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How much are you willing to give for that #1 C?

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Old
12-15-2011, 07:23 PM
  #76
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Darcy's biggest weakness is his inability to improve the team on the fly. His in-season deals have been low magnitude, often strikeout type deals (Moore, Torres). Never once has he shook the team after a rough start and traded someone key or someone of value to get a return. He likes to wait for the offseason to gauge the markets, view rosters for traceable pieces after other teams make their FA moves… I would anticipate that maintaining itself. Which sucks.
How much of this do you think is in relation to the ownership situation in the past? I'm not trying to defend Regier. I think he's done a good job of keeping NHL quality talent in the pipeline through two team dismemberments. I've always thought of him as a close-to-the-vest trader, knowing that one big bust of a trade could hurt the organization's depth.

Regier made the Boyes trade after Pegula became the owner. Maybe the shackles are off. We'll see. I'd like to see an in-season shake-up.

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12-15-2011, 07:34 PM
  #77
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If I'm running the team, which I'm not...

... fortunately for all Buffalo fans, this is what I'd do:

1.) Start with the assumption that the Cup team is focused on the Adam, Kassian, Myers core, not the current core. That's the schwerpunkt that guides all other actions in the near-future. I'd consider adding Sekera, McNabb, and possibly Ennis to this group, all for different reasons.

2.) Get a #1 center. I don't buy the argument that a team doesn't need one. Yes, some teams win big without them. It's so much easier, and more sustainable, to win with a #1 center. I'd make multiple tries to acquire one, as opposed to banking on just one move.

Eg: I'd work to acquire someone like Stastny, who has real ability to be a true #1 center long-term.

I'd then work to acquire a boom-or-bust type of #1 center, like Brassard, so long as the cost was low. This is a similar move to the Briere trade.

I'd then work to acquire a high draft choice to get the #1 center prospect. Anyone outside the "new core" is available for trade.

3.) Choose a more rugged style of play, similar to Boston's, Philadelphia's, and Chicago's, over the puck possession style of team. Buffalo isn't the eastern version of Detroit, nor does it have the talent of Pittsburgh. I'd pick this identity, which matches my core, and build off it.

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12-15-2011, 08:19 PM
  #78
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Maybe trade Roy to Washington for the first round pick they got for Varlamov, and then package that with our first round pick and move up to select Galchenyuk or Grigorenko (I'd personally prefer Galchenyuk), and then we have our franchise center for the next 15 years.

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12-15-2011, 08:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
... fortunately for all Buffalo fans, this is what I'd do:

1.) Start with the assumption that the Cup team is focused on the Adam, Kassian, Myers core, not the current core. That's the schwerpunkt that guides all other actions in the near-future. I'd consider adding Sekera, McNabb, and possibly Ennis to this group, all for different reasons.

2.) Get a #1 center. I don't buy the argument that a team doesn't need one. Yes, some teams win big without them. It's so much easier, and more sustainable, to win with a #1 center. I'd make multiple tries to acquire one, as opposed to banking on just one move.

Eg: I'd work to acquire someone like Stastny, who has real ability to be a true #1 center long-term.

I'd then work to acquire a boom-or-bust type of #1 center, like Brassard, so long as the cost was low. This is a similar move to the Briere trade.

I'd then work to acquire a high draft choice to get the #1 center prospect. Anyone outside the "new core" is available for trade.

3.) Choose a more rugged style of play, similar to Boston's, Philadelphia's, and Chicago's, over the puck possession style of team. Buffalo isn't the eastern version of Detroit, nor does it have the talent of Pittsburgh. I'd pick this identity, which matches my core, and build off it.
Totally agree with 1 and 2. And while I am open to 3, I prefer the Detroit style, you can still have your bangers (Kassian, McNabb, Weber, etc) and play that style. But I agree, more grit is necessary, and a number one center.

I would trade Stafford for Gagner, Hecht and a pick for Nielsen and then in the off-season trade Roy to the Capitals for Cody Eakin and the 2012 1st round pick they received from Colorado.

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12-15-2011, 09:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Totally agree with 1 and 2. And while I am open to 3, I prefer the Detroit style, you can still have your bangers (Kassian, McNabb, Weber, etc) and play that style. But I agree, more grit is necessary, and a number one center.

I would trade Stafford for Gagner, Hecht and a pick for Nielsen and then in the off-season trade Roy to the Capitals for Cody Eakin and the 2012 1st round pick they received from Colorado.
I'm not exactly sure what I would do. With a gun to my head, and having to make the moves now, I'd go with these three trades:

Stafford, Hecht to Colorado for Stastny. Buffalo loses about $900K.

Leopold to Columbus for Brassard. Buffalo adds about #200K.

Roy, Gragnani, 1st Round pick to Anaheim for Lydman, Hagman, 1st Round pick. Roughly even money-wise (Anaheim adds $50K). Buffalo targets a top center with Anaheim's pick.

Vanek-Stastny-Pominville
Ennis-Adam-Kassian
Leino-Brassard-Boyes
Hagman/Gerbe-Gaustad-Kaleta
McCormick

Lydman-Myers
Regehr-Ehrhoff
Sekera-Weber
McNabb

Miller
Enroth

Armia, top center, Brennan, Pysyk in system.

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12-15-2011, 09:51 PM
  #81
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^ That Colorado offer is so much in our favor, no chance the Avs do that.

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12-16-2011, 12:34 AM
  #82
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I would trade Ennis, Stafford and our first rounder every day of the week and twice on sunday for Koivu, Getzlaf, Malkin, Staal.....

To be honest, for Malkin or Getzlaf I would deal Ennis, Stafford, Roy, first 2012 and 2013.....

I know that we would give up a lot.
But Malkin or Getzlaf would be exactly that kind of center we lack.

After that blockbuster move I would try to get Brassard, Bailey or nielsen. All of that three need a change of scenery and have got a low price at the moment.

I would favor Nielsen because he is a great defensive center with awesome passing abilities but I would be ok with Brassard or bailey too.

So I would deal Boyes, Grags and a 3rd for any of Nielsen, Brassard or Bailey.

Then we look at:

Vanek - Malkin/Getzlaf - Pomineville
Leino - Adam - Kassian
Hecht - Nielsen/Brassard/Bailey - Tropp
Gerbe - Gaustad - Kaleta

Then we have got a nice forward group without touching our defense.

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12-16-2011, 01:48 AM
  #83
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How about signing an RFA like O'Reilly. Maybe Colorado won't give him up in a trade, but maybe with their internal cap, Buffalo offers something that Colorado can't/isn't willing to match for him and they give up the picks (maybe a 1st and a 3rd).

I think other than that, if it doesn't work, or even if it did, trade Stafford to Edmonton for Sam Gagner. Maybe he pulls a Briere here and turns his career around. Trade Roy to Phoenix for Hanzal, or if they won't do it, for Turris and their 1st round pick. That kid needs a change of scenery unlike any other. The pick can be packaged with our own in order to move up in the draft and maybe select a guy like Galchenyuk. Maybe move Hecht and our 2nd at the deadline to the Islanders for Nielsen. Trade Miller in the off-season for some package of picks and prospects, maybe Tampa Bay for Brett Connolly and a 1st, or Columbus for some type of package.

The old core is not good enough to win. Trade them off for assets that can combine with our new young core, keep a couple guys of the old core (Vanek and Pominville), and others to become the veterans of the team (Erhoff, Boyes, I'm sorry no one likes him, but I do feel like Boyes gives an effort he's just not quite "right" for some reason). If you trade Miller, it creates room to sign another goalie to form a new tandem with Enroth (Josh Harding, Thomas Vokun, Brian Elliot, MARTY BIRON, etc.).

People are acting like there aren't options. There are options, but the team needs to make sure that they keep all options open and realize that the old core isn't going to do it. It starts with moving Roy and Stafford, and if the right deal comes, Miller as well.

It seems like too many deals and signings of centers, but it's what we need. Get three or four guys in here who can compete for top-6 playing time, the others can be put on the wing, or if they don't fit on the team, waive them, or put them in Rochester.

I'm just getting sick of people saying they're sick of the core, and then seeing deals that involve Stafford for Stoll. Why, if this team as it is currently constructed, is not going to win a championship, would you propose trades that are mere "facelift" trades? This team does not need a simple facelift. They need to restructure the depth and talent of their organization. The focus needs to be on younger, hungrier, more physical players, and centers. Not on older players who are mere stopgaps that will keep them out of the basement but also short of the top echelon in the league, as they've been since they lost Briere and Drury.

Imagine a depth chart of...

L1 Vanek-O'Reilly/Hanzal-Pominville
L2 Leino-Gagner-Kassian
L3 Ennis-Adam-Boyes
L4 Gerbe-Nielsen-Kaleta

Ex) Foligno-Turris-Tropp (and just think how bad Turris needs some time in the AHL
Ex) Ellis-Sudher-Armia
-Galchenyuk

I'm not saying all that could happen, but maybe if even two of them did (maybe O'Reilly and Gagner, or Hanzal and Nielsen, it makes the center depth a lot better in the long run, especially if they found a way to get a top center prospect like Galchenyuk as well, and who knows, the way they're playing they might not need to trade up to draft him if they keep it up.)


Last edited by dkollidas: 12-16-2011 at 04:15 AM.
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12-16-2011, 12:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
It seems like too many deals and signings of centers, but it's what we need. Get three or four guys in here who can compete for top-6 playing time, the others can be put on the wing, or if they don't fit on the team, waive them, or put them in Rochester.
I agree with what you're saying here. One of the strong points of the 06-07 team were the number of guys that could take shifts at center. Briere, Drury, Roy, and Connolly were the centers, but Gaustad was also capable in the middle for the 4th line, and Hecht could take some shifts at center. The team added Zubrus as well. I think the depth at center was what made the "rolling line" concept effective.

I'm not romantic about the team, but conceptually, it makes a lot of sense to have 5-6 centers at the NHL level. As you said, some could play wing. Drury, Gaustad, and Zubrus did at times.

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12-16-2011, 12:04 PM
  #85
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^ That Colorado offer is so much in our favor, no chance the Avs do that.
Maybe. I was talking conceptually, not what I thought the trades should be. Insert your favorite centers in for Stastny and Brassard, and it's the same concept.

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12-16-2011, 12:16 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
How about signing an RFA like O'Reilly. Maybe Colorado won't give him up in a trade, but maybe with their internal cap, Buffalo offers something that Colorado can't/isn't willing to match for him and they give up the picks (maybe a 1st and a 3rd).
I'm guessing that the 7/1/2011 spending spree and extending guys like Stafford and Myers makes that highly unlikely.

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12-16-2011, 01:34 PM
  #87
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I'm guessing that the 7/1/2011 spending spree and extending guys like Stafford and Myers makes that highly unlikely.
Unless they trade Stafford at the deadline and Roy around the draft. That alone creates $8m in cap space. Then consider Gaustad, Hecht, and Boyes contracts running out. That's another $10m in cap space. Myers goes up about $4m per season in cap space, and then figure Ennis goes up another 1.5m that still leaves $12.5m to sign guys. Kassian and Tropp will likely make the team next season, and maybe they re-sign Hecht or Boyes for around $2m next year. That's about $4m. You have another $8.5m to spend (this is just on the fly accounting here). You have room to make O'Reilly a significant offer ($4m per season or more depending how his year finishes out) to try and pry him away from Colorado. Then if like I said they did trade Stafford for Gagner that's likely another 2.5m to resign him, so that along with O'Reilly (even at $4.5m) leaves the Sabres with about $1.5m in space, and that's if the cap stays where it is.

I'm just saying they need to keep their options open.

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12-16-2011, 01:47 PM
  #88
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Unless they trade Stafford at the deadline and Roy around the draft. That alone creates $8m in cap space. Then consider Gaustad, Hecht, and Boyes contracts running out. That's another $10m in cap space. Myers goes up about $4m per season in cap space, and then figure Ennis goes up another 1.5m that still leaves $12.5m to sign guys. Kassian and Tropp will likely make the team next season, and maybe they re-sign Hecht or Boyes for around $2m next year. That's about $4m. You have another $8.5m to spend (this is just on the fly accounting here). You have room to make O'Reilly a significant offer ($4m per season or more depending how his year finishes out) to try and pry him away from Colorado. Then if like I said they did trade Stafford for Gagner that's likely another 2.5m to resign him, so that along with O'Reilly (even at $4.5m) leaves the Sabres with about $1.5m in space, and that's if the cap stays where it is.

I'm just saying they need to keep their options open.
They have $5.7M +/- the delta in the cap from YTY to spend on about 5 forwards as they are set in goal and MAG as an RFA is the only expiring contract of note on the blueline.

Boyes, Hecht, and Gaustad are all slated to hit UFA with Kaleta and Ennis hitting RFA.

O'Reilly would be a great add. I just don't know that Regier will go down the RFA Offer Sheet road, nor do I know if they would give O'Reilly an offer that the Avs won't match.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Avs valued O'Reilly over Stastny right now.

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12-16-2011, 02:18 PM
  #89
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Maybe. I was talking conceptually, not what I thought the trades should be. Insert your favorite centers in for Stastny and Brassard, and it's the same concept.
I wouldn't say favorite. I would say younger. Guys who are prospects or on the verge of leaving that prospect status. Stastny is good. But at that price I'd rather move pieces to find someone who really is worth $6m+ per season. I just think that's the direction they should move in. As Jame stated in an earlier post from a week or so ago, they should've bottomed out last season and had a shot at RNH or Couturier or Strome or someone of that nature.

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12-16-2011, 03:08 PM
  #90
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Getzlaf has a cap hit that is almost $1M less than Stastny.

I'd much rather dream about Roy+whatever it takes for Getzlaf than a deal that centers around Roy for Stastny.

And it's all dreams because I can't see Regier dealing Roy's contract.

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12-16-2011, 03:29 PM
  #91
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Getzlaf has a cap hit that is almost $1M less than Stastny.

I'd much rather dream about Roy+whatever it takes for Getzlaf than a deal that centers around Roy for Stastny.

And it's all dreams because I can't see Regier dealing Roy's contract.
i'd much rather have Getzlaf then about 97.8% of players in this league... but Getzlaf is far less likely to be available then Stastny.

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12-16-2011, 07:33 PM
  #92
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But with this core not being the core we see winning, why trade for an Eric Staal or Ryan Getzlaf who will not he able on their own to lift this core of players (Roy, Stafford, Vanek, Pominville, Miller) to championship level (at least in my opinion) while trading off assets (Kassian, McNabb, Ennis, Adam, Gerbe, Enroth) who could be the core that does lead us to the cup.

The goal should be to trade underachieving, overhyped players like Roy, Stafford, and maybe Miller in order to gain the pieces necessary to allow us to get a young number one center whom this team can form it's younger core of guys around.

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12-17-2011, 12:59 AM
  #93
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If I was the GM of another team in the rebuilding stage....I would be trying to acquire Myers, Kassian, McNabb and Luc Adam and include them in most trade offers....Alot of trades depend on the team and their reasoning for making the trade (Salary dump, Playoff run, Change of scenary, Non Production, Rebuild) The same players we want to keep are the same players that other GMs want to acquire especially when trading one of their valued players.

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12-17-2011, 01:19 AM
  #94
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Avs fan here guys, sorry to crash your board but a few of the posts had me scratching my head.
1) if Stattford+Hecht is your best offer for Stastny then go look elsewhere.
2) Who the **** thought you could get O'Reilly? First of all, we don't have cap problems. We've saved up for this season because we have so many FA. And if you did offersheet O'Reilly we'd definitely match anything up to 5 million. Possibly more. On top of that, if you offersheeted our guys, you'd see some massive offer sheets coming to Myers, Ennis, Kassian etc when they come up I guarentee you'd regret it if you went down that road.
3) Yes, Stastny could be had. If we move him though it'll require overpayment, and we'd be more looking for a quality for quality trade. Our need is good young wingers/top pairing d-man.

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12-17-2011, 02:18 AM
  #95
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If I was the GM of another team in the rebuilding stage....I would be trying to acquire Myers, Kassian, McNabb and Luc Adam and include them in most trade offers....Alot of trades depend on the team and their reasoning for making the trade (Salary dump, Playoff run, Change of scenary, Non Production, Rebuild) The same players we want to keep are the same players that other GMs want to acquire especially when trading one of their valued players.
Maybe yes, but at the same time, I'm just sick of seeing all these proposals for guys like Stoll, or Morrow, Shane Doan, or whichever veteran. Don't get me wrong, I've made quite a few myself, but no more!!! I'm SICK of seeing this organization make tit for tat deals that tinker with the team, adding veterans to our lackluster core of players, all the while ignoring the fact that if we desire to win a Stanley Cup, we need a number one center. Well, how do we get one? And yes, I know that a lot of these ideas don't often happen, but they do sometimes happen...

1. Trade- Philadelphia got Schenn, and the pick for Couturier when dealing Richards and Carter. People will say their value is higher, but I would argue that to many people, Roy and Carter have pretty similar value, so there is an ability to do something there.

2. Free Agency- This is the least likely scenario for acquiring a young franchise center because many centers don't hit the UFA market. Maybe go after an RFA. I know Darcy doesn't like to, but if they're going to be in that limbo where they don't contend for a title, but they don't bottom out and pick highly enough, then maybe they need to move some of those mid-first round picks as compensation for signing an RFA. This is why I brought up O'Reilly. I'm not saying it will or is likely to happen, but I'm saying that it may be an available option.

3. Draft- We haven't been bad enough to pick highly enough to get a franchise guy through the draft like RNH or Seguin, or Stamkos. What we could do is trade pieces that are already on the squad, that are part of the core that won't succeed any time soon (Roy, Stafford, Miller, Gaustad, even Pominville or Vanek for the right price), and use those pieces to get high enough in the draft to select an elite center.

I'm just so tired of this group of guys. I feel like we're floating in purgatory right now. This team is not exciting at all to watch. Their best player (Miller) complains and moans and gets pissy all the time, their next best player (Vanek) is not the type of guy who can carry a team on his back for a deep playoff run. And their best young player (Myers) is going through growing pains as he learns he has to be able to beat on guys in the corners, and that will help him get opportunities offensively by just playing a simple game and not trying to overdo anything. Their best hope at center right now is Luke Adam. Don't get me wrong, I really like the kid, but the NHL is about speed, and he's adequate at that, but nothing more. I want him to, and hope he can become, a 2nd line 30 goal 60 point type player who can play solid in his own zone. I feel though that he'll end up as a 20 goal 45 point 3rd liner who can fill in at times on the second line. Nothing to sneeze at, an important piece, but not THE piece.

The only guys I really, really consider "untouchable" right now, are Kassian, and Myers. That's it. I'd like to keep Vanek and Pominville, but if it means getting "that guy", our Getzlaf, Staal, or Zetterberg, then see ya later.

And it wasn't last season not bottoming out that killed this team. It was after the second ECF loss, when we lost Briere and Drury, and matched the Vanek offer from Edmonton. I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter what fans say, if they're mad you lost the other two guys. In the hockey world you go ahead and take those picks. Imagine if we had guys like RNH, Hall, MPS, and Eberle. Maybe not those exact guys, but who knows, and along with our own picks, it would have meant over 1/3 of our roster could have been filled with 1st round picks from 2008-2011.

I'm sick of watching this team suffer through mediocrity.
Make the moves. Whatever it takes. Get this team a guy who will be the face of the franchise, along with Myers, for the next 15-20 years. Fill out a nice young core around said players, and go win the damn Cup already!!!!

As I said... I'm just sick of not having an elite level non-goalie (sorry, I loved Hasek, but...) players like other clubs (Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Anaheim etc.

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12-17-2011, 02:37 AM
  #96
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Maybe yes, but at the same time, I'm just sick of seeing all these proposals for guys like Stoll, or Morrow, Shane Doan, or whichever veteran. Don't get me wrong, I've made quite a few myself, but no more!!! I'm SICK of seeing this organization make tit for tat deals that tinker with the team, adding veterans to our lackluster core of players, all the while ignoring the fact that if we desire to win a Stanley Cup, we need a number one center. Well, how do we get one? And yes, I know that a lot of these ideas don't often happen, but they do sometimes happen...

I'm just so tired of this group of guys. I feel like we're floating in purgatory right now. This team is not exciting at all to watch. Their best player (Miller) complains and moans and gets pissy all the time, their next best player (Vanek) is not the type of guy who can carry a team on his back for a deep playoff run. And their best young player (Myers) is going through growing pains as he learns he has to be able to beat on guys in the corners, and that will help him get opportunities offensively by just playing a simple game and not trying to overdo anything. Their best hope at center right now is Luke Adam. Don't get me wrong, I really like the kid, but the NHL is about speed, and he's adequate at that, but nothing more. I want him to, and hope he can become, a 2nd line 30 goal 60 point type player who can play solid in his own zone. I feel though that he'll end up as a 20 goal 45 point 3rd liner who can fill in at times on the second line. Nothing to sneeze at, an important piece, but not THE piece.

I'm sick of watching this team suffer through mediocrity.
Make the moves. Whatever it takes. Get this team a guy who will be the face of the franchise, along with Myers, for the next 15-20 years. Fill out a nice young core around said players, and go win the damn Cup already!!!!

As I said... I'm just sick of not having an elite level non-goalie (sorry, I loved Hasek, but...) players like other clubs (Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Anaheim etc.
Are you sick AND tired?

I would trade anyone on the Sabres and Amerks, if it meant it makes the club closer to being a true cup contender. No one should be beyond trading

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12-17-2011, 02:45 AM
  #97
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Are you sick AND tired?

I would trade anyone on the Sabres and Amerks, if it meant it makes the club closer to being a true cup contender. No one should be beyond trading
What can I say, 25 years of being a Sabres and Bills fan can do that to you... but yes, sick. And tired. I want a guy who I can say "wow, so and so are good, but our guy is the best in the league, and he's proven it through the winning championship(s)".

But the point is who I see proposals and actual deals for. The core is weak, and a new franchise players needs to be brought in for this team to really contend.

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12-17-2011, 05:54 AM
  #98
eml8757
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Need a new and durable tim connolly. Someone who could make time and space in the offensive zone. A dangle here, a fake there, and assists galore. Roy is too small, predictable, and much slower than he used to be.

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12-17-2011, 06:47 AM
  #99
Digable5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
What can I say, 25 years of being a Sabres and Bills fan can do that to you... but yes, sick. And tired. I want a guy who I can say "wow, so and so are good, but our guy is the best in the league, and he's proven it through the winning championship(s)".

But the point is who I see proposals and actual deals for. The core is weak, and a new franchise players needs to be brought in for this team to really contend.
How many "best in the league" players are there exactly?

I can see both sides of the arguement. As much as we want to win now and get a proven #1 C, I feel we'd have to give up the big, young prospects that are the type of players we've said we need in the playoffs for years. I could be talked into moving McNabb, but Kassian is about near untouchable to me.

On the other hand, it would be tough to give up guys like Roy and Stafford for essentially prospects, but last year we did pretty well without Roy. Stafford is heating up, but besides his spurts of offense, he's not as physical or defensively responsible as we'd like. Moving them would not only (hopefully) add some young talent and draft picks, but it would also give us more cap space for future moves at the deadline or in free agency.

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12-17-2011, 08:21 AM
  #100
static80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
What can I say, 25 years of being a Sabres and Bills fan can do that to you... but yes, sick. And tired. I want a guy who I can say "wow, so and so are good, but our guy is the best in the league, and he's proven it through the winning championship(s)".

But the point is who I see proposals and actual deals for. The core is weak, and a new franchise players needs to be brought in for this team to really contend.
After 41 years of being a Buffalo sports fan I could care less about one of our players being best in the league.

I want a Stanley Cup before I pass away.

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