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Messier battling Canucks for $ UPD: Awarded $6m by Arbitrator

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Old
08-04-2012, 02:34 PM
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hackey View Post
Exactly, came to post this
Blame he stupidity of the ownership at that time,
and the brilliance of Messier's agent for putting in a clause like this

Now go away
From a purely financial perspective, yes, blame the incompetence of ownership or credit Messier's agent, but how is Messier not at fault here? While I do not have first hand according. Many have attested he basically mailed it in every other night and drove Linden out of town with his prima donna attitude. I doubt anyone could have predicted he would play like trash or demand something as mundane as captaincy.

Ownership may have lacked a spine but Messier was a complete jackass by all accounts. Both are to blame one way or another.

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08-04-2012, 02:42 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I'm just wondering how you guys can honestly put all the blame on Messier when explaining why the Canucks weren't very good in his term here. It seems to me that the Canucks were trying to win with Messier, an injured Mogilny and Bure, a Naslund/Bertuzzi who weren't yet star players, questionable defense, and a string of backup goalies. Messier certainly wasn't good in Vancouver, that is obvious, but I think the GM didn't give your team much of an opportunity to win with the talent he iced, regardless of Messier being there or not. Maybe expectations were simply too high with bringing him in.
because he was the captain and he made things worse and not better.

similar to naslund. yeah, cloutier, bertuzzi, etc. were worse in the playoffs, but markus sure as hell wasn't part of the solution.

not to say that messier wasn't the worst when he was here, of course.

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08-04-2012, 03:19 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by TedTheTerror View Post
Guys, if you were with a company and part of your deal was that if the company ever made money you got 6 million dollars, would you not collect? Even if you got fired... Its 6 million dollars.

From here on out Messier shall be banished from all Canucks talk. We shall only bring him up in jokes like ' MAN REMEMBER WHEN MESSIER HELPED THE CANUCKS '.

End it now.
Really now, how many people are going to find themselves in a position to collect $6m for doing nothing? That's pretty much exclusive to CEO territory. Would most people take it if it was them? Probably. However in reality most people would be the ones left unemployed while the guy at top who screwed things up walks away with the millions. You think saying all the people left with the **** end of the stick who are about to undergo some downsizing are just gonna smile and say 'oh I would have taken the money too!'

Like I said earlier Messier got this contract clause because he was supposed to be a star first line center and a legendary leader, and our team was badly in need of someone to get back on track. But he got here and was nothing but a complete fraud, and royally screwed the team up.

Of course it's not my money, but I reserve the right to loathe Messier because I was a fan of the team at the time so got to 'enjoy' those Messier years. Knowing now that he had a golden parachute and is taken money out of our current team only makes it worse.

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08-04-2012, 04:45 PM
  #404
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I'd pay him an extra 500k under condition that he never mentions, visits, or looks at Vancouver or our hockey club.

Seriously, this clown burnt through his Lays money? I've gotta wonder where the heck it all went.

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08-04-2012, 04:49 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I'd pay him an extra 500k under condition that he never mentions, visits, or looks at Vancouver or our hockey club.

Seriously, this clown burnt through his Lays money? I've gotta wonder where the heck it all went.
He did? Post a link. I don't think he is that dumb.

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08-04-2012, 05:00 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by BlueChip01 View Post
He did? Post a link. I don't think he is that dumb.
Speculating. If he's coming after the Canucks, I assume he must have set money on fire somewhere, or has some kind of project that he needs cash for. Its been 12 years...why now?

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08-04-2012, 06:27 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I'm just wondering how you guys can honestly put all the blame on Messier when explaining why the Canucks weren't very good in his term here. It seems to me that the Canucks were trying to win with Messier, an injured Mogilny and Bure, a Naslund/Bertuzzi who weren't yet star players, questionable defense, and a string of backup goalies. Messier certainly wasn't good in Vancouver, that is obvious, but I think the GM didn't give your team much of an opportunity to win with the talent he iced, regardless of Messier being there or not. Maybe expectations were simply too high with bringing him in.
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
Hardly. The 96-97 Canucks were a 9th place team in the West, who missed the playoffs by 4 points. The team in prior years had been making the playoffs, including of course their Stanley Cup run in '94. The two seasons prior to signing Messier, the supposed 'greatest leader in hockey', the points he put up were 74-47-52-99 and 71-36-48-84.

Obviously he was the most sought after free agent that off season, and you were a team that was close that signs the biggest name in the off season you expect improvement, not to tank it and fall all the way down to last place in the conference. Even if Messier's body was failing and he couldn't put up the points anymore you'd expect his vaunted "leadership", again remember he was supposed to be legendary in this regard, could rally the team and lead them to success. But instead he mailed it in on the ice and tore the team apart through his open access to the front office.

Make no mistake, Messier was a blight on the Canucks existence, credit to the teams turn around at the turn of the century belongs to Brian Burke and Marc Crawford.
This is the key to it though. The team missed the playoffs prior to Messier being there, and was already on a downward spiral. Kirk McLean was past being even a serviceable NHL goalie at that time, you may as well have been playing Richard Brodeur. And the Canucks defense wasn't good. Bure of course was awesome, Mogilny as well, although he had some injury issues at that time. The Canucks were headed on a downturn regardless of Messier being there or not, you can see that yourself in them going from a cup contender, to a playoff team, to missing the playoffs before he even got there. I'm not saying Messier was effective, or even that he wasn't a problem, but you guys are overlooking that there wasn't much of a supporting cast, especially in terms of keeping the pucks out of the net. That may have worked in the high scoring 80's, but not the dead puck era. It WAS Messier's fault. But it was more the fault of Canuck management surrounding Bure, Messier and Mogilny with shmoes. I will agree that they did do a great job of building a solid team long term though, and that Brian Burke deserves a lot of credit for that.

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08-04-2012, 06:29 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Speculating. If he's coming after the Canucks, I assume he must have set money on fire somewhere, or has some kind of project that he needs cash for. Its been 12 years...why now?
Because he actually realized that the Canucks owe him money. The article made it sound like he didn`t realize that the value of the team increased while he was there, which is what the stipulation was. I don`t think financial difficulties have anything to do with it, and even if it did, who cares, he`s entitled to it because that is what was in the contract.

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08-04-2012, 06:56 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
Really now, how many people are going to find themselves in a position to collect $6m for doing nothing? That's pretty much exclusive to CEO territory. Would most people take it if it was them? Probably. However in reality most people would be the ones left unemployed while the guy at top who screwed things up walks away with the millions. You think saying all the people left with the **** end of the stick who are about to undergo some downsizing are just gonna smile and say 'oh I would have taken the money too!'

Like I said earlier Messier got this contract clause because he was supposed to be a star first line center and a legendary leader, and our team was badly in need of someone to get back on track. But he got here and was nothing but a complete fraud, and royally screwed the team up.

Of course it's not my money, but I reserve the right to loathe Messier because I was a fan of the team at the time so got to 'enjoy' those Messier years. Knowing now that he had a golden parachute and is taken money out of our current team only makes it worse.
Do not misunderstand me. I ****ing hate Messier. Can we ban him from coming into BC? We should start a petition.

I only defend his right to claim on the written contract, as it is a legal agreement. Otherwise **** him.

I remember when he signed in Vancouver, I was so excited. I had no idea it would cause me to almost stop watching the Canucks. Apparently Messier mentored Naslund into the player he became, if thats true we can give him SOME credit. Naslund Bertuzzi and Morrison pulled this franchise out of the crater it had become.

EDIT: But in all fairness, atleast we aren't the Flames. They have been awful FOREVER. There was a span of 3 years where they were a good team, but it dipped off quickly. We have the luxury of being a good team for almost 10 years now.

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Old
08-04-2012, 08:47 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
This is the key to it though. The team missed the playoffs prior to Messier being there, and was already on a downward spiral. Kirk McLean was past being even a serviceable NHL goalie at that time, you may as well have been playing Richard Brodeur. And the Canucks defense wasn't good. Bure of course was awesome, Mogilny as well, although he had some injury issues at that time. The Canucks were headed on a downturn regardless of Messier being there or not, you can see that yourself in them going from a cup contender, to a playoff team, to missing the playoffs before he even got there. I'm not saying Messier was effective, or even that he wasn't a problem, but you guys are overlooking that there wasn't much of a supporting cast, especially in terms of keeping the pucks out of the net. That may have worked in the high scoring 80's, but not the dead puck era. It WAS Messier's fault. But it was more the fault of Canuck management surrounding Bure, Messier and Mogilny with shmoes. I will agree that they did do a great job of building a solid team long term though, and that Brian Burke deserves a lot of credit for that.
Your timing isn't quite right here. Yes management was a mess at the time, we had Pat Quinn take us to the finals in '94 but much like Sutter in Calgary his management was a real mess after that and suffering from a bit of an old boys club atmosphere, favouring Canucks alumni for management and scouting positions regardless of their competence. I don't remember exactly how it all went down, but the Messier signing coincided with the Quinn getting the boot and they brought in Messier's old bud Mike Keenan to run the show.

You said that the Canucks management did a poor job surrounding Messer/Bure/Mogilny with talent, but for two years management basically was the Messier + Keenan combo. Keenan was pulling the trigger on trades but not without input from his BFF Messier. It was a disaster until ownership finally canned Keenan near or at the end of Messier year 2 (and a good thing to as I recall rumours that he was looking at trading Naslund?), and Messier year 3 was when Burke got brought in and finally started setting the team straight.

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Old
08-04-2012, 10:09 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by kevinsane View Post
He was a fraud. How a leadership award can be named for a guy that coasted here for three years just amazes me. I'm not talking production, I'm talking EFFORT. It wasn't there. I'm sure he talked a good game, and he had the reputation that made others listen. Lead?! Don't make me laugh.
What a joke , he was a fraud . Every player he played with while with the Canucks said he made them better . He led the team in scoring when he was not injured . He getting paid what he should have been paid . That is fair . All the rest can be debated , but the trades had nothing to do with him .

edit: CM

Even if you say the trade of Linden was his Fault look at what come back . Now look at what those player were trade for . Lou and one of the twins , and i would say the way Canucks fans value Lou in a trade it worked out ok

take this for what you will coming from an Ex Canuck fan

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08-04-2012, 10:13 PM
  #412
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The classy thing to do would be to donate some of that $6M to Canuck place or the Children's Hospital or something.
"Classy" and "Mark Messier" do not belong in the same sentence. He was a cancer on this team and the fact that we now have to be reminded he played here with this lawsuit - and damn McCaw/Aquilini for not settling what he was contractually owed when the team was sold - is twisting the knife.

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08-04-2012, 11:34 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
And the Canucks defense wasn't good.
Not great but hardly "not good" - problem was lack of depth to handle injuries. Team was dysfunction. Team chemistry just wasn't there; what looked good on paper didn't translate into results because of that.

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08-05-2012, 01:53 PM
  #414
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I'm not too sure why Canuck fans are buttsore over all this. I just read some of the comments on this board and holy crap, talk about overreaction to this. Maybe instead of blaming/criticizing Messier over all this, they should direct their anger at the old managment for negotiating a clause like that in the first place. Does the current CBA even allow for clauses like this? I fail to see how Messier is at fault. It was in his contract and he is forcing them to honor it. The real disgrace is that it took this long to pay it out.

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08-05-2012, 02:35 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by TheStroker View Post
I'm not too sure why Canuck fans are buttsore over all this. I just read some of the comments on this board and holy crap, talk about overreaction to this. Maybe instead of blaming/criticizing Messier over all this, they should direct their anger at the old managment for negotiating a clause like that in the first place. Does the current CBA even allow for clauses like this? I fail to see how Messier is at fault. It was in his contract and he is forcing them to honor it. The real disgrace is that it took this long to pay it out.
Is that you,Mark?As far as im concerned,you failed to live up to your hype,and we over payed you,so you owe us.Actually i want my money back for your jersey i bought.so you owe me,,What a do--h,,,,

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08-05-2012, 02:39 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by TheStroker View Post
I'm not too sure why Canuck fans are buttsore over all this. I just read some of the comments on this board and holy crap, talk about overreaction to this. Maybe instead of blaming/criticizing Messier over all this, they should direct their anger at the old managment for negotiating a clause like that in the first place. Does the current CBA even allow for clauses like this? I fail to see how Messier is at fault. It was in his contract and he is forcing them to honor it. The real disgrace is that it took this long to pay it out.
I don't know if you realize how bad he was in three years here.

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08-05-2012, 02:40 PM
  #417
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Wayne Maki's #11 is all you need to know.

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08-05-2012, 02:46 PM
  #418
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Wayne Maki's #11 is all you need to know.
A number that never should have been retired in the first place really.

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08-05-2012, 02:52 PM
  #419
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... and damn McCaw/Aquilini for not settling what he was contractually owed when the team was sold - is twisting the knife.
It's hard to say whether or not the man was owed any money without seeing the actual contract. Determining when exactly the team appreciated in value is extremely difficult because a sports franchise is such an illiquid asset. Who knows how well the contract was written in terms of providing a mechanism to estimate the change in value of the franchise. Team ownership may have honestly believed that Messier wasn't entitled to anything, or perhaps the disagreement was simply about the amount he was owed. Who knows, $6M may be a number much lower than Messier's lawyers were asking for. Emotions aside, it's actually a pretty interesting case.

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Originally Posted by TheStroker View Post
... Maybe instead of blaming/criticizing Messier over all this, they should direct their anger at the old managment for negotiating a clause like that in the first place.
Clearly such a clause would not have been negotiated or even suggested by management. Past ownership is clearly to blame; it was McCaw himself who pushed so hard for Messier.

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Originally Posted by TheStroker View Post
Does the current CBA even allow for clauses like this?
Clearly not. This deal preceeded the current CBA by what, a decade?


Last edited by Chubros: 08-05-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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08-05-2012, 03:01 PM
  #420
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A number that never should have been retired in the first place really.
Maybe so, but it is hardly a decent way to make a good first impression. His subsequent action's further alienated Canuckfans. All fine and dandy if there are good results on the ice - but we all know what followed.

Bobby Orr *gave* back the money he made to the Black Hawks because he felt he didn't earn it (was injured and that & many other previous injuries led to his retirement). That's class. And it's not like he was a rich man then with Eagleson running his financial affairs.

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08-05-2012, 03:23 PM
  #421
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We should make it a law that Mark Messier must be pelted with tomatoes by passersby upon any visits to Vancouver.

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08-05-2012, 03:26 PM
  #422
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You'd have to work pretty hard to hate Messier more than I do, but if I was owed money by my employer, I'd do the same thing. Can't say I blame him for taking every dollar he is entitled to.

Although imagine if there was a cap hit associated with this? There would be another riot...

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08-05-2012, 03:33 PM
  #423
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I can't even imagine what would happen if it counted against the cap.

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08-05-2012, 04:46 PM
  #424
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He was owed the money. Case closed.

He's still a clown though.

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08-05-2012, 04:49 PM
  #425
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It almost feels like being sued by an idiot that tripped on his own foot in front of your house.

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