HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Hockey Fights
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Hockey Fights Discuss and rate hockey fights and fighters of today and from the past. Videos welcome!

Study suggests canadians would support fighting ban

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-17-2011, 12:35 PM
  #101
Donny Bomby
Dinger Derby
 
Donny Bomby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Quick question for everyone. When's the last time a hit to the head broke somebody's helmet?

Here's a couple.

You can't see it clearly, but Brashear has mentioned that when Kocur knocked off his helmet in this fight, it not only knocked off his helmet but he could feel the hit on the other side of his face.

Anyone care to show me a headshot where the helmet is broken? Or even a reference to it?

Donny Bomby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 12:48 PM
  #102
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
See here's the thing: This isn't about what the fans want. It's about facts. It's about scientific evidence.
Zil - I respect your well-presented point of view. And, clearly it deserves - and is undoubtedly getting - strong consideration by the NHL. Personally, I have watched, played and coached hockey for decades, so I am well aware of the many salient points you raise. I am proudly not the knee-jerk reactionary (common among some) who feels a need to make changes to the game every week; I admittedly endorse taking a conservative, methodical approach to any modifications to the game. However, at this point, I will concede serious concern for the alarming trend of players incurring head injuries. So, while I'm not ready to say ban fighting, it should be further explored. (I will also suggest that while you build a good case for eliminating fighting, for the sake of a complete analysis, the potential consequences of doing so must also be explored.)

Bottom line: those who say that fighting should be banned - at least those who back it up with substance, such as yourself - raise serious points.

My comments were strictly directed toward the couple of misguided posters who apparently see fans (and fan polls) as the arbiters of how the NHL game should be played and officiated. So when you write "This isn't about what the fans want," we are in total agreement. Their preferences are a consideration; it is neither the sole, nor hardly the primary, factor.


Last edited by Trottier: 12-17-2011 at 12:57 PM.
Trottier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 12:50 PM
  #103
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 6,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Feel free to skip this if you don't care about why 1,160 is a reasonable sample size.

The question we want to ask is "Do Canadians want fighting out of hockey?"

We will test that

A: 50% or less of Canadians want fighting out of hockey.
vs
B: More than 50% of Canadians want fighting out of hockey.

Now, we got something like 696 yes out of 1160 questioned. How likely is that if A is true?

Well, the expected number of yes votes if it was 50/50 is 1160 (.5) = 580. So we have an excess of 116 yes votes? How likely is that?

In a simple yes/no question, the variance is simple: n*p*(1-p) = 290. This makes the standard deviation 17.02.

This means that we are 116/17.02 = 6.8 standard deviations above the expected. This is incredibly unlikely. Something like 1 in 200,000,000 polls taken in a population that was 50/50 or less would come up with this result.


Based on this, there are two choices:

1) The poll was flawed -- either a non-random sample or a bad question.
2) The majority of Canadian hockey fans want fighting banned.


To me, 1 appears unlikely given that Forum Research appears to be a well-established polling firm, but without the details about how it was sampled and what the wording of the question was, we don't know.

Polls are notoriously easy to manipulate, does anyone believe any poll regarding issues related to sexual practices, or worse, how many alcoholic beverages do you consume per week ? People will often provide the answer that they think portrays them in the best light.

But now we can go to an actual game and see what happens to the people who spend their own disposable incomes ( often significant sums) on the games. People don't run TO the consessions when guys drop the gloves. Is some of this related to vampirism ? I am absolutely sure that it is. But hockey, unlike any other sport, allows guys to drop them and throw.

I suspect that a lot of the people who voted against fighting did so on the basis of the concept of fighting. In a perfect world it would be great if we could ban the fights, but banning the fights will likely have unintended consequences that the people opposed to the concept of fighting simply fail to consider ( or don't care). If these people will never pay to put their butts in a seat, then the NHL should tell them that they appreciate their opposition but they have a responsibility to the people who ACTUALLY and FISCALLY support the game.

I think that instead of debating whether fights should be banned, it is more informative to talk about who should shape this debate. The people who don't give a rats ass about the league and think that they have specific knowledge of what is best for the game that escapes the people who actually make their living off of it, or the people who would have to deal with the consequences of banning pugilism.

In this respect, it doesn't even matter whether the concept of fighting acting as a deterrent is true or not. as long as the people facing the consequences beleive it, that is all that matters.

If the players decided that fighting should be tossed, I'm great with that. But if you are waiting for this to happen, in the absence of som paradigm shifting event, you might want to pull up a chair.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 01:28 PM
  #104
newfy
Registered User
 
newfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Which is really irrelevant. Hockey players in the 70's preferred playing without helmets.
Yeah and because they werent in full body armour back than, they had way less injuries, high sticks etc.

But anyways, once there is any form of legitimate evidence saying fighting is actually that bad for the players, I may change my stance on it until than.


Taking a guy like Bob Probert who was drinking twelve beers a night by the age of 17 and snorting amounts of coke that would kill an average man and saying "Oh he fought and his brain was messed up after he died" isnt evidence for me. There are other factors at play.

I also wonder with the suicides if its because of things that happened in players pasts. And these dark things in their past is what made them take up a rougher and more aggressive style of play to take out some emotion.

Proberts dad used to beat him. The whole Graham James stuff with Theo Fleury made him an angry person and a drunk and a drug addict. Fleury took up this substance abuse for reasons other than head trauma from fighting.

Rypien I do not know the past of, but I know he had struggled with depression for 2 years after his nephew died.. Is that depression caused by getting hit in the head? I doubt it, especially because he is so young and hadnt racked up a career of fights, especially against big time power punchers.

So can all you people who say fighting needs to leave the game explain to me how not having fighting in the game would have stopped things like Rypiens nephew dying, Probert doing Cocaine as a teen etc

Seems like everyone wants to jump all over these instances as an excuse to push an agenda to me personally.

newfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 01:34 PM
  #105
Kagee*
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,093
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Quote:
nationwide Forum Research survey.
Obviously a ton of non hockey fans were polled.

Quote:
Some of the firmís research tools include small- and large-scale telephone, interactive telephone, and online polling, focus groups, one-on-one interviews, as well as mail, door-to-door, intercept and personal surveys.

Kagee* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 02:48 PM
  #106
VanJaysFan*
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
ya think? you think that fans in saskatoon or sioux falls or indianapolis are of no value to the nhl? i'd venture there are three or four times more nhl fans that are outside of nhl markets than in. those are the tv customers. tv is where the money comes from.
Yeah, that sweet TV contract with Versus is like printing money.



The NHL is a gate-driven league. This isn't football.

VanJaysFan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 04:49 PM
  #107
The Gourmet
Potage Le Magnifique
 
The Gourmet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Poland
Posts: 3,977
vCash: 500
Reading through this thread and seeing every post who's main argument is that the sample size was too small makes me

The Gourmet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 04:55 PM
  #108
SaxMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EroticBakery View Post
Reading through this thread and seeing every post who's main argument is that the sample size was too small makes me
I guess they don't teach stats in the Canadian high schools.

SaxMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 04:55 PM
  #109
BamBamCam*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle/Boston
Country: Ireland
Posts: 1,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
Canadians and Americans are different. That's just reality. It's the same reason they didn't poll people in Russia or Czech Republic.
We are? Because I go back and forth between countries quite a bit and actually we are fairly close. Some differences but anyone thinking they are more Euro than North American is high.

BamBamCam* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 05:01 PM
  #110
The Gourmet
Potage Le Magnifique
 
The Gourmet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Poland
Posts: 3,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
We are? Because I go back and forth between countries quite a bit and actually we are fairly close. Some differences but anyone thinking they are more Euro than North American is high.
In terms of hockey knowledge there is a huge difference.

The Gourmet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 05:08 PM
  #111
Kimota
Three Bananas
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 22,964
vCash: 500
This is what, the 5th study of this sort in a couple of months? Seems like the guys doing the polls have an agenda. Of course the press and the nerds reporters are always supporting these results.

Ban fighting in hockey, next will be all types of physical plays such as hitting(it's coming folks!) and then Europeans will be able to rule the Olympics at hockey.

You ban fighting and the type of physical hockey that we enjoy, might as well end Canada. Canada is too dangerous for the World at large.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 05:09 PM
  #112
BamBamCam*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle/Boston
Country: Ireland
Posts: 1,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EroticBakery View Post
In terms of hockey knowledge there is a huge difference.
Well, I must be more Canadian than American. That is possible, I did and still do to some degree hang with alot of you Canuckians.

Not sure that's true either though. If I was from Arizona or Florida, I would agree but I am not, I an from an O6 city and I remember quite clearly how the game was played.

BamBamCam* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 05:23 PM
  #113
The Gourmet
Potage Le Magnifique
 
The Gourmet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Poland
Posts: 3,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Well, I must be more Canadian than American. That is possible, I did and still do to some degree hang with alot of you Canuckians.

Not sure that's true either though. If I was from Arizona or Florida, I would agree but I am not, I an from an O6 city and I remember quite clearly how the game was played.
Most of the griping in this thread relates to the fact that we don't know if the people who were polled were hockey fans or not. You can't argue that if a poll surveys only the average citizen, and not people who label themselves as hockey fans, then it would make more sense to poll Canadians rather than Americans. The odds of a Canadian having some basic hockey knowledge is higher than that of an American.

The Gourmet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 05:29 PM
  #114
dirk41
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekernel View Post
fighting isn't really for the spectacle. it's so two guys can vent frustration or find an avenue of retribution that isn't dangerous.
I don't know which premise is funnier: guys must vent their frustration through fight or fighting isn't dangerous.

dirk41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 05:35 PM
  #115
dirk41
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
This is what, the 5th study of this sort in a couple of months? Seems like the guys doing the polls have an agenda. Of course the press and the nerds reporters are always supporting these results.
I don't like the result of this polls or others like it so I'm going to make a baseless accusation.

Agenda: Conduct polls about subjects people are really interested in to gain recognition and funding.
\
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Ban fighting in hockey, next will be all types of physical plays such as hitting(it's coming folks!) and then Europeans will be able to rule the Olympics at hockey.
I find your slippery-slope fallacy compelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
You ban fighting and the type of physical hockey that we enjoy, might as well end Canada. Canada is too dangerous for the World at large.
I find your hysteria compelling.

dirk41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 06:00 PM
  #116
canadianwingnut
Registered User
 
canadianwingnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Brockville, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,745
vCash: 500
What the **** does the Canadian public know? Gimme a break. Let's ban street lights and stop signs too, Canada!

canadianwingnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 08:09 PM
  #117
tacogeoff
Registered User
 
tacogeoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Killarney, MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,907
vCash: 460
We need to accomidate for injuries. I think we all agree on the following points.
1. we need to remove fighting.
2. we need to remove body contact and checking
3. we need to remove slapshots from the game.
4. Any wrist or snap shot above the waist is an automatic penalty.
5. 3 steambouts before heading to the net on a scramble so the goalie can ready himself.
6. Players must walk on pavement on the way onto the ice surface to dull their blades.

I think if we lobby to impliment these changes the league will be better overall with the players being protected thus saving the game!

tacogeoff is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 08:29 PM
  #118
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,839
vCash: 500
All the current concussions of star players were not caused by fighting. Why don't we get better helmets?

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 08:37 PM
  #119
kingsholygrail
You Face Jaraxxus!
 
kingsholygrail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Derpifornia
Country: United States
Posts: 51,321
vCash: 500
Fighting isn't allowed. It's a 5:00 penalty.

kingsholygrail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 08:38 PM
  #120
CommanderShepard15
Eberle=Clutch
 
CommanderShepard15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,464
vCash: 500
comeon now. how fast can players skate? how hard are punches thrown?

all i know is when a guy is virtually standing still, and so are you, the contact made with your head is alot less damaging then when two players going the fastest they can collide and 200 ibs + equipment hits you in the head.

high school level physics

CommanderShepard15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 09:50 PM
  #121
CamFan81
HF Snob Agitator
 
CamFan81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 18,271
vCash: 500
To the thread tite : I wonder why lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
I see fighting out of hockey totally in 5-10 years.

I'm Canadian, and I've played the game.
If this is true. hockey will be a pathetic pathetic sport.

CamFan81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 10:08 PM
  #122
Tavaresmagicalplay*
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamFan81 View Post
If this is true. hockey will be a pathetic pathetic sport.
I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you spew garbage like this.

Tavaresmagicalplay* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 10:37 PM
  #123
hatterson
Global Moderator
 
hatterson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,500
vCash: 50
Send a message via Skype™ to hatterson
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Feel free to skip this if you don't care about why 1,160 is a reasonable sample size.

The question we want to ask is "Do Canadians want fighting out of hockey?"

We will test that

A: 50% or less of Canadians want fighting out of hockey.
vs
B: More than 50% of Canadians want fighting out of hockey.

Now, we got something like 696 yes out of 1160 questioned. How likely is that if A is true?

Well, the expected number of yes votes if it was 50/50 is 1160 (.5) = 580. So we have an excess of 116 yes votes? How likely is that?

In a simple yes/no question, the variance is simple: n*p*(1-p) = 290. This makes the standard deviation 17.02.

This means that we are 116/17.02 = 6.8 standard deviations above the expected. This is incredibly unlikely. Something like 1 in 200,000,000 polls taken in a population that was 50/50 or less would come up with this result.


Based on this, there are two choices:

1) The poll was flawed -- either a non-random sample or a bad question.
2) The majority of Canadian hockey fans want fighting banned.



To me, 1 appears unlikely given that Forum Research appears to be a well-established polling firm, but without the details about how it was sampled and what the wording of the question was, we don't know.
There is a very significant range of options based on how the questions were asked and what specific questions were asked. Lets pretend the survey is a 1 question survey, with a yes/no answer. THere are many options on how to phrase the question.

A.) "If the NHL banned fighting would you still support the league?"
B.) "Do you believe that all fighting should be banned from the NHL?"
C.) "Would you support the league in banning fighting?"
D.) "Do you believe that staged fighting should be banned from the NHL?"
E.) "If the NHL banned fighting would you completely give up watching the sport?"

And a whole host of others. All of these will have a different percentage of yes/no. Look at questions A, C, and E. They are very similar and yet actually ask very different things and thus a blanket statement of "x% of people support the NHL banning fighting" doesn't mean a lot unless the actual questions asked are presented.


Now, I'm not debating the validity of the poll or it's results. I have done no research on my own and all my knowledge is anecdotal, so I am not in a place to call into question the validity of the conclusion. However, what I can do is warn people that there can be far more to the story that initial meets the eye.

__________________
Come join us on the By The Numbers forum. Take a look at our introduction post if you're new. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
hatterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-17-2011, 10:45 PM
  #124
CamFan81
HF Snob Agitator
 
CamFan81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 18,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavaresmagicalplay View Post
I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you spew garbage like this.
please.
Players running around cheapshotting, yapping, taking runs at guys when they're getting their arse kicked on the scoreboard...
Thats all getting worse because they don't have to be held accountable.
Theres no suspensions for Avery for being a total **** on the ice, theres no suspensions for guys like Downie that blow kisses in your face during a scrum. Its embarrasing for hockey to have guys like these running around. Add that type of player plus the Cooke type of player thats ending careers on the ice and walks away unscathed.

All this has gotten worse and it has to do with the instigator, imagine if you get fighting out of hockey all together? I'm spewing garbage? If you consider the truth, garbage...Then yes, yes i am

CamFan81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-18-2011, 02:54 AM
  #125
Tavaresmagicalplay*
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoncheeZ View Post
A study I did determined water has a high viscosity so it must be true right?
What........in........the.......blue hell are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamFan81 View Post
please.
Players running around cheapshotting, yapping, taking runs at guys when they're getting their arse kicked on the scoreboard...
Thats all getting worse because they don't have to be held accountable.
Theres no suspensions for Avery for being a total **** on the ice, theres no suspensions for guys like Downie that blow kisses in your face during a scrum. Its embarrasing for hockey to have guys like these running around. Add that type of player plus the Cooke type of player thats ending careers on the ice and walks away unscathed.

All this has gotten worse and it has to do with the instigator, imagine if you get fighting out of hockey all together? I'm spewing garbage? If you consider the truth, garbage...Then yes, yes i am
You think removing the instigator would stop incidents like that? Get real. Chirping has been around since the beginning of time fighting or no.

Tavaresmagicalplay* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.