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Pelle Lindbergh and Bob Froese?

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12-14-2011, 05:03 PM
  #1
plusandminus
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Pelle Lindbergh and Bob Froese?

Pelle Lindbergh won a Vezina in 1984-85, and then unfortunately passed away early in the 1985-86 season. I just looked at his stats, I noticed that his teammate Bob Froese actually had better stats than him season after season, both regarding GA per game and save percentage.

What can be said regarding that? Did Philadelphia have two great goaltenders in Froese and Lindbergh? Do you think their goalies affected their GA (compared to other teams' goalies) more than their skaters affected their GA (compared to other teams' skaters)?

(In case it is interesting, I was looking at Mark Howe's seasons of great +/-. It surely would help having a Vezina caliber goalie behind him. Or was the goalies perhaps even more helped by having guys like Howe and McCrimmon on the team?)

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12-14-2011, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Pelle Lindbergh won a Vezina in 1984-85, and then unfortunately passed away early in the 1985-86 season. I just looked at his stats, I noticed that his teammate Bob Froese actually had better stats than him season after season, both regarding GA per game and save percentage.

What can be said regarding that? Did Philadelphia have two great goaltenders in Froese and Lindbergh? Do you think their goalies affected their GA (compared to other teams' goalies) more than their skaters affected their GA (compared to other teams' skaters)?

(In case it is interesting, I was looking at Mark Howe's seasons of great +/-. It surely would help having a Vezina caliber goalie behind him. Or was the goalies perhaps even more helped by having guys like Howe and McCrimmon on the team?)
Lindberg didn't signficantly outplay his former teammate Pete Peeters either.

This points out to the following : The Flyers had an absolutely terrific defense, but somewhat average goaltending, and that includes Lindbergh as well.

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12-14-2011, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Lindberg didn't signficantly outplay his former teammate Pete Peeters either.

This points out to the following : The Flyers had an absolutely terrific defense, but somewhat average goaltending, and that includes Lindbergh as well.
Interesting.
I just noticed that Philadelphia's GA went down after they acquired a certain Brad McCrimmon, and went up when he left. That guy seem to pop up every now and then in the project, as a partner/teammate to some of the alltime great defencemen.

I started a thread recently about a wish for newspapers/media/NHL to for example choose the best goalie of each game. That is because it would - if done properly - add interesting information about how good different goalies really are. Goalie stats are interesting, but sometimes don't reveal the whole picture.

We look at players and their offensive stats and their +/-, and even compare their +/- to their teammates. But perhaps even more of a factor might be their goaltenders. I don't know, but a great goalie might perhaps mean 40(???) less GA per season, compared to an average or below average goalie. If 30 of those GA are when playing ES or PP, it will affect +/- with 30.
(I know about the others flaws/limitations of +/-.)
Players playing in front of a Hasek or Roy or Brodeur (if one believe those three are great goalies) will certainly see their stats being helped.
(That might be yet another thing to consider during the alltime best defenceman discussions.)

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12-14-2011, 05:28 PM
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(My reply does not seem to show up. I've waited three minutes. Testing.)

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12-14-2011, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Interesting.
I just noticed that Philadelphia's GA went down after they acquired a certain Brad McCrimmon, and went up when he left. That guy seem to pop up every now and then in the project, as a partner/teammate to some of the alltime great defencemen.

I started a thread recently about a wish for newspapers/media/NHL to for example choose the best goalie of each game. That is because it would - if done properly - add interesting information about how good different goalies really are. Goalie stats are interesting, but sometimes don't reveal the whole picture.

We look at players and their offensive stats and their +/-, and even compare their +/- to their teammates. But perhaps even more of a factor might be their goaltenders. I don't know, but a great goalie might perhaps mean 40(???) less GA per season, compared to an average or below average goalie. If 30 of those GA are when playing ES or PP, it will affect +/- with 30.
(I know about the others flaws/limitations of +/-.)
Players playing in front of a Hasek or Roy or Brodeur (if one believe those three are great goalies) will certainly see their stats being helped.
(That might be yet another thing to consider during the alltime best defenceman discussions.)
Well, McCrimmon's came when Peeters left (and Peeters was still pretty good with the Flyers). But seriously, if McCrimmon was that good, why was he traded for a 3rd rounder?

(somebody can explain this?)

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12-14-2011, 05:40 PM
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love your research, plusminus. for the record, i think there is a really good chance that McCrimmon is undervalued. I love Pelle like crazy, but i think he might get given a bit too much credit, for your very reasons. However, he was young, and had time to improve... I would like to think of him as becoming something really special, but i am pretty sentimental.

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12-14-2011, 09:11 PM
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I think Philly had a string of very good, but not great, goalies in Peeters, Lindbergh, Froese and Hextall during the 80s, and they made their goalies look better than they were, consistently.

Froese may have had the least impressive career out of the four, mainly due to a low career GP total. But, amazingly, Froese posted the best single season sv% of the 1980s:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=212

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12-14-2011, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think Philly had a string of very good, but not great, goalies in Peeters, Lindbergh, Froese and Hextall during the 80s, and they made their goalies look better than they were, consistently.

Froese may have had the least impressive career out of the four, mainly due to a low career GP total. But, amazingly, Froese posted the best single season sv% of the 1980s:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=212
funny. how the hell did he have such an 'unwanted' career? I always thought Roy had the best save % in the 80's... i just checked, i guess it was 89-90 where he was .912%

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12-14-2011, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Lindberg didn't signficantly outplay his former teammate Pete Peeters either.

This points out to the following : The Flyers had an absolutely terrific defense, but somewhat average goaltending, and that includes Lindbergh as well.
This is pretty much the case, although it probably isn’t politically correct to say it because of Lindbergh’s untimely death.

Basically through the mid-1980s that defense made a string of average goalies (Froese, Lindbergh, Hextall) all look like Vezina contenders.

Froese blew away Lindbergh statistically in 1983-84, and actually had substantially better numbers in Lindbergh’s Vezina season as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, McCrimmon's came when Peeters left (and Peeters was still pretty good with the Flyers). But seriously, if McCrimmon was that good, why was he traded for a 3rd rounder?

(somebody can explain this?)
McCrimmon was traded for a #1 pick and a #3 pick, so it was a lot more than just a 3rd-rounder.

He was in a contract dispute with Bobby Clarke that Clarke took personally, and he moved him out of spite – later called it one of the biggest mistakes of his GM career. That trade combined with Howe’s mounting injury issues signaled the end of Philadelphia as a legitimate contender.

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12-15-2011, 06:05 PM
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Thanks for the good responses, including the link to more info on Froese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think Philly had a string of very good, but not great, goalies in Peeters, Lindbergh, Froese and Hextall during the 80s, and they made their goalies look better than they were, consistently.
Several posters seem to think the same way regarding this.

How similar is the situation with New Jersey, and Martin Brodeur?
I just looked at his stats, and apart from the late 1990s, it seems as if his goalie teammates have as good as, or even better, stats than him. ?
(I have not spent time digging into Brodeur. I do know, however, that there seem to be mixed views about how great he really was/is. ?)

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12-15-2011, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Froese blew away Lindbergh statistically in 1983-84,
If I remember correctly, most blame Lindbergh's poor 1983-84 campaign on a hazing incident that went a bit too far.

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12-15-2011, 06:15 PM
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Considering brodeur won more than a few vezinas with an average to horrible defense it's not a very good comparison at all.

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12-15-2011, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Thanks for the good responses, including the link to more info on Froese.



Several posters seem to think the same way regarding this.

How similar is the situation with New Jersey, and Martin Brodeur?
I just looked at his stats, and apart from the late 1990s, it seems as if his goalie teammates have as good as, or even better, stats than him. ?
(I have not spent time digging into Brodeur. I do know, however, that there seem to be mixed views about how great he really was/is. ?)
Yeah, Brodeur's backups had great stats in the 5 games per season they played against the absolute worst teams in the league

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12-15-2011, 06:19 PM
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Considering brodeur won more than a few vezinas with an average to horrible defense it's not a very good comparison at all.
Brodeur has won four Vezinas total - therefore, for him to have won "more than a few" of them with an average to horrible defense, you must be saying that during the 2002-03 and 2003-04 seasons, his defense was average to horrible.

Those defenses had Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, John Madden, Patrik Elias, and Jay Pandolfo, among others.

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12-15-2011, 06:22 PM
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Sorry "a few" or "two" I thought he had 3 since the lockout for some reason

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12-15-2011, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, Brodeur's backups had great stats in the 5 games per season they played against the absolute worst teams in the league
But according to what I saw, some seasons other goalies did play more games than that. For example, how do you compare VanBriesbrook to Brodeur?

But you mean that they played to few games in order to get any impression?

And Brodeur's stats wasn't helped by New Jersey's style of play, and the defensive skill of some other players (including Scott Stevens, who you seem to rate high alltime), in any way similar to Lindbergh/Philadelphia?


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12-15-2011, 08:54 PM
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I think comparing starters to backups can be really overrated. There's so much that goes into them. Some goalies can play well as a backup against the worst teams, but struggle when put in net for an extended period. Conversely, some great starters play better with a heavy workload and their stats will suffer over smaller sample sizes coming off the bench. Sometimes, the team defense will be vastly different from one period in the season compared to another based on trades/injuries/coaching/etc. and one goalie might be more affected from that.

Comparing the goalie on a team one season to a new goalie on the same team the next also has problems because even if the roster is somewhat similar, the team play may have significantly changed. As well, there was much less parity in the league from expansion to the mid 90s and with backups generally playing the worst teams, the quality of competition difference is sometimes quite large.

I didn't see Lindbergh play, but everything I've seen says that he was absolutely fantastic that year. Now, with his death there might actually be a bit of nostalgic factor, and the fact that Froese and Hextall also had very good years with a similar team suggests the team was a bit of a factor in making him look good. However, I think I'd need more than backup/starter and seasons to season comparisons to convince me he was only an average starter

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12-15-2011, 08:57 PM
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But according to what I saw, some seasons other goalies did play more games than that. For example, how do you compare VanBriesbrook to Brodeur?
In two seasons in NJ, Vanbiesbrouck played a total of 9 games, all of them against the very easiest opponents. How do you think he compared to Brodeur?

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12-15-2011, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post

How similar is the situation with New Jersey, and Martin Brodeur?
I just looked at his stats, and apart from the late 1990s, it seems as if his goalie teammates have as good as, or even better, stats than him. ?
(I have not spent time digging into Brodeur. I do know, however, that there seem to be mixed views about how great he really was/is. ?)
Heh. Martin Brodeur's career has been as thoroughly discussed on this board as any, especially a year or two ago.

This year that energy has gone into the Lidstrom discussions.

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12-15-2011, 10:15 PM
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Lindbergh was 9th in "Golden Stick" voting for the best player in Europe in 1978-79. That means... something.

He was apparently the only goalie not to lose to Team USA in the 1980 Olympics and was praised a lot for his performance.

So he was fairly highly thought of before he joined the NHL.

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12-16-2011, 07:41 AM
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Pelle Lindbergh was also voted the best goalie in 1978 WJC.

He was AHL MVP and Goaltender of the year in 1980-81.

He stood out all the way up the goaltending ladder.

In his 3 full NHL seasons for goalies playing more than 100 games, Lindberg was third in wins behind Peeters and Moog and 3rd in GAA trailing only Peeters and Pat Riggin.

He's an incomplete work, but his resume was well beyond average.

Oh wait, that all happened only because he played on great defensive teams.

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12-16-2011, 08:24 AM
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One thing that should be mentioned, is the Mike Keenan factor.

Keenan generally gets derided for how he handles goalies, and yes he pulled them far more often than anyone else, but he generally gets the best out of his goalies.

A list of goalies that played their best under Keenan:

Lindbergh
Froese
Hextall
Richter
Dafoe

If not their best, excellence early in their careers:

Belfour - may not have been his absolute peak, but a Calder, Vezina and Jennings
Fuhr - had arguably his finest season under Keenan in 1996

Luongo - a couple of great years in Florida

Where it didn't work out:

His goaltending while in Vancouver was a trainwreck, he didn't get the best out of any of that group.

Curtis Joseph

Kiprusoff - He wasn't bad under Keenan, but he didn't play as well as he had the previous seasons.

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12-16-2011, 09:04 AM
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Yes, Lindbergh was successful before the NHL. He made himself a name as early as a 16(?) year old in the popular televized tournament TV-pucken, where he was voted best goaltender of the tournament. (It was a tournament for 15 or 16 year olds.) He then was successful basically whereever he ended up.

Regarding the 1980 Olympics game vs USA, I remember the media headlines about how Sweden somewhat disappointed but Lindbergh was great. Lindbergh was leading the Swedes to a 2-1 win, when USA equalized with just a half minute left of the game. Both teams continued to do a good/great tournament, with Sweden ending 3rd and being the only team (to play USA) that didn't lose against USA.

Speaking about goalies, Holecek was no longer the goalie of Czechoslovakia, who failed to reach top-4.

Still I find it interesting that Froese competed so well statistically against Lindbergh. I haven't looked into schedule, to see if Froese got easy games and Lindbergh hard.


Last edited by plusandminus: 12-16-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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12-16-2011, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, Brodeur's backups had great stats in the 5 games per season they played against the absolute worst teams in the league
There is goalies who played a bigger sample size of games than those you are referring to. Clemmenson, Hedberg and Dunham had great stats too.

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12-16-2011, 01:04 PM
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Having seen him play, I have no doubt he was the best goalie in the NHL at the time of his death. That has nothing to do with nostalga. That has to do with my feelings at the time. Lingbergh was a hell of a goaltender and IMO, at his best, better than Peeters in 83, Hextall in 87 and Roy in 89 the three other best Vezina winning seasons of the 80's.

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