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The last of Pat Hickey?

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Old
12-13-2011, 04:21 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universe View Post
Everyone is different but sometimes you just have to accept what happened.

Fluery made his "comeback" a month before his book released which had all the details of his abuse as a child. He had the perfect chance to put James behind bars and waited until now to put out the details -- details that people read and put money in his pocket.

Like I said, everyone is unique but nothing Hickey said is a lie.
ding.

I'm surprised more people don't see how transparent this is.

Fleury wants the $potlight... but this does not mean he's immune from any judgement,.

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Old
12-13-2011, 04:22 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Canada's politicians don't have the psychological and emotional hurdles of being a victim, and speaking out and telling their story that Theo has. Those hurdles are very real, and if he wasn't ready to deal with them 14 years ago... we can't blame him for that.

On the other hand, the Canadian Politicians, Joe Paterno, the Penn State Administration. These are rational individuals coming from a rational state of mind, who are still letting a known (James) or accused (Sandusky) pedofile on the streets, in their facilities, etc...

These people should be capable of dealing with the situation... and have none of the fear, guilt, emotional shame, turmoil, and other emotions going on in their head. They have nothing to hide from in the same way a victim does.
OK. I gotcha now.

If a non-victim of molestation allows a child to be molested, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

and

If a victim of molestation allows a child to be molested, they should be excused because of all the pain that they have felt in their life as a victim.


Incredible.

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Old
12-13-2011, 04:22 PM
  #178
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I don't see why there's so much fuss regarding this, it is indeed messed up for Fleury to have partnered up with this guy after he himself was abused by him. Makes zero sense to me.

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Old
12-13-2011, 04:23 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Universe View Post
Everyone is different but sometimes you just have to accept what happened.

Fluery made his "comeback" a month before his book released which had all the details of his abuse as a child. He had the perfect chance to put James behind bars and waited until now to put out the details -- details that people read and put money in his pocket.

Like I said, everyone is unique but nothing Hickey said is a lie.
Fleury went to the police almost immediately upon releasing his book and filed a complaint.

Is it his fault that it can take 2 years for these things to go from "Victim Complaint" to "Guilty Verdict"?

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12-13-2011, 04:28 PM
  #180
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OK. I gotcha now.

If a non-victim of molestation allows a child to be molested, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

and

If a victim of molestation allows a child to be molested, they should be excused because of all the pain that they have felt in their life as a victim.


Incredible.
If a victim of molestation allows a child to be molested because they have not yet spoken out.... thats not a problem IMO.

Lets take your logic and apply it to Jerry Sandusky at Penn State.

He was a serial abuser and there are many, many people now coming forward. At last count there are what 10 victims in the Sandusky case? more?

For 9 of those 10 victims, if they would have spoke out sooner, then Sandusky wouldn't have had a job and he wouldn't have continued abusing the later kids.

By your logic, we should blame them too. Their silence about the abuse done to them enabled him to keep on abusing. Enabled him to keep his job.

Note that this is a common pattern in serial abusers. The dependency, shame, guilt, etc... of the victims prevents them from speaking out.

No one should be persecuted when they are quite frankly "psychologically unwell" and unable to control their actions. Fleury shouldnt be criticized for things he did, when he was obviously not mentally stable.

Heck, if Fleury had taken a gun and shot James, he'd probably plead temporary insanity and get off completely on the murder charge for being the victim of the abuse.

The legal system acknowledges that a victim of abuse is not in the right state of mind for many years during and post abuse. The medical profession confirms this. Pretty much everything we know tells us that for a victim, acting in a rational manner when it comes to their accuser is something that happens on the victim's own time, and when they are prepared to confront their own issues.

But we should blame Fleury for not acting like a rational human being should, while dealing with this psychological trauma?

Incredible :


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Old
12-13-2011, 04:45 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
If a victim of molestation allows a child to be molested because they have not yet spoken out.... thats not a problem IMO.


After this reply, I am done discussing this issue with you. No way can I agree (or even have respect for you.....sorry) with anything you have to say after posting the above.

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Old
12-13-2011, 05:23 PM
  #182
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I kinda agree with Hickey. Maybe he shouldn't have been that brutally honest about the idea, but he's right in the sense that Fleury did more harm than good. He knew that James continued to do that filth and he was his employee. Stockholm Syndrome or not, he should have been reported or at the very least removed from his position as coach if Fleury wasn't ready to come out with his past.

I also dislike the way Fleury is now saying Hickey supports that piece of **** James. That is SO not what he's saying, but ofcourse Fleury is pissed that he's labelled as someone who indirectly let it continue when he had an amazing chance to fire him and stop this much sooner. And his reputation or whatever wouldn't be on the line if he wasn't ready to publicize it.

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12-13-2011, 05:27 PM
  #183
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My main issues with the article is the climate it can help create.

A superstar sports figure had the guts to speak out publicly about the abuse he received. When a famous person does this, it helps remove the stigma of being a victim. It encourages more victims to speak up and leads to more predators being put in jail and prevented form committing more abuse. It creates dialogue and thrusts a very unpleasant, taboo subject into the spot light and forces society to deal with it.

However, when journalists write articles like Hickey did, it sends a very bad message to victims. His article makes it acceptable to blame the victim. It sends the message that even if you are brave enough to come forward, we can still question your integrity and motives and put you on trial.

Unless the public stands up and shouts that this is unacceptable journalism, there is a very real risk of more victims staying silent.

There are million reasons why victims are afraid to come forward. Is it responsible journalism to add to that list of reasons ? To contribute further to the reasons why victims are afraid to speak up?

If Hickey cares so much about preventing further crimes, he should take a long look in the mirror before criticizing others.

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Old
12-13-2011, 05:55 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
If a victim of molestation allows a child to be molested because they have not yet spoken out.... thats not a problem IMO.

Lets take your logic and apply it to Jerry Sandusky at Penn State.

He was a serial abuser and there are many, many people now coming forward. At last count there are what 10 victims in the Sandusky case? more?

For 9 of those 10 victims, if they would have spoke out sooner, then Sandusky wouldn't have had a job and he wouldn't have continued abusing the later kids.

By your logic, we should blame them too. Their silence about the abuse done to them enabled him to keep on abusing. Enabled him to keep his job.

Note that this is a common pattern in serial abusers. The dependency, shame, guilt, etc... of the victims prevents them from speaking out.

No one should be persecuted when they are quite frankly "psychologically unwell" and unable to control their actions. Fleury shouldnt be criticized for things he did, when he was obviously not mentally stable.

Heck, if Fleury had taken a gun and shot James, he'd probably plead temporary insanity and get off completely on the murder charge for being the victim of the abuse.

The legal system acknowledges that a victim of abuse is not in the right state of mind for many years during and post abuse. The medical profession confirms this. Pretty much everything we know tells us that for a victim, acting in a rational manner when it comes to their accuser is something that happens on the victim's own time, and when they are prepared to confront their own issues.

But we should blame Fleury for not acting like a rational human being should, while dealing with this psychological trauma?

Incredible :

What if Fleury himself molests a young boy during his dark days? People who have been abused sometimes become abusers. What then, does he get a pass?

Look, I understand that it is hard to say Fleury should have come forward sooner. Something that nobody except for Fleury could decide. But still he is criticizing the justice system for allowing James to be around children while he himself was allowing that. That is hypocritical and was the point Hickey was making. Can you justify the hypocrisy? Sure, but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical. This isn't blaming the victim. There isn't anyone saying Fleury deserved to get molested, and brought it upon himself.

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Old
12-13-2011, 06:02 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Leo Getz View Post
What if Fleury himself molests a young boy during his dark days? People who have been abused sometimes become abusers. What then, does he get a pass?

Look, I understand that it is hard to say Fleury should have come forward sooner. Something that nobody except for Fleury could decide. But still he is criticizing the justice system for allowing James to be around children while he himself was allowing that. That is hypocritical and was the point Hickey was making. Can you justify the hypocrisy? Sure, but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical. This isn't blaming the victim. There isn't anyone saying Fleury deserved to get molested, and brought it upon himself.
Not just allowing, but Fleury himself placed James in a position where he would have easier access to children.

Fleury saying what he did about Hickey is worse than Hickey saying what he did about Fleury. Pat may not have properly chosen his words, but his point is valid. Unfortunately, the real point of the article has been lost in the noise it created. A lot of people aren't bothering to read it, they're just accepting Fleury's word that Hickey is supporting a pedophile, and bashing the victim. which couldn't be further from the truth.

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Old
12-13-2011, 06:03 PM
  #186
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In the meantime, the kid that was abused at the same time as Fleury is testifying at a Senate Committee hearing.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/She...364/story.html

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Old
12-13-2011, 06:23 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
My main issues with the article is the climate it can help create.

A superstar sports figure had the guts to speak out publicly about the abuse he received. When a famous person does this, it helps remove the stigma of being a victim. It encourages more victims to speak up and leads to more predators being put in jail and prevented form committing more abuse. It creates dialogue and thrusts a very unpleasant, taboo subject into the spot light and forces society to deal with it.

However, when journalists write articles like Hickey did, it sends a very bad message to victims. His article makes it acceptable to blame the victim. It sends the message that even if you are brave enough to come forward, we can still question your integrity and motives and put you on trial.

Unless the public stands up and shouts that this is unacceptable journalism, there is a very real risk of more victims staying silent.

There are million reasons why victims are afraid to come forward. Is it responsible journalism to add to that list of reasons ? To contribute further to the reasons why victims are afraid to speak up?

If Hickey cares so much about preventing further crimes, he should take a long look in the mirror before criticizing others.
I'm on the fence regarding this article. I am never one to question those that suffer at the hands of others who have more power BUT in this instance, the article is NOT inferring that Fleury is to blame for anything...other than being hypocritical. At no point in the article is it even remotely close to being acceptable to blame the victim for the crime committed upon them. This is not a true statement on your part.

As the article reads, it can't possibly be construed as alleging that Fleury did anything to warrant the sexual aggression he was a victim of. Furthermore, Fleury is no longer a victim but a survivor of his ordeal. Stop playing the victim card and the blame game since he has apparently moved on. We need to define that Fleury is now a survivor and stop calling him a victim...a term he no longer uses.

To imply that there may be a chance that victims of this heinous crime may not come forward based on this article is completely stupid. When Fleury was ready to speak he did regardless of what the climate was regarding sexual predators. Anybody now contemplating speaking out will not be deterred by some overblown article in the Gazette.

I heard Hickey on TSN990 and he was being bombarded by those who disagree with him. he was polite and expressed that it was his opinion and they were entitled to their own. If he regards what Fleury said as hypocritical then as a journalist he is entitled to write an article about it just as Fleury is entitled to blast the judicial system for allowing that dirt bag out for 2 months.

Lost in all this is the fact that sexual predators are allowed to roam free and unidentified in our communities while our kids are going through their regular days at school. In my community everybody knew (or i should say found out) that a sexual predator was in our midst and nothing was going to be done about it. Thankfully the dirtbag moved out after everybody treated him like the filth he was. I know it is a disease and they can't help it but I can't forgive that...it's bigger than I am.

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Old
12-13-2011, 06:25 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Leo Getz View Post
What if Fleury himself molests a young boy during his dark days? People who have been abused sometimes become abusers. What then, does he get a pass?
Of course not... what a ridiculous question.

Temporary Insanity in this case would pretty much only apply to any actions the person is taking when it involves their abuser.

The mental difficulty they have is in dealing with anything to do with that person. The extreme control the abuser has over the victime, the dependency relationship.

Thats what is proven... not just because I'm saying it, but by thousands of medical professionals who deal with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Getz View Post
Look, I understand that it is hard to say Fleury should have come forward sooner. Something that nobody except for Fleury could decide. But still he is criticizing the justice system for allowing James to be around children while he himself was allowing that. That is hypocritical and was the point Hickey was making. Can you justify the hypocrisy? Sure, but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical. This isn't blaming the victim. There isn't anyone saying Fleury deserved to get molested, and brought it upon himself.
It has a discouraging effect on all future victims coming forward and thats the ABSOLUTE LAST thing we need.

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12-13-2011, 06:27 PM
  #189
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Hidden amongst some of the crap posted in this thread are some very good, thoughtful, emotional posts from Ghost #1, I just want to take a second and thank him for sharing.

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12-13-2011, 06:27 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
After this reply, I am done discussing this issue with you. No way can I agree (or even have respect for you.....sorry) with anything you have to say after posting the above.
And after this reply, I can confirm you have absolutely no possible clue of what it is like to be in this situation.

Hey though, feel blessed, you've both never been abused, and never had to deal with trying to help those who have.

Its living in a bubble mentality that doesn't allow someone to acknowledge the PROVEN MEDICAL FACT, that an abue victim often loses the ability to make rational decisions when dealing with the person who is abusing them.

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12-13-2011, 06:31 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Hidden amongst some of the crap posted in this thread are some very good, thoughtful, emotional posts from Ghost #1, I just want to take a second and thank him for sharing.
Agreed Ghost's post are excellent and insightful into the mindset of someone like Fleury.

The type of victims I have to deal with on a near daily basis, in hearing their stories and listening to their most private thoughts... Ghost's story is unfortunately not an uncommon one.

Everyone here criticizing Fleury or supporting Hickey should take two seconds and read those posts again, because thats the reality.

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12-13-2011, 07:13 PM
  #192
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I'm on the fence regarding this article. I am never one to question those that suffer at the hands of others who have more power BUT in this instance, the article is NOT inferring that Fleury is to blame for anything...other than being hypocritical. At no point in the article is it even remotely close to being acceptable to blame the victim for the crime committed upon them. This is not a true statement on your part.

To imply that there may be a chance that victims of this heinous crime may not come forward based on this article is completely stupid. When Fleury was ready to speak he did regardless of what the climate was regarding sexual predators. Anybody now contemplating speaking out will not be deterred by some overblown article in the Gazette.
Wow you completely missed my point and managed to call me stupid.
Congrats !

I think Hickey's article reinforces the negative stigma and will discourage others from coming forward. By others I mean other victims of abuse : not victims of this specific predator Graham James.

There are so many reasons why victims are scared to come forward :
stigma, name calling, homophobia, being seen as a victim or a damaged person psychologically, people not believing them, being blamed etc....

Hickey claims to be concerned about this.
But his article clearly contributes negatively to the climate that influences victims to stay silent.

IMO a silent victim of abuse will look at this article and be even more scared to come forward. Seeing how quick people are to jump on Fleury and judge his actions / inactions.

Basically the message sent is if you come forward after being abused, not only to you have to deal with surviving it, you are now fair game for people to judge how "heroic" or "ethical" you were during your struggle.

This is what I mean by blaming the victim. To place judgement and make quality comparisons between how different survivors dealt with their ordeal is offensive to me. If we accept this from the media, the message we send to silent victims is that we will ALWAYS find a way to judge you because of the abuse you suffered.

To make an analogy :

Would it be acceptable to write an article about how Anne Frank's family were total cowards and hypocrites during the Holocaust since they stayed in hiding while other Jewish families helped people escape or joined the resistance ?

Or is it completely inappropriate to qualitatively judge different people's reactions to horrifying circumstances and psychological trauma? Especially if you have not lived under the same circumstances.

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12-13-2011, 07:25 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Fleury went to the police almost immediately upon releasing his book and filed a complaint.

Is it his fault that it can take 2 years for these things to go from "Victim Complaint" to "Guilty Verdict"?
That went right over your head.

80,000 books sold in six weeks. $2,639,200 earned in that short amount of time about a story in your life that you hid from while others suffered and earned nothing.

Yes, it's great that he's promoting speaking up which will lead to more people standing up against abuse but the fact is he's gained more than anyone in these recent events of child abuse.

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12-13-2011, 08:11 PM
  #194
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That went right over your head.

80,000 books sold in six weeks. $2,639,200 earned in that short amount of time about a story in your life that you hid from while others suffered and earned nothing.

Yes, it's great that he's promoting speaking up which will lead to more people standing up against abuse but the fact is he's gained more than anyone in these recent events of child abuse.
Woooooooah hold on their a second.

Fleury doesn't get 32.99 everytime the book is sold.

There are a whole lot of people to pay on this thing, in fact his percentage is probably 10-15% of that number, actually that would be his percentage if he was the sole author. Since he has a co-writer, its probably half of that.

Secondly..... he's given a ton of time, and money to numerous charitable causes.

Lastly and most importantly. I think its deplorable to question the timing of anyone finally being ready to come forward with their story of abuse. DEPLORABLE.

Fleury would have made a heck of a lot more money, and been able to keep it, if he came forward during his hockey career... he would have got treatment, wouldn't have been thrown to the curb in the Northern Irish league, and wouldn't have spent all the money he did earn on drugs and prostitutes. Come on now.

Saying he's only doing this for the money is a joke.

The more we question the motives of the victims, the more we put them on trial and criticize their actions, the more we disparage them. The harder we make it for every other potential victim to come forward.

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12-13-2011, 08:29 PM
  #195
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Being abused tends to **** up a lot of things for a person mentally. They can suffer from forms of dissociation and post-traumatic stress disorder.

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12-13-2011, 08:38 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
My main issues with the article is the climate it can help create.

A superstar sports figure had the guts to speak out publicly about the abuse he received. When a famous person does this, it helps remove the stigma of being a victim. It encourages more victims to speak up and leads to more predators being put in jail and prevented form committing more abuse. It creates dialogue and thrusts a very unpleasant, taboo subject into the spot light and forces society to deal with it.

However, when journalists write articles like Hickey did, it sends a very bad message to victims. His article makes it acceptable to blame the victim. It sends the message that even if you are brave enough to come forward, we can still question your integrity and motives and put you on trial.

Unless the public stands up and shouts that this is unacceptable journalism, there is a very real risk of more victims staying silent.

There are million reasons why victims are afraid to come forward. Is it responsible journalism to add to that list of reasons ? To contribute further to the reasons why victims are afraid to speak up?

If Hickey cares so much about preventing further crimes, he should take a long look in the mirror before criticizing others.
Finally some decency in this thread.

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12-13-2011, 09:29 PM
  #197
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Wow, i read all responses. A lot of people missed the entire point of the article.

I had to read the article again to make sure I there wasn't another page I failed to read.

Hickey is 100 percent correct.

My words (not Hickey's ) after reading:

- Kennedy exposed a predator
- Fleury stayed quiet and maintained a relationship with the predator
- when it was convenient for Fleury he came forward, only after years of delay and after a lucrative book was ready for publishing,
- while Kennedy works for change, Fleury sells books and criticizes OTHERS for keeping James on the street.

Fleury is a hypocrit and an opportunist.
Kennedy is courageous and working to effect change.

Hickey knows the difference and is writing about it.

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12-13-2011, 09:31 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Wow, i read all responses. A lot of people missed the entire point of the article.

I had to read the article again to make sure I there wasn't another page I failed to read.

Hickey is 100 percent correct.

My words (not Hickey's ) after reading:

- Kennedy exposed a predator
- Fleury stayed quiet and maintained a relationship with the predator
- when it was convenient for Fleury he came forward, only after years of delay and after a lucrative book was ready for publishing,
- while Kennedy works for change, Fleury sells books and criticizes OTHERS for keeping James on the street.

Fleury is a hypocrit and an opportunist.
Kennedy is courageous and working to effect change.

Hickey knows the difference and is writing about it.
Exactly. I did the same thing regarding reading it again because I thought I missed something.

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12-13-2011, 10:06 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Wow, i read all responses. A lot of people missed the entire point of the article.

I had to read the article again to make sure I there wasn't another page I failed to read.

Hickey is 100 percent correct.

My words (not Hickey's ) after reading:

- Kennedy exposed a predator
- Fleury stayed quiet and maintained a relationship with the predator
- when it was convenient for Fleury he came forward, only after years of delay and after a lucrative book was ready for publishing,
- while Kennedy works for change, Fleury sells books and criticizes OTHERS for keeping James on the street.

Fleury is a hypocrit and an opportunist.
Kennedy is courageous and working to effect change.

Hickey knows the difference and is writing about it.
I strongly disagree.
I do not believe we can judge victims of sexual abuse's timing and methods of coming forward under such a black & white microscope.

It is very easy to sit at a safe distance and judge.
But there is well documented proof that victims will sometimes act to protect their aggressor. It is not abnormal behaviour.

Likewise, to say it was "convenient" for Fleury to come forward when he did is snide and insulting. You act as if he has done nothing to help victims of abuse.

We know very little about Fleury's personal life and all the reasons he might have had to only come forward after retiring from hockey. Think of the effects coming forward earlier could have had on :

- family life
- his wife
- his treatment by teamates and coaches
- his sponsorship deals
- his future contract negotiations with NHL teams
- his own mental health
- his ability to perform as a star athlete
- the increased media attention
- trash talking from other teams players
etc...

Professional atheletes deal with an insane amount of pressure to perform. Is it fair to judge Theo for waiting till he was retired to deal with his issues ? Who has the right to judge him for this ?

Dealing with emotional traumas is an intensely personal and private process.
His way of getting closure was to come forward and write a book and shine a spotlight on the issue. What's wrong with that?

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12-13-2011, 10:13 PM
  #200
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
There are a lot of horrible things that happen to people. Abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture etc.

As a victim of abuse, beatings, ****, mental torture, does that moniker of "victim" give a person the carte blanche authority to enable other people to BECOME victims.

That is the issue here.

Fleury did not have to come out publicly against James. Nor did he have to co-own a team with the predator as coach continuing his abuse and creating MORE VICTIMS.
You're still missing the point here though... We don't know the circumstances behind this. Do you think that Fleury wanted to have anything to do with his abuser? Of course not.

But he was a VICTIM. His behaviour was affected by his abuse and his abuser obviously held power over him. It's easy enough for us to sit back in our comfy chairs and judge Fleury but we haven't walked in his shoes. It's not right to hammer on a victim of these kinds of crimes and label them as hypocrites when they argue that the government should've done more.

Was Hickey right about James being able to stay free longer because of his victims' silence? Sure he is. That's the way it always works with these guys. They pray on the vulnerable. That's what makes them so dispicible. They pray on the young who they feel will be scared enough to stay silent. This often goes on for years...

Fleury was victimized enough by James. Hickey didn't need to victimize him again with an article like this. It was over the line and I think he owes Fleury a sincer apology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
OK. I gotcha now.

If a non-victim of molestation allows a child to be molested, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

and

If a victim of molestation allows a child to be molested, they should be excused because of all the pain that they have felt in their life as a victim.


Incredible.
You are making all kinds of assumptions here...

Fleury hasn't been accused by anyone of allowing anybody to be abused. If he did this he WOULD be facing the law. That hasn't happened here.

And that's a big reason why Hickey is out of line. I haven't seen any evidence of criminal misconduct by Fleury here at all. And I gotta tell you, with the article having been written and the reactions of some of the posters in this thread it's no wonder Fleury chose to remain silent for as long as he did.

Normally, I would just walk away from this thread at this point but this is actually something worth staying here for. You really do need to understand this. I hope you can keep an open mind here and listen to what some of the others are telling you in this thread.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 12-13-2011 at 10:23 PM.
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