im not saying they should go after anything at the moment. Of course My wish is a young drafted stud who can anchor our number one spot for the rest of his career.
I was more looking at the flyers in the eyes of, "wow I really dont want to give anyone up."
you would have to see James, Sean, brayden, or matt. some combo with jakub heading the other way. With only Briere and jagr in the age of a future replacement they are set.
this team has done a fantastic job to go for a major cup run. Just this Defense going forward. kimmo is by far my favorite, meszaros was an extremely important pick up, coburn just wont take over the #1 guy, carle I love/hate (I think they will resign him), and the rookies we will have to see.
I am glad we got sean but I really really wanted them to move up for larsson. this up coming draft will be very very important.
I guess my answer in the end would be there is no one I want to give up Mr. Snider.
Last edited by whskybarJM: 12-17-2011 at 11:07 AM.
Wait. So you would honestly rather trade: Schenn, JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, Mez, Coburn, Bob, etc.... than Matt Read?
He's a nice player. But this hype is getting a little out of hand...
Well, like someone said after me, his cap hit counts. Obviously, Schenn and JVR are better players, but to acquire Weber or Suter, you definitely have to give up one of them.
The fact about Read is that his trade value would be way under what he's worth imo, and I would try not to put him in a package deal. And, even if he's in his prime in terms of age, he's not at his best yet, since it's his first year in the NHL. The guy will learn a lot and in 3-4 years, he could very well be an incredible player. He's a lock for our top 6.
Listen, count the number of teams over the last 25 years who have wona Cup without having at least one superstar DMan in their lineup. I can only think of a few, perhaps TB and Carolina.... Even the Bruins last year were a rarity cuz they had only one bona fide DMan superstar Chara (Kaberle underperformed, Sedidenberg is no superstar, and who the heck is Johny Boychuk)...
Yeah, to have a good shot at a Cup you need at least two superstar Dmen. At the moment we have one, who is old and perhaps a year away from retirement.
Few teams win Cups with a whole bunch of 'good Dmen'.. they win with a pair iof superstars, another pair of good Dmen of the same caliber as Coburn and Mesz, and another bottom pairing who hardly play any minutes at all.
That's the formula on defense folks. Two superstars, two good Dmen, and two nobodies.
Right now we have one elderly superstar (Timo) and three good Dmen (Coburn, Mesz, and possibly Carle). Shortly we nay be down to zero superstars, plus the latter three mentionned.
4 of the last 7 haven't followed your formula for winning. 50% of the Cup winners since the salary cap has been instituted don't have 2 superstars.
Yeah, if anything going back the past 25 years, it looks like having a deep defense becomes more important. Gone are the days when you could have your top guys logging 30 minutes each and leave scrap minutes for the bottom pair.
Of course, there is no real formula as to how you win a cup. One year, it's all about the goalie. The year after, the goalie has more or less tried to give the cup away but has been bailed out by the rest of the team.
There is nobody aside from Giroux who I wouldn't give up to get Shea Weber. Whatever it takes, you acquire him. Period.
Same here. Schenn + 1st pick or Carle, schenn and 1st pick.... Whatever, Id do it.
If you can replace Pronger with Pronger junior(at 24!), you do whatever it takes to make it happen. I think people dont realise how ****ing good Weber is, and good is under selling the guy big time.
How many young Norris front runners get traded for anything less than ridiculous returns when they still have another RFA year.
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick
On NHL network they said Suter and Weber wouldn't be traded until the deadline, and they won't be traded if Nashville is in the playoffs.
well if they're movable if NSH isn't in the playoffs, does that technically mean that NSH still needs NHL ready players for this trade to work? Especially if it's that late into the season...I'd say their value drops as upcoming U/RFAs.
Ultimately it's up to them, but if they're gonna wait until then, we might be able to get away with a better trade for us. Guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it
Listen, count the number of teams over the last 25 years who have wona Cup without having at least one superstar DMan in their lineup. I can only think of a few, perhaps TB and Carolina.... Even the Bruins last year were a rarity cuz they had only one bona fide DMan superstar Chara (Kaberle underperformed, Sedidenberg is no superstar, and who the heck is Johny Boychuk)...
Yeah, to have a good shot at a Cup you need at least two superstar Dmen. At the moment we have one, who is old and perhaps a year away from retirement.
Few teams win Cups with a whole bunch of 'good Dmen'.. they win with a pair iof superstars, another pair of good Dmen of the same caliber as Coburn and Mesz, and another bottom pairing who hardly play any minutes at all.
That's the formula on defense folks. Two superstars, two good Dmen, and two nobodies.
Right now we have one elderly superstar (Timo) and three good Dmen (Coburn, Mesz, and possibly Carle). Shortly we nay be down to zero superstars, plus the latter three mentionned.
Wrong formula, guys.
I hate when people trot out the "heres the formula for winning a championship" thing, like winning championship in any sport is as easy as solving math problem. There are tons of different ways to put together a team capable of winning a cup.
Remember 2 years ago when it was Flyers (Leighton) Hawks (Niemi) in the finals, and people were saying "in the new nhl, you don't need good goalies to win. Better to spend money on depth. Thats the way to win a cup now."
Remember last year, when it was Bruins (Thomas) Nucks (Luongo) and people said "see you NEED to have a good goalie to win a cup."
BTW, you must have a pretty loose definition of "superstar" because in the cup era, I'm struggling to see any team other than the 2007 Ducks that had 2 superstar defenseman. Detroit had 1, the Hawks had 1, the Bruins had 1, the Pens and the Canes didn't have any. Soo, a lot of of these cup winners seem to be defying this magical formula.
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick
Exactly. The people who are offering only one of JVR/Schenn/Couturier to go along with Carle/Meszaros/Coburn and a first round pick are not being honest nor realistic. It's going to take two young forwards, minimum, in any deal to pry Weber away from Nashville.
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick
for
Weber
Halischuck
I didn't even see JVR at first, and was already "**** no".
I didn't even see JVR at first, and was already "**** no".
The fact that all three of you think it's too much means the value is probably close to fair. Face it, Shea Weber is the best defenseman in the entire league, still only 26, logs 26+ minutes per game, and is a RFA after the season (not a UFA, which drives up the price even more). He's a FRANCHISE defenseman, and that's not easy to find. You gotta give to get, and, honestly, if I'm Homer and Poile is satisfied with an offer of JVR, Schenn/Couturier (preferably Schenn, of course), Carle/Meszaros, a 2012 1st round pick, and a 2013 second round pick, I'm not only accepting the deal without so much as a second thought, but I'm also laughing all the way to the bank.
I don't think JVR is going to develop into the force we're all hoping he can be (I just don't see enough nastiness or assertiveness in his game on a consistent basis, nor do I see the elite level puck skills that he possessed at lower levels), and Schenn/Couturier, for all their promise, are still just prospects. Naturally, if neither Carle or Meszaros had to be included, that'd be ideal... but I'm sure Nashville will want a top-4 defenseman back in the deal (and seeing as how Carle's slated to be a UFA, Poile would probably ask for Mez). No matter what, a first round pick is going to be involved, and there's the possibility that we have two second round picks in 2012 or 2013 (one coming from Florida via the Versteeg trade), so one of them is expendable.
The fact that all three of you think it's too much means the value is probably close to fair. Face it, Shea Weber is the best defenseman in the entire league, still only 26, logs 26+ minutes per game, and is a RFA after the season (not a UFA, which drives up the price even more). He's a FRANCHISE defenseman, and that's not easy to find. You gotta give to get, and, honestly, if I'm Homer and Poile is satisfied with an offer of JVR, Schenn/Couturier (preferably Schenn, of course), Carle/Meszaros, a 2012 1st round pick, and a 2013 second round pick, I'm not only accepting the deal without so much as a second thought, but I'm also laughing all the way to the bank.
I don't think JVR is going to develop into the force we're all hoping he can be (I just don't see enough nastiness or assertiveness in his game on a consistent basis, nor do I see the elite level puck skills that he possessed at lower levels), and Schenn/Couturier, for all their promise, are still just prospects. Naturally, if neither Carle or Meszaros had to be included, that'd be ideal... but I'm sure Nashville will want a top-4 defenseman back in the deal (and seeing as how Carle's slated to be a UFA, Poile would probably ask for Mez). No matter what, a first round pick is going to be involved, and there's the possibility that we have two second round picks in 2012 or 2013 (one coming from Florida via the Versteeg trade), so one of them is expendable.
Why trade all that for him when you can get him for 2 1sts a 2nd and a 3rd in the summer?
Or when you can get Ryan Suter for free?
It's a ridiculous overpayment and there's no chance Homer makes that deal.
Shea Weber is great. But he isn't worth Richards + Carter, and that's what you're asking us to give up. Value equivalent to those 2... for an elite defenseman that is only your guaranteed property for this year and next... and a guy who is looking to set the record for biggest contract ever given to a defenseman.
No thanks.
It's not worth it.
I don't want to kill my forward depth for a luxury #1 defenseman.
Why trade all that for him when you can get him for 2 1sts a 2nd and a 3rd in the summer?
Or when you can get Ryan Suter for free?
It's a ridiculous overpayment and there's no chance Homer makes that deal.
Shea Weber is great. But he isn't worth Richards + Carter, and that's what you're asking us to give up. Value equivalent to those 2... for an elite defenseman that is only your guaranteed property for this year and next... and a guy who is looking to set the record for biggest contract ever given to a defenseman.
No thanks.
It's not worth it.
I don't want to kill my forward depth for a luxury #1 defenseman.
Personally I'd make that move.
JVR, Schenn, Mesz and at least a 1st for an elite D, considering Prongers situation is looking bad and Timonen is UFA after next season I'd make it. Might be an overpayment but it starts solving some problems down the road. We wouldn't trade for Weber without knowing he would sign a deal so I don't see that as a risk.
Hypothetically:
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) - Claude Giroux ($3.750m) - Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) - Daniel Briere ($6.500m) - Jakub Voracek ($2.250m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) - Sean Couturier ($1.375m) - Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) - Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) - Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Matt Carle ($4.500m) - Shea Weber ($7.500m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) - Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) - Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,228,373; BONUSES: $1,300,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $71,627
You still need one more forward but there are options, get rid of Bob for a cheap backup? Save $1m... Dump Shelly gives you another $1.1m to play with
Right now Schenn has not been needed, and Simmonds is only a little worse than JVR with worse support... Losing Mesz would probably be necessary so resign Carle... And all that’s Pronger plays next year. If not it becomes easier. Then the year after you free up another $6.333m of cap... Seems to make sense to me long term.
Yea, but your leaving out couterier, carle, and a 2nd round pick. and your shortchanging us halischuck. how dare you
JVR
Schenn/Couturier
Carle/Meszaros
2012 first round pick
2013 second round pick
I took that to mean Schenn or Couturier and Carle or Meszaros, I wouldn't trade away 5 players for 1 and no one would take 5 for 1, the cap they would take would be massive... About $18 if Carle resigned... TBH I didn't even know who Halischuk was... I don't consider that part vital
This whole thread is "what the?" People act like the NHL is a wasteland of goodies for us to pick and choose from like vultures because we're a superior team. Nashville aint givin up the goods that easy. Those 3 are all the got. Besides with all this uncertainty (discussed at vomitess levels on this forum) about these concussions we could go and give up key members of what is an insanely promising and potent roster for players we might not need. If Pronger comes back by playoffs and we gave up some two way depth up front or also on the back end and gave up some key picks it would just stall us more. At this point were winning and the best bet is to wait and see. Also i'd rather have Suter.
This whole thread is "what the?" People act like the NHL is a wasteland of goodies for us to pick and choose from like vultures because we're a superior team. Nashville aint givin up the goods that easy. Those 3 are all the got. Besides with all this uncertainty (discussed at vomitess levels on this forum) about these concussions we could go and give up key members of what is an insanely promising and potent roster for players we might not need. If Pronger comes back by playoffs and we gave up some two way depth up front or also on the back end and gave up some key picks it would just stall us more. At this point were winning and the best bet is to wait and see. Also i'd rather have Suter.
Pronger isn't coming back this season... And if we didn't talk about what we'd like to see happen (and what we think is plausable) the forum would be be pretty sparse... As for Nashville not giving up a player because they only have those 3, if they lost one and gained 3 quality players (hypothetically say JVR, Schenn and Mesz) does that not make them a better team? I'd say it did but I guess thats what trades are all about, each team getting better from their perspective.
