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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-13-2011, 02:07 PM
  #151
Lafleurs Guy
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Having re-read it and thinking about it over the last little bit, I still think that Hickey shouldn't have written the article the way he did. It's not as bad as I originally thought (I misread what he was trying to say) but I still think it shows a lack of understanding and compassion on his part. The article shouldn't have been written.
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
Hickey was trying to make a valid point (that Kennedy is a relatively unappreciated hero in this situation), but failed in making that clear through his lack of tact as a journalist.

He decided to take on a touchy subject with no sensitivity to, or understanding of how victims of abuse respond to their situations. The fact that Hickey has no idea that different victims will respond differently to abuse shows that he is grossly ignorant about the topic to the point that he really shouldn't have tried to voice his opinion on it in a public forum

Kennedy doesn't need any comparison with Fleury for his actions to shine brightly and be viewed as brave and heroic. Hickey couldn't realize this and ruined what was a great angle for a story.
This is pretty much how I feel.

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Old
12-13-2011, 02:12 PM
  #152
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I agree with the majority. I don't find the article to be as bad as I'd originally heard it was. Though Hickey should have used some compassion and worded it a little differently. I don't think he should be axed, though he should provide a written apology to Theo.

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12-13-2011, 02:22 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Yarfangor View Post
My question is how did the Gazette allow this to be posted? Its devils advocate but a really piss poor way of doing it from a pretty reputable journalist. Hes not going to be winning any fans after this one tahts for sure.
Maybe because what Hickey posted was the TRUTH.

Sometimes the truth hurts. But in the end, the truth will always be that.......the truth.

Political correctness will lead to complete censorship in all of media, not only in Canada but in the US.

I cannot believe the over-reaction from a lot of the people here.

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Old
12-13-2011, 02:30 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.

Theoren Fleury's experience with Graham James... I relate too quite well, because I also was victimized by a hockey coach.
I understand why he never wanted to say anything... Even to those that cared for me most. I still to this day, have never told my father, mother, sisters, et al. what happened to me in my youth... I find it hard to even say it to a computer screen and even post it here, rather anonymously... In my life, only 2 friends, and my wife I have ever told what happened. But I think I have to say how hard it was to say anything, and the innate fear I had in ever saying anything about it.

I understand that even though it is not Theo's fault, the guilt he carries on nearly a daily basis... I understand how he feels about the situation (roughly at least), and how awful it can make you feel... I hated myself for a very long time, and had a self destruct phase that my close ones have little to no understanding about.

Before anyone could ask.. I couldnt tell my father... who is the Strongest man I have ever known, and a true rock of a person, because I feel it would change the way he sees me. It would change his perception of pride in himself, and his pride in me, changing my life for the better. Sure, it probably would make sense of certain things, but there is an innate difference to be had that I want absolutely no part of. My folks, are deaf. They built this fantastic life, in which I am proud of them for. Imagine if you will, telling him... I simply cant. Now imagine being a Canadian hockey icon, and having to tell Canada... that's even crazier.

Theo told the world. On his terms. When he got help, cleaned up, and felt it was time to do so. He's a warrior. I cannot imagine how brave he is. Whether Kennedy did it sooner, doesnt make a difference. As for why James was coaching Fleury's team... has nothing to do with enabling, but more to do with the 'Stockholm syndrome' mixed in with some vigilante-ism... I'm sure he felt responsible for Graham James, and what he does in his off time. I certainly DONT think Fleury allowed for ANYONE involved with that team to be left alone with Graham... I think he made it his mission to ensure that NEVER happened.

But for Pat Hickey... to have written something so poorly thought out is certainly NOT journalism. He's using his piece in this case as a political POV, to cut down a guy personally, without understanding the context behind the whole thing. If Fleury feels it's worth Hickey's job... Then I agree wholeheartedly, because what ultimately got me to write this post, was visiting on his Twitter page, and reading the comments back at him... calling him a bunch of names, and bringing it back to sexuality. I dont think people can understand what kind of nightmare that is. Especially to a victim of this kind of crime.
Thanks for speaking out on this. I hope it brings you some closure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Maybe because what Hickey posted was the TRUTH.

Sometimes the truth hurts. But in the end, the truth will always be that.......the truth.

Political correctness will lead to complete censorship in all of media, not only in Canada but in the US.

I cannot believe the over-reaction from a lot of the people here.
Hickey doesn't have a full understanding of the impact that abuse can have on people man. People react in all kinds of different ways. He doesn't know how this affected Fleury or what he was thinking... he should've just left it alone.

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Old
12-13-2011, 02:32 PM
  #155
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I can't believe some people are so defensive against this article. He isn't blaming Fleury for anything other than being a hypocrite for one thing!

Fleury got mad at the justice system for freeing James for 2 months, when earlier in his life, he had him as the coach of the team he owned after knowing what James did!

Hickey isn't calling him a hypocrite for not coming out sooner, but more for knowingly endangering other kids!

Yes Fleury was a victim, which is a terrible thing, but he still had this ****er as a coach on a team he owned... knowing that he was most likely doing to those kids what he did to him.

I don't think this article was really needed, but honestly it isn't false...

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12-13-2011, 02:35 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Hickey speaks the truth
Think of what he says for a moment

Also i'm old enough to remember when Kennedy came out and looked to Fleury for support, he ended up getting a resounding silence from Fleury.

You can draw parallels to Paterno if you wish, considering the time that when James was a coach of the hitmen, Fleury an owner in the leaugue et al.

Not sure Fleury has a leg to stand on, if you hold others to higher ideals, make sure you stand the test first
Who are you to say how a victim should react? you people are joke... He was sexually abused you can't tell me how he should/can't react unless you've been through the same thing. I figured i'd see some sane thinking habs fans in here when I saw this thread title. I guess wrong.

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12-13-2011, 02:40 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Thanks for speaking out on this. I hope it brings you some closure.

Hickey doesn't have a full understanding of the impact that abuse can have on people man. People react in all kinds of different ways. He doesn't know how this affected Fleury or what he was thinking... he should've just left it alone.
There are a lot of horrible things that happen to people. Abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture etc.

As a victim of abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture, does that moniker of "victim" give a person the carte blanche authority to enable other people to BECOME victims.

That is the issue here.

Fleury did not have to come out publicly against James. Nor did he have to co-own a team with the predator as coach continuing his abuse and creating MORE VICTIMS.

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12-13-2011, 02:40 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.

Theoren Fleury's experience with Graham James... I relate too quite well, because I also was victimized by a hockey coach.
I understand why he never wanted to say anything... Even to those that cared for me most. I still to this day, have never told my father, mother, sisters, et al. what happened to me in my youth... I find it hard to even say it to a computer screen and even post it here, rather anonymously... In my life, only 2 friends, and my wife I have ever told what happened. But I think I have to say how hard it was to say anything, and the innate fear I had in ever saying anything about it.

I understand that even though it is not Theo's fault, the guilt he carries on nearly a daily basis... I understand how he feels about the situation (roughly at least), and how awful it can make you feel... I hated myself for a very long time, and had a self destruct phase that my close ones have little to no understanding about.

Before anyone could ask.. I couldnt tell my father... who is the Strongest man I have ever known, and a true rock of a person, because I feel it would change the way he sees me. It would change his perception of pride in himself, and his pride in me, changing my life for the better. Sure, it probably would make sense of certain things, but there is an innate difference to be had that I want absolutely no part of. My folks, are deaf. They built this fantastic life, in which I am proud of them for. Imagine if you will, telling him... I simply cant. Now imagine being a Canadian hockey icon, and having to tell Canada... that's even crazier.

Theo told the world. On his terms. When he got help, cleaned up, and felt it was time to do so. He's a warrior. I cannot imagine how brave he is. Whether Kennedy did it sooner, doesnt make a difference. As for why James was coaching Fleury's team... has nothing to do with enabling, but more to do with the 'Stockholm syndrome' mixed in with some vigilante-ism... I'm sure he felt responsible for Graham James, and what he does in his off time. I certainly DONT think Fleury allowed for ANYONE involved with that team to be left alone with Graham... I think he made it his mission to ensure that NEVER happened.

But for Pat Hickey... to have written something so poorly thought out is certainly NOT journalism. He's using his piece in this case as a political POV, to cut down a guy personally, without understanding the context behind the whole thing. If Fleury feels it's worth Hickey's job... Then I agree wholeheartedly, because what ultimately got me to write this post, was visiting on his Twitter page, and reading the comments back at him... calling him a bunch of names, and bringing it back to sexuality. I dont think people can understand what kind of nightmare that is. Especially to a victim of this kind of crime.
I'm sorry to hear that man. As i said previously some people who will judge how a victim acts is very disturbing. The old saying "once you've walked a mile in his/her/my shoes.."

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Old
12-13-2011, 02:42 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Fleury did not have to come out publicly against James. Nor did he have to co-own a team with the predator as coach continuing his abuse and creating MORE VICTIMS.
Well said sir, agree 100%

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12-13-2011, 03:06 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There are a lot of horrible things that happen to people. Abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture etc.

As a victim of abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture, does that moniker of "victim" give a person the carte blanche authority to enable other people to BECOME victims.

That is the issue here.

Fleury did not have to come out publicly against James. Nor did he have to co-own a team with the predator as coach continuing his abuse and creating MORE VICTIMS.
?

your totally missing it SH...

it's not about giving someone "carte blanche" b/c they've suffered abuse, it's about having enough perspective, and enough empathy, to realize that the victims of abuse deal/cope with their demons in different ways.

that Fleury owned a team that hired his former tormentor years later, BEFORE coming out publicly about the abuse he suffered, doesn't diminish or take away Fleury's credibility in speaking out against him now...

if he were to go an hire him now, after having finally gone public with his abuse and confronted his abuser, ok... then maybe one could make a case that he's just a self-serving ***** looking to make a buck.


Walk a mile in his (fleury's) shoes before passing judgement on him... even if he's passing judgement on James (and from all indications, rightfully so).

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12-13-2011, 03:12 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
?

your totally missing it SH...

it's not about giving someone "carte blanche" b/c they've suffered abuse, it's about having enough perspective, and enough empathy, to realize that the victims of abuse deal/cope with their demons in different ways.

that Fleury owned a team that hired his former tormentor years later, BEFORE coming out publicly about the abuse he suffered, doesn't diminish or take away Fleury's credibility in speaking out against him now...

if he were to go an hire him now, after having finally gone public with his abuse and confronted his abuser, ok... then maybe one could make a case that he's just a self-serving ***** looking to make a buck.


Walk a mile in his (fleury's) shoes before passing judgement on him... even if he's passing judgement on James (and from all indications, rightfully so).
I just can't see how people give fleury a free pass for knowingly endangering kids by having James as the coach of his team! Whether he went public about it yet or not, how do some people give him a free pass, especially since he went through it himself? He knows how terrible of a thing it was!

If my son played on his team, and I just found out that Fleury knew this guy was a predator, I would be furious at Fleury, whether he was a victim or not

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12-13-2011, 03:13 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
?

your totally missing it SH...

it's not about giving someone "carte blanche" b/c they've suffered abuse, it's about having enough perspective, and enough empathy, to realize that the victims of abuse deal/cope with their demons in different ways.

that Fleury owned a team that hired his former tormentor years later, BEFORE coming out publicly about the abuse he suffered, doesn't diminish or take away Fleury's credibility in speaking out against him now...

if he were to go an hire him now, after having finally gone public with his abuse and confronted his abuser, ok... then maybe one could make a case that he's just a self-serving ***** looking to make a buck.


Walk a mile in his (fleury's) shoes before passing judgement on him... even if he's passing judgement on James (and from all indications, rightfully so).

No, I am not missing the point.

Fleury has whatever credibility to speak out or not. He was there.

And, I have not walked in Fleury's shoes either.

I am simply sticking up for Hickey in reporting the truth.

Fleury is being raised up to a higher level than he deserves to be. Yes, he is a victim. However, he is an enabler that allowed more victims to be created. The timing of having James as a coach (before speaking out or after speaking out) is irrelevant. Having him as a coach knowing that he is a predator is the relevancy.

Just because someone was victimized does not give them the OK to turn their back as others become victims. That reality will never change, regardless of having never walked in Fleury's shoes.

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12-13-2011, 03:20 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
If my son played on his team, and I just found out that Fleury knew this guy was a predator, I would be furious at Fleury, whether he was a victim or not
Misplaced anger here, shouldn't you be furious at the sexual predator dirtbag of a coach?

Are female victims that are too scared to speak up about what they've gone through supposed to be blamed for additional sexual assaults that their abuser may or may not have committed? No? Okay, then we have a double standard.

What you're missing here is that Fleury at the time probably didn't view James as a predator. He was messed up. Abuse does some horrible things to someone's mental state. I don't think he ever thought he was "enabling" a predator by hiring this creep as a hockey coach. Read up on Mike Danton to see what kind of power these guys can have over young hockey players and how messed up they can get.

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Old
12-13-2011, 03:27 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
Not surprising that the PC crowd is all over this. Oh the outrage

Good for Hickey for speaking his mind. Dont agree with everything he says but he does raise valid points.
Yes.. the outrage is the fact that a pedophile makes bail and walks free that very day! That's what Fleury's point was. That's why he said the Justice system isnt doing their job. Graham James lived life as a Convicted Sexual Predator, pardoned and allowed to NOT be on the Sex register, like other sex criminals are.
Then we have out west, about a decade ago, where a man actually won in a BC court, the right to have his Child Pornography because it's within his rights as a Canadian citizen to have them... It's not a surprise to have a victim come out and say that Canada has been soft on the issue of Sex crimes, knowing how some of the rulings have turned out to be, and how that pertains to his case personally.

Canada's Justice System HAS been VERY soft at convicting pedophiles. That is Fleury's message. That's his point. Don't get ME wrong... it's not just on this issue where they have been weak (anybody remember the guy in Toronto who killed a 2 1/2 year old girl, and got out in under 3 years, because he did not INTEND for the girl to get shot?).

In that article... Hickey has no sympathy for a victim during HIS trial of the accused. We know James is guilty. We know he's done it more than once, how is he NOT a threat to society is what the question that should be risen... Not the timeline to Theo Fleury's life. It is Fleury who was wronged in this case, not the public, nor james. How Fleury dealt with the issue, and what happened in between (while he suffered, and until his road to recovery) is NOT something that is up to Hickey to say what SHOULD have been done.

Kennedy dealt with his demons in '97. Should Fleury have piped up? Sure... I guess in a frame of mind that holds absolutely NO Worry about the scenario, he should have. He could have dealt with it, healed and probably would have an even better Hockey story written on his behalf. In short... it would have been MORE Beneficial to THEO FLEURY to have not spent the next decade, with thoughts of Suicide, Drug, Gambling and Alcohol binges, and spending day and night hanging out with the underworld of NYC... In short, Hickey FAILS to note the Psychological Trauma that comes as a result of this kind of crime, and how it affects logic. We should just be thankful that Fleury EVER said anything... Because so few people do. Especially when it comes to this. Furthermore, Hickey calls Fleury an 'Enabler'... Again he talks out of his ass, as He's not comprehending the victim, his story, he even fails to recognize what it is that Theo went through, and cheapens the whole thing by saying Sheldon Kennedy is the ONLY hero that abuse victims have when it comes to Hockey and abuse (which is just a dumb blanketing statement)

Im sorry if you think it has to do with being 'Politically Correct'... In Fleury's POV, it has to do with his accused, a CONVICTED Sexual Predator (on more than one boy I might add) getting a Pardon that the Prime Minister even thought was misjustice, then being granted the right to walk free from that Montreal Court Room, as if it was nothing different than a white collar crime. As if he ISNT a Deranged Predator. As if he ISNT DANGEROUS!

That's Fleury's message. It wasn't in efforts to sell anything. It was his right as the plaintiff in this case, to have a say of the turn of events. Because it took 15 years later, should have no bearing on anyone. It shouldn't trivialize the case, what he went through, and who he is as a person. It was merely a statement based on what legal proceedings were going on at that time (rather recently), and how it's rediculous that Jame's rights go in front of EVERYONE ELSES. This guy got a pardon! He could very well have changed his identity, and resumed coaching boys hockey. That is the only issue Fleury is pushing...

Yet it is Hickey who is trying to get in to Fleury's head. Trying to sell us a duplicitous mind, and rationalizing Theoren as an Enabler because of his actions... When, at the end of the day... He's clueless over the whole scenario.

Im not a journalist. I do KNOW however, that in order to publish a decent article, some research SHOULD be done. Hickey just went off the cuff here, and was so over his head, he could only see an attack on Fleury as the correct solution.
Is he right about Kennedy? Sure he is. Sheldon is a shining example of a man with the strength to do what was right, when he felt the time was right. But there is no reason whatsoever to put Fleury and Kennedy on the same page here. Kennedy's case was heard, and he got the conviction on James. However it's Fleury's case that's going on right now. That's why his opinion matters. It's not about who is the 'face' or who is right and wrong... The case is up for trial, and Fleury is the Accuser. Yet Hickey somehow thinks that it's his right to say that Fleury's a hypocrite, because he wasnt ready to deal with his demons the same time Kennedy did. Though even then, they were in completely different stratospheres in terms of who they were at the time. Fleury was a superstar, and an Icon. Kennedy was a grinder, whose career was finishing up. In terms of the public... they would both have gotten different responses.

On twitter... Borje Salming said it best: 'The dude who threw trash on Hickey's car in Philadelphia was an incredible judge of character'.

He deserves the flack for being so shortsighted and callous about the situation. He has the right to free speech... But so does everyone else who want to go on calling him an ignorant ass for having written that trash, and tried to pass it on as informed.

To have placed THIS opinion in the Gazette... places the Gazette in a perilous position that they DONT agree with (that somehow, Fleury SHOULDNT have an opinion in the matter), at the very best... This article is NOT Professional. I just wish Hickey should have to answer Theo's twitter account to all the ******** saying vile trash, trying to cut him down. In some way, he SHOULD be held to account for his actions. If Fleury want's his head... the Gazette should offer it on a silver platter. NOT for Fleury, but for the other victims he callously offends by writing what he considered an informed opinion. Clearly he was uninformed about any of the troubles that comes from this case.

It can be said that a Pen is mightier than a sword. So those who make a living brandishing a pen, and putting it to paper, should be a bit more careful about what is written, and produced. If I was his boss... I would consider dismissing him. Because I wouldn't want anyone to get this paper wrong when it comes to their stance, and child abuse. I KNOW even Hickey said it was wrong... But in a way, he 'enabled' James to have SOME sympathy in the public, which is ludicrous to even think. Even if you dont think so, the result is the same. Fleury, the victim, was victimized by this article. Just by reading what some morons posted on his twitter feed can show this. That is NOT what the newspapers want to convey, that certain circumstances make people just, or unjust.

If Hickey wanted to 'speak his mind'... There was other places to have it heard. It's not even as if he couldnt of just focused on hockey, and allowed another reporter to go on the beat, and follow this story. Nobody held a gun to his head. Ergo, he deserves the flack he's about to receive.

It's really just a damn shame that he went that way. I typically like his write ups on hockey. This article makes me lose a tonne of respect for him though.

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12-13-2011, 03:43 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I just can't see how people give fleury a free pass for knowingly endangering kids by having James as the coach of his team! Whether he went public about it yet or not, how do some people give him a free pass, especially since he went through it himself? He knows how terrible of a thing it was!

If my son played on his team, and I just found out that Fleury knew this guy was a predator, I would be furious at Fleury, whether he was a victim or not
do you also think that women who are abused by their husbands, but stay with them with children, even having more with them (subjecting them to abuse as well), should be "called out" as well?

I mean I absolutely agree with your second point... I would be furious as well... but I think (at least I hope), I'd be far more capable of empathy for him, than say for someone like Paterno who knew about it and turned a blind eye without the "benefit of the doubt" accorded to a victim of abuse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No, I am not missing the point.

Fleury has whatever credibility to speak out or not. He was there.

And, I have not walked in Fleury's shoes either.

I am simply sticking up for Hickey in reporting the truth.

Fleury is being raised up to a higher level than he deserves to be. Yes, he is a victim. However, he is an enabler that allowed more victims to be created. The timing of having James as a coach (before speaking out or after speaking out) is irrelevant. Having him as a coach knowing that he is a predator is the relevancy.

Just because someone was victimized does not give them the OK to turn their back as others become victims. That reality will never change, regardless of having never walked in Fleury's shoes.
No one said it was OK... what people are trying to explain to you is that empathy and understanding go a long way, and people who have had their lives thoroughly turned into nightmares by predators like James, are deserving of those things.

Hickey didn't write that column to expose the truth, he did it to lash out at a guy he doesn't like... journalists do it all the time, but in this instance it showed a tremendous lack of basic human empathy.

There are several different ways Hickey could have called attention to Kennedy (if that were his intent), or even to the truth about Fleury's role in enabling James, without it coming out as a direct attack on Fleury, which was unecessary in this case unless his objective was to call him out for having made mistakes in judgement.

like or hate fleury, he was/is a victim, and whatever his motivations (and to think they are black/white is just silly), he is bringing attention to a very important issue.

that he did some terrible things along the way, short of having abused others himself, what could possibly be gained by Hickey's approach to calling him out? nothing, just settling a personal score, which is what makes it so lamentable.

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Old
12-13-2011, 03:54 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There are a lot of horrible things that happen to people. Abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture etc.

As a victim of abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture, does that moniker of "victim" give a person the carte blanche authority to enable other people to BECOME victims.

That is the issue here.

Fleury did not have to come out publicly against James. Nor did he have to co-own a team with the predator as coach continuing his abuse and creating MORE VICTIMS.
Fleury was a minority owner. He was in no state of mind to come forward and say why James shouldn't be coaching this team when the majority owner wanted to hire a guy who was at the time one of the best coaches in all of junior hockey.

Scenario:

Theoren: I don't think we should hire this guy as coach.
\
Majority owners: Why Theoren, he's a great coach. He coached some Memorial Cup Winning teams, he's got a ton of former players in the NHL. Heck he coached you and Joe Sakic and look at your careers

Theoren: Uh... welll.... I don't like him.

Majority Owners: Sorry Theo, you need a better reason than that. We have the final call on this.


And thats just a question of whether Fleury is ready to admit to other people what James did to him. It doesn't even get into Fleury's state of mind. Fleury says he was and absentee owner who let other people run things, because hockey and drugs was his whole life at the time. He basically just threw in cash as an investment and ignored it.

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12-13-2011, 03:57 PM
  #167
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do you also think that women who are abused by their husbands, but stay with them with children, even having more with them (subjecting them to abuse as well), should be "called out" as well?

I mean I absolutely agree with your second point... I would be furious as well... but I think (at least I hope), I'd be far more capable of empathy for him, than say for someone like Paterno who knew about it and turned a blind eye without the "benefit of the doubt" accorded to a victim of abuse.




No one said it was OK... what people are trying to explain to you is that empathy and understanding go a long way, and people who have had their lives thoroughly turned into nightmares by predators like James, are deserving of those things.

Hickey didn't write that column to expose the truth, he did it to lash out at a guy he doesn't like... journalists do it all the time, but in this instance it showed a tremendous lack of basic human empathy.

There are several different ways Hickey could have called attention to Kennedy (if that were his intent), or even to the truth about Fleury's role in enabling James, without it coming out as a direct attack on Fleury, which was unecessary in this case unless his objective was to call him out for having made mistakes in judgement.

like or hate fleury, he was/is a victim, and whatever his motivations (and to think they are black/white is just silly), he is bringing attention to a very important issue.

that he did some terrible things along the way, short of having abused others himself, what could possibly be gained by Hickey's approach to calling him out? nothing, just settling a personal score, which is what makes it so lamentable.
Excellent post! It's sad how some think the "truth" in this case is purely black and white.

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12-13-2011, 03:59 PM
  #168
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I really don't see what the big deal is. Hickey called Fleury out. Unless the stuff he wrote in the article is false, I agree with Hickey on this one.

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12-13-2011, 04:03 PM
  #169
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Fleury was a minority owner. He was in no state of mind to come forward and say why James shouldn't be coaching this team when the majority owner wanted to hire a guy who was at the time one of the best coaches in all of junior hockey.

Scenario:

Theoren: I don't think we should hire this guy as coach.
\
Majority owners: Why Theoren, he's a great coach. He coached some Memorial Cup Winning teams, he's got a ton of former players in the NHL. Heck he coached you and Joe Sakic and look at your careers

Theoren: Uh... welll.... I don't like him.

Majority Owners: Sorry Theo, you need a better reason than that. We have the final call on this.


And thats just a question of whether Fleury is ready to admit to other people what James did to him. It doesn't even get into Fleury's state of mind. Fleury says he was and absentee owner who let other people run things, because hockey and drugs was his whole life at the time. He basically just threw in cash as an investment and ignored it.
I will not debate your point as I was not in Fleury's shoes (although I will disagree with his enabling which is also as tragic as Fleury's abuse).

Maybe you can help me understand why Fleury blamed "Canada's politicians" for "enabling" after James was sentenced.

Is one type of enabling abuse better/worse than another type of enabling abuse?

The best thing Fleury could have done is to keep his mouth shut after the sentencing.............or stated the truth........that anytime ANYONE enables abuse is wrong and that he was just as guilty as the "Canadian politicians".

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12-13-2011, 04:07 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I will not debate your point as I was not in Fleury's shoes (although I will disagree with his enabling which is also as tragic as Fleury's abuse).

Maybe you can help me understand why Fleury blamed "Canada's politicians" for "enabling" after James was sentenced.

Is one type of enabling abuse better/worse than another type of enabling abuse?

The best thing Fleury could have done is to keep his mouth shut after the sentencing.............or stated the truth........that anytime ANYONE enables abuse is wrong and that he was just as guilty as the "Canadian politicians".
Canada's politicians don't have the psychological and emotional hurdles of being a victim, and speaking out and telling their story that Theo has. Those hurdles are very real, and if he wasn't ready to deal with them 14 years ago... we can't blame him for that.

On the other hand, the Canadian Politicians, Joe Paterno, the Penn State Administration. These are rational individuals coming from a rational state of mind, who are still letting a known (James) or accused (Sandusky) pedofile on the streets, in their facilities, etc...

These people should be capable of dealing with the situation... and have none of the fear, guilt, emotional shame, turmoil, and other emotions going on in their head. They have nothing to hide from in the same way a victim does.

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12-13-2011, 04:07 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Batali Crocs View Post
I really don't see what the big deal is. Hickey called Fleury out. Unless the stuff he wrote in the article is false, I agree with Hickey on this one.
Ignorance is bliss.

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12-13-2011, 04:10 PM
  #172
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7 pages of people mostly defending this tripe, no wonder the habs forum feels like a madhouse.

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12-13-2011, 04:14 PM
  #173
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Ignorance is bliss.
Explain.

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12-13-2011, 04:15 PM
  #174
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OK this is flat out the most difficult post I have ever made. I've erased it, and re-wrote it countless times... But I felt it was something I wanted to say about this.

Theoren Fleury's experience with Graham James... I relate too quite well, because I also was victimized by a hockey coach.
I understand why he never wanted to say anything... Even to those that cared for me most. I still to this day, have never told my father, mother, sisters, et al. what happened to me in my youth... I find it hard to even say it to a computer screen and even post it here, rather anonymously... In my life, only 2 friends, and my wife I have ever told what happened. But I think I have to say how hard it was to say anything, and the innate fear I had in ever saying anything about it.

I understand that even though it is not Theo's fault, the guilt he carries on nearly a daily basis... I understand how he feels about the situation (roughly at least), and how awful it can make you feel... I hated myself for a very long time, and had a self destruct phase that my close ones have little to no understanding about.

Before anyone could ask.. I couldnt tell my father... who is the Strongest man I have ever known, and a true rock of a person, because I feel it would change the way he sees me. It would change his perception of pride in himself, and his pride in me, changing my life for the better. Sure, it probably would make sense of certain things, but there is an innate difference to be had that I want absolutely no part of. My folks, are deaf. They built this fantastic life, in which I am proud of them for. Imagine if you will, telling him... I simply cant. Now imagine being a Canadian hockey icon, and having to tell Canada... that's even crazier.

Theo told the world. On his terms. When he got help, cleaned up, and felt it was time to do so. He's a warrior. I cannot imagine how brave he is. Whether Kennedy did it sooner, doesnt make a difference. As for why James was coaching Fleury's team... has nothing to do with enabling, but more to do with the 'Stockholm syndrome' mixed in with some vigilante-ism... I'm sure he felt responsible for Graham James, and what he does in his off time. I certainly DONT think Fleury allowed for ANYONE involved with that team to be left alone with Graham... I think he made it his mission to ensure that NEVER happened.

But for Pat Hickey... to have written something so poorly thought out is certainly NOT journalism. He's using his piece in this case as a political POV, to cut down a guy personally, without understanding the context behind the whole thing. If Fleury feels it's worth Hickey's job... Then I agree wholeheartedly, because what ultimately got me to write this post, was visiting on his Twitter page, and reading the comments back at him... calling him a bunch of names, and bringing it back to sexuality. I dont think people can understand what kind of nightmare that is. Especially to a victim of this kind of crime.
I shed a tear reading your post

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12-13-2011, 04:17 PM
  #175
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Everyone is different but sometimes you just have to accept what happened.

Fluery made his "comeback" a month before his book released which had all the details of his abuse as a child. He had the perfect chance to put James behind bars and waited until now to put out the details -- details that people read and put money in his pocket.

Like I said, everyone is unique but nothing Hickey said is a lie.

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