HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

The last of Pat Hickey?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-13-2011, 11:03 AM
  #126
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,893
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
I'm not calling for Hickey's job, I'm just not sure it's in good taste to call someone who's afraid of talking about being abused as a child a hypocrite. His article should be praising Kennedy, not damning Fleury.

I don't get Fleury's latest comments, what the hell is that supposed to prove?
Wait what? Why can we not call him a hypocrite for being a hypocrite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.
The justice system can not do anything without the victims coming forward. Yes I get it, it is difficult for Fleury to come forward, but that doesn't change the fact that Fleury is criticizing what HE HIMSELF had to do to help the justice system take action.

Fleury criticizing the justice system, but not acting sooner to help the justice system, in fact makes Fleury a hypocrite.

CrAzYNiNe is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:04 AM
  #127
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 16,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeConstantin74 View Post
My mistake, he didn't say it himself but he 'retweeted' it. Why retweet something as stupid as this?

aljackthedj Aljack
Funny the only person to attack u about this happens to b a writer from QC, the province with the highest child sex abuse rate @TheoFleury14
11 hours ago
Retweeted by TheoFleury14
That definitely annoyed me too, making it sound like Hickey represents Quebec or something.

Et le But is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:07 AM
  #128
Bob Cole
Registered User
 
Bob Cole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,789
vCash: 500
Not surprising that the PC crowd is all over this. Oh the outrage

Good for Hickey for speaking his mind. Dont agree with everything he says but he does raise valid points.

Bob Cole is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:14 AM
  #129
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post

The justice system can not do anything without the victims coming forward. Yes I get it, it is difficult for Fleury to come forward, but that doesn't change the fact that Fleury is criticizing what HE HIMSELF had to do to help the justice system take action.

Fleury criticizing the justice system, but not acting sooner to help the justice system, in fact makes Fleury a hypocrite.


It's suddenly easier to see why many victims don't come forward at all, when idiots like Hickey are only going to be critical of them when they do. This is just more "blame the victim" lunacy. Fleury didn't come forward way back when, it's not like he doesn't have an excuse.

Now years later, kudos that he does come forward. He has every right to criticize the justice system which failed him and basically everyone else by letting James out on the street.

It doesn't even make him a hypocrite. You're a hypocrite if your purported beliefs differ from your real beliefs or your actions. Not your actions 20 years ago, your actions now. Fleury's beliefs (justice system failed by letting James out on the street) are completely in line with his actions (coming forward and telling his story).

CGG is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:16 AM
  #130
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 2,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I dunno man...I'm still kinda on both sides in this issue, but I honestly wonder if Fleury would have said anything if he hadn't written a book about it.
A book might be a marketing tool for Snooki but for Fleury it was closure. It seems with the advent of the internet message board, people write 100,000 words all of the time they don't understand the value of it anymore in an autobiography.

Ghost # 1, that took a lot. I hope this is a first step for you to speak to others. I hope the people defending Hickey read your post and understand better how those emotions end up imprisoning and controlling you.

People tend to look at Mike Danton as crazy with his relationship with his coach, but that's not "crazy". That's a human being in need of serious help being manipulated by the one who holds the most power over him through psychological and physical abuse. Free will is hard to use on the dark side of the moon.

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:22 AM
  #131
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,096
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
Canadians can say anything they want...to a certain limit (see Human Rights Tribunal). A journalist cannot, due to those "consequences" you mentioned.

Some may question Fleury's motives...but how many feel the justice system is in need of some changes when it comes to punishments (I know my brother who is a cop wants harsher terms for these parasites).

And there are better ways to question his motives.

Also, if he's calling Fleury a hypocrite than I guess that Joe Sakic and every other player on James’ teams that have never come forth with an ounce of nerve are also hypocrites.



Edit: Agnostic, I do appreciate your discussion on this as well as being very much on point and respectful...a rareity in this day and age
One line I considered putting into my last post, but took it out last second because I thought it would get political:

On the other hand, any voice that calls to attention the lack of effectiveness and common sense that exists in Canada's judicial system should be amplified not censured.

I have professional experience in that area, and I could go on and on, but I'd rather not get this thread shut down.

I appreciate your on point and respectful discussion as well.

Agnostic is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:25 AM
  #132
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,893
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post


It's suddenly easier to see why many victims don't come forward at all, when idiots like Hickey are only going to be critical of them when they do. This is just more "blame the victim" lunacy. Fleury didn't come forward way back when, it's not like he doesn't have an excuse.

Now years later, kudos that he does come forward. He has every right to criticize the justice system which failed him and basically everyone else by letting James out on the street.

It doesn't even make him a hypocrite. You're a hypocrite if your purported beliefs differ from your real beliefs or your actions. Not your actions 20 years ago, your actions now. Fleury's beliefs (justice system failed by letting James out on the street) are completely in line with his actions (coming forward and telling his story).
OK I don't believe you read my entire post.

Let me give you the summary.

Fleury is being a hypocrite by saying the justice system failed, when he in fact failed the the justice system by not speaking sooner.

Now the problem is not that he didn't speak soon enough, but that he criticizes the justice system. He has no right to say that the justice system failed him because he had to help them himself. Again, Fleury doesn't have to come forward at any time, but he also can not criticize the justice system that needed him to convict the criminal that abused him.

Even shorter now:
Fleury is not a bad person for not coming forward sooner, but the justice system can only do so much without victims coming forward. He can be upset with the legal system, but making a public statement that the justice system is at fault, well sorry Fleury, you are just as at fault since you didn't come forward.

Yes yes, I get it. It is hard for him to of done so 10 years ago... This doesn't change the fact that he can not criticize the justice system since he himself had to come forward and help the justice system.

I feel like a broken record here, I really hope some of you can grasp that Fleury should just not criticize the justice system publicly. That is why he is a hypocrite.

a bit about your bold part. It's quite clear that Hickey is not being critical of him for coming out and being honest, he is however questioning him criticizing a system that needed his help. I am sure if Fleury doesn't criticize the justice system, Hickey has no article to write. The way I read the article was that Fleury has to realize that he is a part of the problem of the justice system, but how can the justice system be better without witnesses coming forward. This isn't a Canadian problem, but all justice systems around the world need concrete evidence and witnesses to prosecute those on trial. I don't see how Fleury being a hypocrite changes how one should construe the fact that he was abused.


Last edited by CrAzYNiNe: 12-13-2011 at 11:32 AM.
CrAzYNiNe is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:30 AM
  #133
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 2,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
OK I don't believe you read my entire post.

Let me give you the summary.

Fleury is being a hypocrite by saying the justice system failed, when he in fact failed the the justice system by not speaking sooner.

Now the problem is not that he didn't speak soon enough, but that he criticizes the justice system. He has no right to say that the justice system failed him because he had to help them himself. Again, Fleury doesn't have to come forward at any time, but he also can not criticize the justice system that needed him to convict the criminal that abused him.
It wasn't the justice system that got molested, it was Theoren Fleury! Get this through your head!

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:34 AM
  #134
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,893
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
It wasn't the justice system that got molested, it was Theoren Fleury! Get this through your head!
Sorry but your statement is not at all productive. You can be molested and a hypocrite. If you don't help the system, don't say it's not good enough.

let's use a hockey euphemism. If a player cherry picks and criticizes the defence, is he a hypocrite?

CrAzYNiNe is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:37 AM
  #135
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 2,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Sorry but your statement is not at all productive. You can be molested and a hypocrite. If you don't help the system, don't say it's not good enough.
But he did help the system when he finally got his life together. This whole idea that Fleury has to be held to the same standard as the entire Canadian judicial system is silly. Fleury is one man who got molested and afterward suffered serious psychological damage from it. What is the system's reason?

Again, Fleury is one man. Fleury is a person. The Canadian Judicial System is not one man, nor is it a person. The standards are completely different.

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:44 AM
  #136
deandebean
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Gatineau, câlisse
Country: uriname
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeConstantin74 View Post
My mistake, he didn't say it himself but he 'retweeted' it. Why retweet something as stupid as this?

aljackthedj Aljack
Funny the only person to attack u about this happens to b a writer from QC, the province with the highest child sex abuse rate @TheoFleury14
11 hours ago
Retweeted by TheoFleury14
I doubt that it's the truth. The highest child sex abuse? Didn't even know it was a statistic. And if it were true, I doubt it's because we do it more here; more about the fact that kids here go public with their cases. I'll be as cliché as the aljackthedj and write that in Western Canada, admitting you're a victim of a pedophile is saying your feeble, and it doesn't look good at the farm with your buddies. Now. That was as cliché as what he wrote.

Worst part is TheoFleury (descendance franco) retweeting it. Shows the brains he's got. Fortunately for him, he played hockey.

deandebean is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 11:46 AM
  #137
Serious HABit
Registered User
 
Serious HABit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Forum Ghosts
Country: Coral Sea Islands
Posts: 779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
Not surprising that the PC crowd is all over this. Oh the outrage

Good for Hickey for speaking his mind. Dont agree with everything he says but he does raise valid points.

sums up my thoughts exactly.

Serious HABit is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 12:36 PM
  #138
Halifaxhab
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
One line I considered putting into my last post, but took it out last second because I thought it would get political:

On the other hand, any voice that calls to attention the lack of effectiveness and common sense that exists in Canada's judicial system should be amplified not censured.

I have professional experience in that area, and I could go on and on, but I'd rather not get this thread shut down.

I appreciate your on point and respectful discussion as well.
The bolded statement sums up perfectly what should have been the target of the article, as it would have aided Sheldon Kennedy's cause more than what he has done instead.

Fleury's motivations aside, whatever anyone may believe they were, calling out an out of date and inadequate criminal justice system is exactly what is needed.

Case in point James recieved a pardon before this latest set of charges....a pardon! Any time spent in jail prior to sentencing....until just recently, has been credited at 3 days to 1 (3 days served for every 1 in jail prior). Judges too often giving minimums or house arrest....etc.

The target of all the angst on these boards should be directed towards your local MP and MLA/MPP to force them to budge on this issue.

Halifaxhab is online now  
Old
12-13-2011, 12:41 PM
  #139
Bill McNeal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,158
vCash: 50
The only thing Hickey is guilty of is handling a very delicate subject with little to no tact (and perhaps very little research).

That being said, how would you feel if your child was put in position to be molested because of the actions of somebody else? I doubt you'd be very forgiving of Fleury because of his past. I don't pretend to understand what Fleury went through, but there's a difference between not reporting James and actively bringing him into the fold of another hockey operation. He put others in danger, even though that clearly wasn't his intention.

And through all this Fleury has been guilty of lacking tact as well. Calling Hickey a pedophile sympathizer, slandering an entire province... Nobody looks good from all of this.

Bill McNeal is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 12:48 PM
  #140
overlords
Global Moderator
Canada's Mod
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Trolling Brian Wilde
Posts: 24,275
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
That definitely annoyed me too, making it sound like Hickey represents Quebec or something.
Pretty sure he was born in Ontario or something.

__________________



"overlords is one of my favorite people on this entire site." - Hfboards
overlords is online now  
Old
12-13-2011, 12:50 PM
  #141
Boris Le Tigre
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Boris Le Tigre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: More Toast !
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 5,368
vCash: 500
Hickey, I thought, was a yank

Boris Le Tigre is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 12:55 PM
  #142
HankyZetts
Twi2ted
 
HankyZetts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Sorry but your statement is not at all productive. You can be molested and a hypocrite. If you don't help the system, don't say it's not good enough.

let's use a hockey euphemism. If a player cherry picks and criticizes the defence, is he a hypocrite?
Honestly, this is the stupidest analogy I've ever read in my life.

Do you realize how hard it would be to come forward as a man (especially as well-respected of a man as Theo is/was) with news like this?

HankyZetts is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:05 PM
  #143
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
But what is Hickey saying wrong? He acknowledges the difficulties of living with being abused. The only thing he says that can be argued is Fleury a hypocrite or not? Well how can you say the justice system is flawed because it grants him months free when Fleury himself granted him years of freedom by not speaking up.

I understand the difficulties of speaking up, I will never argue that someone who has been hurt yesterday will be willing to talk about it today. But Fleury should realize that he himself left Graham free by not speaking up, especially in 97 when the case was before court because of Kennedy. I won't go into the whole publicity thing (in todays age any exposure seems to be good exposure). I just don't believe Fleury has the right to criticize the justice system when he himself had an opportunity to aid the justice system almost 15 years ago and didn't. Yes it may of been hard, and as Hickey alludes to he was more then a fringe NHL player but in the end you should criticize yourself before others. Could I of done more? If the answer is yes, well you should keep your comments to yourself and live with the decision you take.

Hickey has every right to discuss Fleury and his actions that he takes in a public medium. Hickey simply called him a hypocrite for saying the justice system is flawed because Graham gets to walk free. If Fleury spoke up years ago, who knows the situation would be like today? (I agree with Fleury being a hypocrite in the situation of today. Do I think it was easy for him then, or even now to talk about what happened? Of course not, but this isn't the issue with the article)
This is a guy whose mind was seriously messed up at the time. Sure he was the owner of the Hitmen, but he was also doing massive amounts of drugs, and even tried to kill himself while this was going on in the late 90s.

He was a messed up individual, psychologically.... torn between his own guilt... the controlling and dominating influence the abuser had over him... the emotions of trying to be a husband and father... the pressures of being a top athlete in a Canadian Market with a ton of media and fan pressure... the pressures of being falsely labelled a homosexual if he did come out with this abuse story, in a sport that 14 years later still hasn't found an openly gay player, and was certainly even more backwards in its attitudes then.... and a guy who was taking massive amounts of drugs to deal with this. He also tried to commit suicide on at least 2 occasions.

To say he was a hypocrite for not coming forward in 1997, or that he was an enabler is a little much.

Beakermania* is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:06 PM
  #144
PyrettaBlaze
Registered User
 
PyrettaBlaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,992
vCash: 500
Sports editor from the Gazette is on TSN990 right now.

http://tsn.ca/montreal/listen/

PyrettaBlaze is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:24 PM
  #145
loudi94
Master of my Domain
 
loudi94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lethbridge, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,048
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
Has anyone in here been sexually abused as a child?

If not I don't think you can go around blasting Fleury for the way he handled things earlier in his life. I can't even imagine the toll that takes on someones state of mind.
99+% of posters here never played nor coached in the NHL, yet here we are blasting coaches, players and fans like we know it all.

Opinions...we all have them. We are entitled to them. To the poster that said Fleury's book was closure, in my opinion I respectfully disagree. He needed the money and the story of his abuse sold copies. Did he use the proceeds for profit or to "make a difference"? I don't care either way, but I don't think this man is a hero or role model.

loudi94 is online now  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:28 PM
  #146
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
The only thing Hickey is guilty of is handling a very delicate subject with little to no tact (and perhaps very little research).

That being said, how would you feel if your child was put in position to be molested because of the actions of somebody else? I doubt you'd be very forgiving of Fleury because of his past. I don't pretend to understand what Fleury went through, but there's a difference between not reporting James and actively bringing him into the fold of another hockey operation. He put others in danger, even though that clearly wasn't his intention.

And through all this Fleury has been guilty of lacking tact as well. Calling Hickey a pedophile sympathizer, slandering an entire province... Nobody looks good from all of this.
Good post...sums up alot of my thoughts on this subject as well.

Like you i cannot relate to what Fleury went though. But i am a father, so my natural thought path is that of a father of a young boy and wondering how Fleury could potentially put other kids in the path of danger by having James as the coach of the team he (at least partially) owned.

Patty Roy is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:30 PM
  #147
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeConstantin74 View Post
My mistake, he didn't say it himself but he 'retweeted' it. Why retweet something as stupid as this?

aljackthedj Aljack
Funny the only person to attack u about this happens to b a writer from QC, the province with the highest child sex abuse rate @TheoFleury14
11 hours ago
Retweeted by TheoFleury14
I don't think Fleury is doing himself any favors the way he is responding to this article.

Take the author to task and educate him (and the public) that can't relate to what Fleury went thru.

Patty Roy is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:36 PM
  #148
overlords
Global Moderator
Canada's Mod
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Trolling Brian Wilde
Posts: 24,275
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humpty Dumpty View Post
Hickey, I thought, was a yank
I think that's Jack Todd.

overlords is online now  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:38 PM
  #149
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I think that's Jack Todd.
No i'm pretty sure Hickey is American.

Patty Roy is offline  
Old
12-13-2011, 01:59 PM
  #150
Habs10Habs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Habs10Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 52,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.
It must have been tough, but I"m glad you were able to share this with us. Thank you Ghost.

Habs10Habs is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.