HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

AJC: Thrashers fans coping with relocation six months later

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-15-2011, 10:53 AM
  #76
Hank Chinaski
Moderator
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Granola Belt
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,219
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Ten Bears View Post
Surely you aren't comparing a situation involving a storied, original six franchise, the Chicago Black Hawks, to that of the Atlanta Thrashers...
That probably strengthens his point more than anything. If a team with as much past success and deep roots as Chicago was struggling to draw fans when Bill Wirtz was running the team into the ground, what does that say about the chances of fans showing up in a non-traditional market like Atlanta?

There's the theory that rabid hockey fans should show up no matter how toxic the ownership is, and no matter how crappy the product is. It's a romantic theory, and most Winnipeg fans (including myself) would like to believe that if the Jets ownership ever went down the toilet. I have this apocalyptic vision of the year 2096, where Chipman and Thomson have seceded control, and where the Jets new arena is owned by the second coming of Winnipeg Enterprises. I hope my grandkids are still going to those games.

Fact is, terrible ownership and poor on-ice product is going to be a death sentence for any non-traditional market, especially one where there are lots of other options competing for your entertainment dollar.

Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 10:53 AM
  #77
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 8,411
vCash: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
Meanwhile, a new complaint is that the franchise failed because it wasn't selling tickets. The Thrashers averaged somwhere just north of 13K attendance the past two seasons.
The posting of random attendance numbers sans context means little. The numbers in the stands are meaningless unless the tickets are sold at a price that allows the business to finance itself.

Gump Hasek is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 10:58 AM
  #78
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The posting of random attendance numbers sans context means little. The numbers in the stands are meaningless unless the tickets are sold at a price that allows the business to finance itself.
You're right. The fact that they could get 13K in that building every night despite having a failure of a product is impressive.

BigTuna49 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:01 AM
  #79
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 37,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
Carolina is a foreign market?
Might as well be. Winnipeg is literally a foreign market, and arguably the most obscure pro sports market other than Green Bay.

8 months ago, Carolina was a division rival. Right now they're 29th in the league.

The broadcast was on the local Fox Sports Network affiliate, not one of the big national carriers.

I can't imagine anyone other than a die-hard Thrashers fan having any interest in watching that game. I didn't really want to watch it and I was in the arena.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:05 AM
  #80
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 8,411
vCash: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
You're right. The fact that they could get 13K in that building every night despite having a failure of a product is impressive.
That is not at all what I said but carry on with misconstruing my words if you wish.


Gump Hasek is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:15 AM
  #81
Grudy0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 1,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The posting of random attendance numbers sans context means little. The numbers in the stands are meaningless unless the tickets are sold at a price that allows the business to finance itself.
Meaningless? Context states that the two seasons after the lockout that the Thrashers drew more people than the Blackhawks. By said reasoning, that means the Blackhawks were worse off than the Thrashers.

One difference is that the Bulls and Blackhawks own United Center in partnership. ASG appears to have wanted no part relinquishing control of any part of the operations of Philips Arena.

I realize it's a difficult point to grasp, but being a hockey market for almost 80 years didn't put butts in the seats in Chicago. Bill Wirtz died in September, 2007, and attendance picked up by over 4000 fans per game in 2007-8.

Grudy0 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:16 AM
  #82
Butch 19
King me
 
Butch 19's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Geographical Oddity
Country: United States
Posts: 10,003
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroFist View Post
this could not be a more ignorant or uninformed statement.

Have you not paid ANY attention to what Thrashers fans have told about the treatment given to the fans by ASG? When fans are pretty much told to piss off by the ownership, what are they to do? When they complain about broken toilets in the bathrooms at the arena, and ownership tells them to "Deal with it," why would anyone want to go?

Atlanta's attendance was fine until ASG bought the team. Go back and look at the numbers. Also go look at youth hockey growth in the metro Atlanta area.

I seem to recall another city that recently got an NHL team that was told it had little to no chance of getting a team back.
Occupy ASG?


I do not know all the detials about ASG, but has there ever been a worse owner of a professional sports team? After Georgia Fronteriere of course.

Butch 19 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:22 AM
  #83
Chief Ten Bears*
Unregistered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 250
vCash: 500
The difference is, an organization like the Black Hawks can weather the storms... So called bad ownership, bad seasons, bad hot dogs, bad parking, busy streets, long drives, bad weather, Halloween, whatever the excuse may be.

An organization like Atlanta, simply could not, and thus the business fails.

Chief Ten Bears* is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:22 AM
  #84
Hank Chinaski
Moderator
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Granola Belt
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,219
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
Meaningless? Context states that the two seasons after the lockout that the Thrashers drew more people than the Blackhawks. By said reasoning, that means the Blackhawks were worse off than the Thrashers.
I agree with Gump, attendance numbers are for the most part meaningless. Actual ticket and suite revenue is what counts.

Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:23 AM
  #85
edog37
Registered User
 
edog37's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: A Midwestern Town
Country: United States
Posts: 2,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
If the league is powerless to do anything about a renegade ownership group that sets out to ruin it's product in a market the size of Atlanta, what good is it to have a Comish, BOG, and all the rest of the BS?
because franchises are privately owned. Teams are constantly being run into the ground. Look at the Cincy Bengals under Paul Brown. What leverage does the NFL have there? None.

edog37 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:23 AM
  #86
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 8,411
vCash: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
I realize it's a difficult point to grasp, but being a hockey market for almost 80 years didn't put butts in the seats in Chicago. Bill Wirtz died in September, 2007, and attendance picked up by over 4000 fans per game in 2007-8.
It is not at all difficult to grasp. We aren't discussing the Hawks, we are discussing the Thrashers. The Thrashers may indeed have sold 13k in tickets on average, but they didn't sell them at prices that allowed the business to finance itself. That is why the posting of attendance numbers means little. What counts is the price paid per each butt in each seat, and whether or not that covers cost in conjunction with any other team revenue earned. Given that the NHL is by and large a gate driven league, the ticket revenue garnered per each seat sold is crucial.

Gump Hasek is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:33 AM
  #87
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 37,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I agree with Gump, attendance numbers are for the most part meaningless. Actual ticket and suite revenue is what counts.
Depends on what point you're trying to make.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:44 AM
  #88
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Ten Bears View Post
The difference is, an organization like the Black Hawks can weather the storms... So called bad ownership, bad seasons, bad hot dogs, bad parking, busy streets, long drives, bad weather, Halloween, whatever the excuse may be.

An organization like Atlanta, simply could not, and thus the business fails.
@ this statement. You say this as if Atlanta itself is an organization.

BigTuna49 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:52 AM
  #89
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I agree with Gump, attendance numbers are for the most part meaningless. Actual ticket and suite revenue is what counts.
While this is true, people have to realize that ticket prices aren't going to be the same everywhere, and some people seem to have a false sense on reality and think that ticket prices should be similar when this is simply not true. Obviously a place like Winnipeg that hasn't seen NHL hockey in 15 years is going to have expensive tickets and at a much higher rate then a place that has had nothing but a failed product for years. I just wish people weren't so ignorant to this in thinking everywhere is the same. Not saying you are Hank at all. I'm sure you understand what I mean here.

BigTuna49 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:53 AM
  #90
NorthernILHawksFan
Registered User
 
NorthernILHawksFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: IL
Country: United States
Posts: 273
vCash: 500
I hate to come in here and end the Atlanta Thrashers sob story, but there is virtually no chance that city gets another team.

Tell me, why the hell would an owner, or the NHL, want to put a team there? Atlanta has had its chance. Twice. They failed both times.

Blame the ownership all you want. Atlanta is an awful sports town. The Braves couldn't even sell out PLAYOFF games in the 90s-early 2000s.

Talk all you want about the big TV market blah blah blah. As someone mentioned, that TV market drew 7,500 viewers.

I feel bad for the true die-hard Thrashers fans who lost their team. But sorry, the NHL isn't coming back.

NorthernILHawksFan is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:57 AM
  #91
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 8,411
vCash: 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
While this is true, people have to realize that ticket prices aren't going to be the same everywhere, and some people seem to have a false sense on reality and think that ticket prices should be similar when this is simply not true. Obviously a place like Winnipeg that hasn't seen NHL hockey in 15 years is going to have expensive tickets and at a much higher rate then a place that has had nothing but a failed product for years. I just wish people weren't so ignorant to this in thinking everywhere is the same. Not saying you are Hank at all. I'm sure you understand what I mean here.
It isn't "ignorant" to attempt to hold a business to a standard that its sales at least cover costs, especially on a business forum. It can however be argued that it is ignorant though to allow sentimentality to cloud business discussion.

Gump Hasek is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:57 AM
  #92
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernILHawksFan View Post
I hate to come in here and end the Atlanta Thrashers sob story, but there is virtually no chance that city gets another team.

Tell me, why the hell would an owner, or the NHL, want to put a team there? Atlanta has had its chance. Twice. They failed both times.

Blame the ownership all you want. Atlanta is an awful sports town. The Braves couldn't even sell out PLAYOFF games in the 90s-early 2000s.

Talk all you want about the big TV market blah blah blah. As someone mentioned, that TV market drew 7,500 viewers.

I feel bad for the true die-hard Thrashers fans who lost their team. But sorry, the NHL isn't coming back.
I would actually like to see some numbers on this FOR ONCE. Because I have never seen anyone post any kind of numbers around here.

And you talk as if someone that is clueless on what actually happened. I would think a 'Hawks fan would understand what awful ownership can do to a team. That's of course assuming you were a 'Hawks fan in the bad years.

BigTuna49 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 11:59 AM
  #93
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,057
vCash: 500
Guys don't get this thread locked.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:02 PM
  #94
NorthernILHawksFan
Registered User
 
NorthernILHawksFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: IL
Country: United States
Posts: 273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
I would actually like to see some numbers on this FOR ONCE. Because I have never seen anyone post any kind of numbers around here.

And you talk as if someone that is clueless on what actually happened. I would think a 'Hawks fan would understand what awful ownership can do to a team. That's of course assuming you were a 'Hawks fan in the bad years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bo...99910050.shtml

Game 1 of the 1999 NLDS. Turner Field sits 54,000 according to this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Field

Look at that attendance. Just one example, of the very, very loyal Atlanta sports fans.

And yes, obviously I'm familiar with terrible ownership situations being a Hawks fan. Not saying ownership wasn't to blame for Atlanta's lack of success. Far from the only thing.

NorthernILHawksFan is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:06 PM
  #95
King Woodballs
**** HFJets
 
King Woodballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Your Mind
Posts: 34,160
vCash: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
You're right. The fact that they could get 13K in that building every night despite having a failure of a product is impressive.
10000 x $75 > 13000 X $15

King Woodballs is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:07 PM
  #96
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernILHawksFan View Post
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bo...99910050.shtml

Game 1 of the 1999 NLDS. Turner Field sits 54,000 according to this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Field

Look at that attendance. Just one example, of the very, very loyal Atlanta sports fans.

And yes, obviously I'm familiar with terrible ownership situations being a Hawks fan. Not saying ownership wasn't to blame for Atlanta's lack of success. Far from the only thing.
Thank you for actually finding a number for me. No one has actually done that before. A mid afternoon Tuesday game in the first round of the playoffs was just short of 40K.

Ownership has been Atlanta's biggest problem both times and is the main reason the teams moved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
10000 x $75 > 13000 X $15
So you're pulling some random numbers?

BigTuna49 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:09 PM
  #97
King Woodballs
**** HFJets
 
King Woodballs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Your Mind
Posts: 34,160
vCash: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Thank you for actually finding a number for me. No one has actually done that before. A mid afternoon Tuesday game in the first round of the playoffs was just short of 40K.

Ownership has been Atlanta's biggest problem both times and is the main reason the teams moved.



So you're pulling some random numbers?
examples
attendance number dont mean a thing if the tickets go for peanuts
Not Atlanta but as a general statement to any team in any league

King Woodballs is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:13 PM
  #98
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
examples
attendance number dont mean a thing if the tickets go for peanuts
Not Atlanta but as a general statement to any team in any league
Regardless, I understand what you're saying, but why are we comparing Atlanta to Winnipeg? They aren't comparable in anyway. Can we stop thinking that just because Winnipeg does well that Atlanta should too without considering all of the circumstances?

BigTuna49 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:27 PM
  #99
Grudy0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 1,297
vCash: 500
I realize some of the team marketing report is considered "unreliable", but it mentions that in 05-06 and 06-07 that the Thrashers had a higher average ticket price than the Blackhawks. So all things being equal, one would have to assume that even if the prices were even slightly in favor of the Blackhawks that at that time the Thrashers and Blackhawks were generating similar revenues.

That changed when ASG put a boot to the neck of their season ticket base.

Grudy0 is offline  
Old
12-15-2011, 12:36 PM
  #100
BigTuna49
#WPGWHITEOUT
 
BigTuna49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ATL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 24,512
vCash: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
I realize some of the team marketing report is considered "unreliable", but it mentions that in 05-06 and 06-07 that the Thrashers had a higher average ticket price than the Blackhawks. So all things being equal, one would have to assume that even if the prices were even slightly in favor of the Blackhawks that at that time the Thrashers and Blackhawks were generating similar revenues.

That changed when ASG put a boot to the neck of their season ticket base.
You know what I find interesting? Atlanta actually averaged higher ticket prices in their inaugural season then all but 2 teams in the league. Obviously though, an inaugural season isn't going to be telling for any market.

BigTuna49 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:01 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.