-13-2011, 04:40 AM
  #81
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While I can't have an opinion about this fiasco I just want every one on the Gazette sports payroll fired. Start with hickey for all I care, as long as they all go.

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12-13-2011, 04:44 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
and Fleury gets a pass even though he's shown terrible judgement on several occasions?
So, is it do as i say and not as I do?
Hold everyone else but yourself to higher standards?

I understand it, not sure I agree with it. Guy takes or gives himself a pass and then proceeds to blast people; governments etc cuz he was a victim? but when another victim turned to him for support fleury turned his back on the guy. Back then kennedy was questioned on many levels due to the allegations-was looking for support yet found none.
Get it, don't understand it. then to call for a guys job for putting facts in print? its a head shaker
Of course you can't understand it.

You have 0 clue what someone like Fleury went through, thats why you don't understand it.

Fleury was NOT in the proper state to deal with this crap in 1997 when Kennedy came forward.

To blame Fleury and call him an enabler because he didn't recover as quickly as Kennedy did? Thats the worst kind of insensitivity and callous disregard for the effects that abuse has on victims.

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12-13-2011, 04:50 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
I totally understand the sensitivity of the issue and I know Fleury is a victim, but he is also a hypocrite. Make no mistake, had he not have had a book to peddle, he may never have come out with his abuse. As was stated earlier, he never came to Kennedy's aid when he needed it. He allowed James to coach his team of kids. He allowed James to roam free for years. Yes, Fleury was a victim, but in his quest to remain relevant, his motives have been and always will be questionable.
Unbelievable.

Wow, just wow.

This is unreal.

I don't even know what to write as a response to this... Its such a terrible, terrible opinion of what is happening here.

I guess Fleury should have just woken up one day and flipped the light switch and just like that, he would have been able to deal with the psychological trauma.

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12-13-2011, 07:15 AM
  #84
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WOW, I normally enjoy Hickey's articles. They are usually much better, he comes at things with a dry sense of humour. But this?! This was trash journalism best reserved for News of the World and other tabloid columns. Also, don't forget to lay some of the blame on the Editor as well, as he or she let this go to print.


Come on....blaming Fleury? that's like saying that girl deserved it because of the dress she was wearing.....or blaming a 15 yo girl for not telling her mother her step dad was molesting her.

Fleury obviously had issues to sort out before he could even comprehend what had happened to him and how to deal with the shame and pain of reliving it all while he dealt with reporting it.

Geez

And shame on all those here that feel Hickey is in the right on this. He has no standing morally or ethically on this.

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12-13-2011, 07:48 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.

Nobody should question Fleury’s decision to remain silent. What should be questioned is Fleury’s continuing role in James’s life. At the time of Kennedy’s revelations, James was the coach of the Calgary Hitmen. He was one of the co-owners of the junior team in the Western Hockey League. One of the other owners was Theoren Fleury. Here was someone who had suffered abuse at the hands of Graham James. Here was someone who knew that James had abused other players. Here was someone who was exposing other children to the same sexual predator.

Fleury has been through enough counselling to know there’s a word for someone who acts in this fashion - enabler.
EXACTLY! Fleury went into a business relationship with james and placed him in a situation where he would continue to sexually assault young boys.

Everyone excuses Fleury for doing that because he was a victim.

So if it comes out that James was also a victim of sexual assault as a kid will you guys excuse him also?

Agreed, there's a world of difference between Fleury & James. James went out and did it whereas Fleury knowingly put him in a position to do it.

All Hickey is saying is that Fleury is in no position to say that the Canadian justice system allows James to continue assaulting young boys when Fleury himself did the very same thing.


Last edited by onice: 12-13-2011 at 08:15 AM.
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12-13-2011, 08:12 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
People tend not to read - Pat is right but in this day of political correctness and with all the recent scandals, god forbid if you say anything somewhat critical about a victim.

Nobody should question Fleury’s decision to remain silent. What should be questioned is Fleury’s continuing role in James’s life. At the time of Kennedy’s revelations, James was the coach of the Calgary Hitmen. He was one of the co-owners of the junior team in the Western Hockey League. One of the other owners was Theoren Fleury. Here was someone who had suffered abuse at the hands of Graham James. Here was someone who knew that James had abused other players. Here was someone who was exposing other children to the same sexual predator.

Fleury has been through enough counselling to know there’s a word for someone who acts in this fashion - enabler.
I just read the article this morning and i have to say i have zero issue with what Hickey wrote. IMO he makes a fair point...how the heck does Fleury put James (or allow him to stay) in that role when he knows first hand the types of horrible things James has done in the past?

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12-13-2011, 08:14 AM
  #87
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OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.
Great post Ghost, thanks for sharing.

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12-13-2011, 08:22 AM
  #88
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Great post Ghost, thanks for sharing.
I agree...thank you for sharing. I was going to delete my post from above after reading yours but i'll leave it up. Suffice it to say you have definitely given me a different perspective on the situation and i think i have a better understanding as to why Fleury may have been silent during those years working with James.

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12-13-2011, 08:22 AM
  #89
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Terrible article.

But I'm more troubled with the stupidity of some of the posts in this thread, by people on here agreeing with Hickey and/or defending him.

You don't blame the victim. Ever. For how they dealt with it, what they did or didn't do, or should have done or could have done better, or the timeline on which they came forward. Calling the guy an "enabler" and "hypocrite" is dispicable.

Greg Brady on Fan 590 brought up a good point - take this out of a hockey context, and replace Fleury with a female victim. Hickey would have been fired already. If it's not okay to blame a female victim, then why is it okay to blame a male victim?

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12-13-2011, 08:24 AM
  #90
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Pat Hickey was actually right, should not be fired, should be a lot more careful with his words though but he's right.

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12-13-2011, 08:24 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.
Thanks for putting this up, great post, it couldn't have been easy. Hopefully this helps us all learn something about the issue.

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12-13-2011, 08:28 AM
  #92
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Unbelievable.

Wow, just wow.

This is unreal.

I don't even know what to write as a response to this... Its such a terrible, terrible opinion of what is happening here.

I guess Fleury should have just woken up one day and flipped the light switch and just like that, he would have been able to deal with the psychological trauma.
When did he choose to come forward? Victim or not, wasn't the timing in the least bit curious? Just because he was abused, should he get a free pass on people being skeptical on some of his motives? He was a man down to his last penny, so he wrote a book. Being abused did not make Kennedy a hero, he had many stumbles, but no one doubted his motives.

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12-13-2011, 08:29 AM
  #93
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Terrible article.

But I'm more troubled with the stupidity of some of the posts in this thread, by people on here agreeing with Hickey and/or defending him.

You don't blame the victim. Ever. For how they dealt with it, what they did or didn't do, or should have done or could have done better, or the timeline on which they came forward. Calling the guy an "enabler" and "hypocrite" is dispicable.

Greg Brady on Fan 590 brought up a good point - take this out of a hockey context, and replace Fleury with a female victim. Hickey would have been fired already. If it's not okay to blame a female victim, then why is it okay to blame a male victim?
Reading comprehension fail? He didn't blame the victim, all he did is say it's hypocritical of him to whine that the justice system allows him to walk around freely when he basically allowed the same thing. Did Theo care about all those other kids he was probably ****** when he remained silent, was practically in business with the guy? No he didn't do anything and likely other people were affected because he didn't act soon enough.

I'm not trying to say it was Theo's fault, one of my ex girlfriends was sexually abused and I can't even tell you how hard it is for people to come out when that type of thing happens but it doesn't change the fact that he's being a hypocrite here. If he had spoken up when he should have countless other lives could have been helped.

He isn't blaming Theo, just saying it's a pretty poor choice of person to be used as the poster boy for this type of thing, the guy who spoke out when it happened is a better choice. If you can't comprehend what he's saying... well **** idk what to say.

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12-13-2011, 08:31 AM
  #94
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Hickey is guilty of talking out of his @ss once again. He has no idea what he was writing about, but as usual the Gazoo just prints pretty much anything. He is irrelevant, as is the Montreal Gazette.

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12-13-2011, 08:47 AM
  #95
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Tough subject indeed and I haven't read Theo's book. But I do know he's never had issue with making disparaging remarks about others publically and in his book. The fact that a writer calls him a hypocrite and he's up in arms about that makes him, in my eyes, hypocritical so that part actually seems fitting albeit for a different reason.

IMO, Hickey's focal point is questioning the business relationship that Fleury entered into with James. Is the answer to that in Fleury's book? Anybody read it?

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12-13-2011, 08:51 AM
  #96
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EXACTLY! Fleury went into a business relationship with james and placed him in a situation where he would continue to sexually assault young boys.

Everyone excuses Fleury for doing that because he was a victim.

So if it comes out that James was also a victim of sexual assault as a kid will you guys excuse him also?

Agreed, there's a world of difference between Fleury & James. James went out and did it whereas Fleury knowingly put him in a position to do it.

All Hickey is saying is that Fleury is in no position to say that the Canadian justice system allows James to continue assaulting young boys when Fleury himself did the very same thing.
Good post. The fire Hickey bandwagon is a pure joke.

I think Fleury is seen as an opportunist regarding his past. I know I always have.

Being sexually abused is a terrible thing, and Hickey acknowledged that.

But Fleury comes across as needing the spot-light, and leveraging all his life experiences in a bid for $ympathy and $elf-promotion.

Frankly, we live in a world of victims, and Fleury is simply a man who falls in one of these categories. The fact that a journalist can not publish a critical article on a man that devote his life to be as much in the public spotlight as possible, is plenty hypocritical in itself.

Again, I'm not saying it's his fault that he was abused. So don't go there.

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12-13-2011, 09:04 AM
  #97
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so much for free speech.

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12-13-2011, 09:18 AM
  #98
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I thought it was a good article. I find way too much political correctness in today's world and way too little sense for personal responsibility and doing what is right. We are still supposed to be a free country and have free speech. If I don't like something whether in print or on tv I can choose to ignore it. Back in my day, the world wasn't as 'sensitive' to being 'hurt' in print. We are spending way too much time tiptoeing around people's feelings rather than telling it like it is. The immediate reaction is always to shut someone up, fire them, expunge them from the record. Good Lord, what have we become as a society? Well, we see the results of our actions nowadays. It started in the 60's when a bunch bleedinghearts politicans took control of Parliament and began changing all the rules and all the absolutes. Hickey is entitled to his opinion even if you don't share it. Good on him for writing it.

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12-13-2011, 09:32 AM
  #99
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Even the subject line of this thread, "The Last of Pat Hickey?" implies Hickey said or did something wrong. Quite comical.

I don't know the half of what Fleury went through, but anyone that points fingers should be prepared for scrutiny.

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12-13-2011, 09:37 AM
  #100
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Wow.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

It must be real cozy inside your home without any understanding of what true psychological damage is. May you never truly relate, but hopefully one day educate yourself on it.
I dunno man...I'm still kinda on both sides in this issue, but I honestly wonder if Fleury would have said anything if he hadn't written a book about it.

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