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Survey: Canadians would support ban on fighting

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Old
12-17-2011, 12:24 AM
  #1
LadyStanley
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Survey: Canadians would support ban on fighting

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=382923

Quote:
60% of Canadians, aged 18 years or older, that watch and follow the sport agree that fighting should be banned from professional hockey, according to a recent nationwide Forum Research survey.
...
The study found that females were significantly more likely to support a fighting ban than males (74% to 46%) while older Canadians were also more likely to support a ban (86% for age 65 and up, 73% for ages 55-64, 64% for ages 45-54, 55% for ages 35-44, and 40% for ages 18-34.)

Fans in Quebec had the highest support for the fighting ban (67%), followed by fans in Ontario (61%), the Atlantic region (57%), BC (55%), and the Prairies (51%).

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12-17-2011, 12:25 AM
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I would also support a ban on hitting in hockey.

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12-17-2011, 12:33 AM
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KevFu
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This always bugs me about this topic: Fighting IS BANNED in hockey. It's just a matter of how severe the punishment is.

You're not allowed to fight, just like you're not allowed to holding, hook, slash, board, interfere, cross-check, close your hand on the puck, throw your stick, or delay the game.

Should they make fighting MORE than a 5-minute major? That's the question.

I don't think they should make it an automatic one-game suspension or anything like that, but they could make fighting an ejection for the game, sure.

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12-17-2011, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
This always bugs me about this topic: Fighting IS BANNED in hockey. It's just a matter of how severe the punishment is.
Depends on your definition of "Banned" is.

The definition most would go by is severe discipline to those who fight. A penalty is not severe punishment. It would have to mean a suspension and possibly a fine - much like how steroids is banned in baseball.

20 years ago I had no problems with fighting in the game and only wanted them to get rid of goons. I hated seeing players who took up a roster spot only to fight - that was/is terrible for the game.

Today, my thoughts have changed - I say they should just get rid of fighting altogether.

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12-17-2011, 03:16 AM
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I'd like to see what the wording of the survey said, as the devil's sometimes in the details.

On top of that, these lines always get me:

Quote:
"With the recent deaths of NHL enforcers and retired players—along with marquee names such as Sidney Crosby being sidelined due to head injuries—people are starting to question the role of fighting in the game. With the NHL making it clear they won't even consider a ban at this time, it will be interesting to see how this situation develops in the months and years to come."
Yeah, because putting a more stringent ban on fighting would've prevented Crosby's concussion....

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12-17-2011, 04:02 AM
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the only 'survey' you need is the sound of the crowd during a fight. Do you hear 'boos' or 'cheers'?

That's what I thought.

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12-17-2011, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by IME View Post
the only 'survey' you need is the sound of the crowd during a fight. Do you hear 'boos' or 'cheers'?

That's what I thought.
Exactly some of us would love having more fights in the SEL. There are some things in hockey no one should mess with because they are part of the tradition, the crowd loves it and on top of that are good for the well being of rookies, star players fighting is one of these.

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12-17-2011, 09:47 AM
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This thread should be accompanied by a POLL for hf members to vote on the issue no?. Simple question...

Do you support a total Ban on Fighting?
Do you agree with the existing rules & penalties?
Would you like to see the Instigator Rule rescinded?

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Old
12-17-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
This always bugs me about this topic: Fighting IS BANNED in hockey. It's just a matter of how severe the punishment is.

You're not allowed to fight, just like you're not allowed to holding, hook, slash, board, interfere, cross-check, close your hand on the puck, throw your stick, or delay the game.

Should they make fighting MORE than a 5-minute major? That's the question.

I don't think they should make it an automatic one-game suspension or anything like that, but they could make fighting an ejection for the game, sure.
LOL... exactly! It's not a matter of "banning" fighting because it's certainly not permitted in any way now. It's a matter of making the punishment more severe (or not) with the objective of reducing the incidence of it further.

I personally would support a further reduction of fighting, but not to have the punishment be so severe that players play with the thought in the back of their minds... I need to maintain my cool... Fights that break out instantaniously without thought, I think are a natural element of such a high-intensity sport. But any fight that can be seen as started with intention, those are the ones that can be punished further.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-18-2011 at 08:57 PM. Reason: typo
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Old
12-17-2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
the only 'survey' you need is the sound of the crowd during a fight. Do you hear 'boos' or 'cheers'?

That's what I thought.
That's just it though, why does everyone seem to actually enjoy watching the fights and yet polls like this claim that a large minority do not.

"Hey are you a Hockey fan?"
"Yeah, I guess, it's a good sport."
"Should they ban fighting in the NHL"
"Oh yeah, sure."

Compare that to when two players drop the gloves in a game and 19,000 people stand up and cheer.

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12-17-2011, 05:03 PM
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Go to a game and ask the guys around you if fighting should be banned.

I'm done reading articles about all this crap. The media has to ALWAYS be *****ing about something. First it was blindside hits, they got that removed. Next was headshots, got the rule change. Now its fighting. Next will be open ice checking. Then it will be hitting altogether. Newsflash: they don't care about hockey. Most of them probably only watch an occasional playoff game and call themselves fans. If they were watching, they'd know Crosby and Giroux both suffered from freak accidents that no rule change could have prevented.

The only thing they care about is page views, page views, and guess what else? PAGE VIEWS. Stop reading their ********.

Shut the fudge up already and appreciate the game. /rant

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12-17-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
That's just it though, why does everyone seem to actually enjoy watching the fights and yet polls like this claim that a large minority do not.

"Hey are you a Hockey fan?"
"Yeah, I guess, it's a good sport."
"Should they ban fighting in the NHL"
"Oh yeah, sure."

Compare that to when two players drop the gloves in a game and 19,000 people stand up and cheer.
19,000 don't though. Maybe 12-13K do. Another 3-4K are talking on their cell phones and wish that the damn people would quiet down, and another 2-3K are wondering when the hockey will start again.

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Old
12-17-2011, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
This always bugs me about this topic: Fighting IS BANNED in hockey. It's just a matter of how severe the punishment is.

You're not allowed to fight, just like you're not allowed to holding, hook, slash, board, interfere, cross-check, close your hand on the puck, throw your stick, or delay the game.

Should they make fighting MORE than a 5-minute major? That's the question.

I don't think they should make it an automatic one-game suspension or anything like that, but they could make fighting an ejection for the game, sure.
That's interesting, has any NHL player ever been suspended because of fighting? For example, if you hit opponent with elbow, lights out, concussion, you will be suspended, whatever for 5-10 games. You fight, you hit opponent, lights out, concussion, no suspension (like what Asham did recently).

JOL

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12-18-2011, 06:13 PM
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I think fighting is "necessary" for hockey where it's not for the other sports with stiffer penalties for it.

In baseball, the "policing" of dirty players is the pitcher hits them with the ball. They crack down on throwing at people's heads and fighting,
because it's the worst thing that can happen.

In football, there really is no policing. Fighting is stupid because everyone is wearing helmets. Helmet-to-Helmet hits are the worst things that can happen, and they're cracking down on those.

In basketball, it's flagrant fouls and fighting that are suspension worthy.

In hockey, two guys fighting with their fists is NOT the most dangerous thing that can happen. You've got everyone on the ice with sticks. Swinging a stick at someone's head is far worse than two guys dropping the gloves.

THAT'S the NHL's issue with stepping up bans. If you remove the "Drop the gloves" culture from hockey, the big fear is that when guys reach their boiling point and snap, they use their stick instead of their fists.

Reducing fighting and dispensing fair justice to reduce it is difficult, because it's not "FIGHTING" that needs to be reduced/eliminated. It's WORTHLESS fighting. It's "well, we're down 4-0, and have been playing like crap, so let's fight to spark the team" fights that really shouldn't have a place in the game. Those fights just put concussions on enforcers.

The "you just concussed our star player with a dirty hit, so now you've gotta answer for it" is the policing part of hockey that has a legitimate place in the sport for the welfare of everyone.

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12-18-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
THAT'S the NHL's issue with stepping up bans. If you remove the "Drop the gloves" culture from hockey, the big fear is that when guys reach their boiling point and snap, they use their stick instead of their fists.
How often is that the cause of fighting in hockey? I would say it's rarely about players reaching a boiling point and usually calculated and pre-planned, our goon vs. your goon (I apologize in advance if I'm missing your point).

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12-18-2011, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jol View Post
That's interesting, has any NHL player ever been suspended because of fighting? For example, if you hit opponent with elbow, lights out, concussion, you will be suspended, whatever for 5-10 games. You fight, you hit opponent, lights out, concussion, no suspension (like what Asham did recently).

JOL
The difference there is that in a fight, the act of dropping the gloves is almost like signing a waiver. During play, the expectation level is that players aren't going to deliver cheap-shot blows attempting to injure. In a fight, the expectation is "both people are punching each other in the face and head."


I think the NHL needs to get a panel of former players, enforcers, dirty players, referees, league officials, and head and brain doctors and try to figure something out. Their goal needs to be:

1 - Reduce fighting, while maintaining a "players police dirty play" culture.
2 - Reduce non-responsive fighting (aka - "fire up the team" fights)
3 - Reduce the physical effects of fighting on enforcers via equipment/rule changes.

Some soccer players wear those concussion bands on their heads, designed to limit the effects of heading a soccer ball after they've sustained a concussion. Maybe a helmet redesign where all the players wear those bands and the helmet fits around them. That would provide more concussion protection during play, AND during fights.

Likewise, something for players to wear under their gloves that pads the knuckles. Boxers have brain trauma from going 24 rounds a year, while hockey players are fighting bare-knuckles. That's insane.


But just making a fight an automatic ejection/suspension isn't going to make the game safer for the rest of hockey. It will probably lead to MORE dirty play, because you can't send someone out there to make it stop. Getting punched in the face is a pretty solid deterrent.

Also, if I'm a less talented team, I'm going to try and get a more talented player to fight my enforcer and get him out of the rest of the game.


Just think about it if fighting is an automatic ejection and a one-game suspension:

Dale Hunter delivers a cheap shot, and the Islanders go into the next game without:
Benoit Hogue (fighting), Derek King (fighting), Dennis Vaske (fighting), Rich Pilon (fighting) and Pierre Turgeon (injured).
Five Capitals sit out the season opener, including Dale Hunter, who'd have 20 games on his suspension left.

You're penalizing the team that got cheap-shotted. Their only recourse is to DO NOTHING and then cheap shot someone the next time they meet? That's going to lead to far more incidents than if someone just jumps the dirty player and punches him in the face.

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12-18-2011, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
In football, there really is no policing. Fighting is stupid because everyone is wearing helmets.
You can easily take the helmet off before fighting. Many hockey players do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
In hockey, two guys fighting with their fists is NOT the most dangerous thing that can happen. You've got everyone on the ice with sticks. Swinging a stick at someone's head is far worse than two guys dropping the gloves.
I used to think that way in the past - kill fighting and stick incidents will go up. But it's really just nonsense. Football is a violent sport, yet they don't allow fighting to reduce the cheap hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
THAT'S the NHL's issue with stepping up bans. If you remove the "Drop the gloves" culture from hockey, the big fear is that when guys reach their boiling point and snap, they use their stick instead of their fists.
If players purposely use their sticks with intent to injure, then you punish them severely - ie, 30 games suspension (or the whole season) without pay. You want to deter players from doing stupid things - then you take away their source of income.

Fighting is NOT necessary in hockey and should be banned altogether.

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12-18-2011, 06:48 PM
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How often is that the cause of fighting in hockey? I would say it's rarely about players reaching a boiling point and usually calculated and pre-planned, our goon vs. your goon (I apologize in advance if I'm missing your point).
The goon vs goon fights are what the NHL needs to drastically reduce.

I'm sure someone could go through the fight logs and figure out which are "heat of battle" fights and which are like last night, when PHI-BOS had a number of fights simply because the Flyers were down 4-0 and needed a spark.

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12-18-2011, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by berklon View Post
You can easily take the helmet off before fighting. Many hockey players do it.



I used to think that way in the past - kill fighting and stick incidents will go up. But it's really just nonsense. Football is a violent sport, yet they don't allow fighting to reduce the cheap hits.



If players purposely use their sticks with intent to injure, then you punish them severely - ie, 30 games suspension (or the whole season) without pay. You want to deter players from doing stupid things - then you take away their source of income.

Fighting is NOT necessary in hockey and should be banned altogether.
That's your opinion, and you are in the minority.

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12-18-2011, 06:51 PM
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That's your opinion, and you are in the minority.
This survey shows pretty conclusively that he is not in the minority.

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12-18-2011, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by berklon View Post
I used to think that way in the past - kill fighting and stick incidents will go up. But it's really just nonsense.

If players purposely use their sticks with intent to injure, then you punish them severely - ie, 30 games suspension (or the whole season) without pay. You want to deter players from doing stupid things - then you take away their source of income.

Fighting is NOT necessary in hockey and should be banned altogether.
I think you need to change the culture, not just ban it now in the NHL.

You do that by making it "trickle up."

For example, baseball banned chewing tobacco in the minors about seven years ago. The amount of MLB players chewing and dipping is far lower now, because all the kids who came up in the last seven years are used to not doing it.

You have to take that approach.
NCAA has a fighting ban.
Junior hockey needs to adopt that.
Then AHL/ECHL penalties for fighting need to be ridiculously stiffened.
Then NHL stiffens there penalties for fighting.

And when the next generation of players come up, they're used to not fighting, and it rarely occurs. So it's easy to say "you know what, we're banning it all together"

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Old
12-18-2011, 07:07 PM
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if fighting is reduced, stick attacks are going to rise. the hated instigator penalty lives and stick fighting is dead. stick attacks dont happen.

btw....the next guy that goes marty mcsorley. what do you think the suspension would be?
the suspension for something like that deters any player from doing it. come on

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12-18-2011, 07:08 PM
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berklon,

Like I said, it already is banned. What penalty do you propose is appropriate for fighting?

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12-18-2011, 07:28 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I think you need to change the culture, not just ban it now in the NHL.

You do that by making it "trickle up."

For example, baseball banned chewing tobacco in the minors about seven years ago. The amount of MLB players chewing and dipping is far lower now, because all the kids who came up in the last seven years are used to not doing it.

You have to take that approach.
NCAA has a fighting ban.
Junior hockey needs to adopt that.
Then AHL/ECHL penalties for fighting need to be ridiculously stiffened.
Then NHL stiffens there penalties for fighting.

And when the next generation of players come up, they're used to not fighting, and it rarely occurs. So it's easy to say "you know what, we're banning it all together"
\
If they are going to do it they better do it that way. It wouldnt remove fighting, just lower the amounts.

Also im not buying into that poll at all. I think they messed with it by going to places/people where they would likely vote no (Or mostly females, no offense). If I were to ask hockey fans it would be different.

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12-18-2011, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
if fighting is reduced, stick attacks are going to rise. the hated instigator penalty lives and stick fighting is dead. stick attacks dont happen.

btw....the next guy that goes marty mcsorley. what do you think the suspension would be?
the suspension for something like that deters any player from doing it. come on
We're not just talking about "stick attacks" like McSorely. We're talking about slashes, cross checks, high sticks, etc.

I found this online:
Last season, 24 guys had nine or more "dirty" penalties (dirty meaning: "boarding, charging, checking from behind, clipping, elbowing, kneeing, and roughing" as opposed to penalties from trying to gain an advantage like holding, hooking, interference, etc.).

Half of those 24 are among the league-leaders in fights.

There's two ways of looking at it:
#1 - The dirty guys are getting in fights because the other team sends someone out there to fight them and stop their dirty play.
Or
#2 - The guys who fight in hockey are just dirty players in general.

EITHER WAY, cracking down on fighting raises the amount of dirty play:
#1 - No one's policing these dirty players, they can be even more dirty.
Or
#2 - Without the fighting majors, they're on the ice more to commit more dirty plays.

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