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Jacques Martin FIRED!

View Poll Results: What do you think about the Martin firing?
Right timing (Good riddance) 30 11.76%
Finally (Should have happened sooner) 152 59.61%
Surprised (they didn't wait until later in the season) 48 18.82%
Should have kept him as coach. 25 9.80%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-17-2011, 05:45 PM
  #951
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
You know with all the talks with Martin sticking to his vid, he gave pretty of ice to DD, he gave him that spot on the first line.
It's not the first line -- RDS calls it that but that's just not the way the line is used.

OTOH, Martin's entire system lately was built around making DD and his wingers look good, by getting Pleks and Eller to hang on in tough minutes as much as possible so DD can get tons of offensive zone faceoffs and avoid the opposing first lines. In fact, that's the way the Habs were built really -- Plekanec and his first line slightly outplays opposition first line, Gomez and his second line slightly outplays opposition second line -- or either does roughly even, whatever -- and the Habs' depth results a huge mismatch for their third line built around DD, Eller, or both.

Very hard to pull off when your depth goes away, but it was the plan.

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12-17-2011, 05:45 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
If "winning attitude" is the primary factor for the Habs to make a hiring decision, we're completely, utterly screwed.
No one is suggesting that is the only factor, MathMan, but that sort of thing is very important and cannot be disregarded.

Passion and drive are math. You cannot always be cerebral and logical, because it is not logical. Our logic no matter how refined is always imperfect, but logic itself is merely a definition of universal laws. Those laws exist before your intellect has found a way to express them and define them. Intellect is good, but it is not everything. Someone with passion often obeys those laws without understanding them. While you try to figure out the universe, he actually is driven by it.

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Old
12-17-2011, 05:52 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's not the first line -- RDS calls it that but that's just not the way the line is used.

OTOH, Martin's entire system lately was built around making DD and his wingers look good, by getting Pleks and Eller to hang on in tough minutes as much as possible so DD can get tons of offensive zone faceoffs and avoid the opposing first lines. In fact, that's the way the Habs were built really -- Plekanec and his first line slightly outplays opposition first line, Gomez and his second line slightly outplays opposition second line -- or either does roughly even, whatever -- and the Habs' depth results a huge mismatch for their third line built around DD, Eller, or both.

Very hard to pull off when your depth goes away, but it was the plan.
I wanted to create a thread about this because it's been bugging me a lot.
It's not just RDS calling DD's line the first anymore. I heard it on TSN 990 as well, pretty much every common fan and most analyst covering the habs are saying that too.
I think it's a huge lack of analysis towards the work of Plekanec. The guy gets criticized for not doing anything and I expect crappy journalism from RDS but TSN 990? That was a shocker to me. Plekanec doesn't get the respect he deserves, it's sad.

Also, Eller gets a lot of flack, and we often hear people say there's no improvement. This kid has improved leaps and bounds since his first game with us, I'm actually very impressed. He has the potential of being one of the best two way centers in the NHL.

I guess I'm just frustrated that all these morons have jobs talking about the habs when they do such a poor job at analyzing situations/players.

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Old
12-17-2011, 05:52 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
You know with all the talks with Martin sticking to his vid, he gave pretty of ice to DD, he gave him that spot on the first line.
The sticking with his veterans is a mis-interpretation in my opinion. Martin is very conservative, he sticks with the guys he trusts once they've earned it. You see it in Desharnais, Subban, Eller and Pacioretty, once a young guy shows he can consistently play well (not just have a hot streak) he sticks with them, sometimes giving them very difficult circumstances. Or how Kostitsyn now gets regular work after he started seriously back-checking about mid-way through last season.

And its not just young players. He didn't think much of Cole's powerplay abilities, which is an entirely justified opinion based on his body of work in Carolina, but Cole showed he does well in Montreal's PP so he's a regular. So it isn't so much Martin doesn't like playing youngsters but he's slow to trust. Which is a weakness, but not the weakness that is attributed to him.

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Old
12-17-2011, 05:55 PM
  #955
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The logical person in me wants no part of Roy. However there is another part of me that wants it to happen because of the ensuing hilarity.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:10 PM
  #956
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After the presser following the last loss, I felt he was done. I should have posted that here and would have passed for a genius.

The man was out of answers. His reaction to that girl's question (That DAMN girl...JM will make NIGHTMARES of her....is she cute?) told the whole story. Plus he wasn't as stoic as he normally was. The recent quote about how "we should entertain the fans less" followed by the unfair benching of Emelin probably made Molson cringe. Not what you want to tell a fanbase that already finds you boring.

Noticed how Molson wasn't at the presser? Anyone feels he didn't want to seem to support PG knowing that he might go tabula rasa on the organisation at the end of the year?

I've heard Pierre Maguire + Guy Boucher or Patrick Roy as GM / Coach next year.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:12 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
No one is suggesting that is the only factor, MathMan, but that sort of thing is very important and cannot be disregarded.
I think it's a load of subjective crock. Guys one likes are passionnate, guys one doesn't are not.

And not being expressive behind the bench doesn't imply someone is not passionnate, or is it a requirement of the job.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:14 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Or you could face reality and realize that its been reported in credible media (TSN) that Carolina was offering teams a 2nd rounder to take Kaberle.
Wasn't Derick Brassard going back? He's not precisely nothing.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:20 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I never said they were dumb.

But why go with the option with such a high risk, when there will inevitably be other candidates both much more qualified and with less baggage?
Like who? Would be fun to play that game. 'Cause the guy that will most logically lose his job if things don't go right is.....Alain Vigneault. Any chance he becomes the best man available? Or is he the candidate 'cause he speaks french?

Will Ruff lose his job? Trotz? Babcock? Who else??? I keep asking those questions, times and times again, whether it's who is available now or later and I NEVER get the answer. Just the "best man available". Yet, I can name you 20 NHL coaches right now, and people wouldn't consider them.

Anaheim Ducks Bruce Boudreau
Boston Bruins Claude Julien
Buffalo Sabres Lindy Ruff
Calgary Flames Brent Sutter
Carolina Hurricanes Kirk Muller
Chicago Blackhawks Joel Quenneville
Colorado Avalanche Joe Sacco
Columbus Blue Jackets Scott Arniel
Dallas Stars Glen Gulutzan
Detroit Red Wings Mike Babcock
Edmonton Oilers Tom Renney
Florida Panthers Kevin Dineen
Los Angeles Kings John Stevens
Minnesota Wild Mike Yeo
Nashville Predators Barry Trotz
New Jersey Devils Peter DeBoer
New York Islanders Jack Capuano
New York Rangers John Tortorella
Ottawa Senators Paul MacLean
Philadelphia Flyers Peter Laviolette
Phoenix Coyotes Dave Tippett
Pittsburgh Penguins Dan Bylsma
San Jose Sharks Todd McLellan
St. Louis Blues Ken Hitchcock
Tampa Bay Lightning Guy Boucher
Toronto Maple Leafs Ron Wilson
Vancouver Canucks Alain Vigneault
Washington Capitals Dale Hunter
Winnipeg Jets Claude Noel

So who can be fire and that you'd take as clear best man available. Note that you need BOTH. Can be fire and you want. Like as much as we think the world of Babock, Yeo and such, they are not going to be fired. Possible Trotz could be. Who else?

Personnally, the only guys I like are Julien, Ruff, Babcock, Laviolette, Bylsma, Boucher and Vigneault. Who will be available in that list? Vigneault....who else? Can Ruff be fired? See, as stupid as it sounds, Julien could be fired if they lose in the 1st round. 'Cause you have that tendany to think that Neely and Co wants him out real fast for whatever stupid reasons. Would you take Julien back? Would you take Vigneault? Sorry, but it's not as easy to know who is CLEAR best man and will be available in due time. 'Cause then, even if you go in the AHL.....why wouldn't a guy like Benoit Groulx who used to coach there to not be as good as Gernander, Hynes, or even Torchettii?


Last edited by Whitesnake: 12-17-2011 at 06:39 PM.
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Old
12-17-2011, 06:30 PM
  #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's not the first line -- RDS calls it that but that's just not the way the line is used.

OTOH, Martin's entire system lately was built around making DD and his wingers look good, by getting Pleks and Eller to hang on in tough minutes as much as possible so DD can get tons of offensive zone faceoffs and avoid the opposing first lines. In fact, that's the way the Habs were built really -- Plekanec and his first line slightly outplays opposition first line, Gomez and his second line slightly outplays opposition second line -- or either does roughly even, whatever -- and the Habs' depth results a huge mismatch for their third line built around DD, Eller, or both.

Very hard to pull off when your depth goes away, but it was the plan.
The DD line has had all the biggest assigments. They have them on the ice when it's the most important times. From what i've seen seeing the Habs plays, they are the top line. I'm not saying it's right decision, but that's what i'm seeing.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:37 PM
  #961
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So sad that this happened after we lost our coaching Depth.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:42 PM
  #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
The DD line has had all the biggest assigments. They have them on the ice when it's the most important times. From what i've seen seeing the Habs plays, they are the top line. I'm not saying it's right decision, but that's what i'm seeing.
They have no assignment to shut down any opposition. They are used mostly versus weaker opponents, and given favorable offensive situations. That's not really having the toughest assignments. That's just good coaching, something Martin was never given credit for.


Last edited by Kriss E: 12-17-2011 at 06:58 PM.
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Old
12-17-2011, 06:45 PM
  #963
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Hit the net!!!!!!

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:51 PM
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
The DD line has had all the biggest assigments.
...seriously? You may want to double-check the shift charts. They're not the ones who get the tough assignments, that's Eller and Pleks.

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:56 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Like who? Would be fun to play that game. 'Cause the guy that will most logically lose his job if things don't go right is.....Alain Vigneault. Any chance he becomes the best man available? Or is he the candidate 'cause he speaks french?

Will Ruff lose his job? Trotz? Babcock? Who else??? I keep asking those questions, times and times again, whether it's who is available now or later and I NEVER get the answer. Just the "best man available". Yet, I can name you 20 NHL coaches right now, and people wouldn't consider them.

Anaheim Ducks Bruce Boudreau
Boston Bruins Claude Julien
Buffalo Sabres Lindy Ruff
Calgary Flames Brent Sutter
Carolina Hurricanes Kirk Muller
Chicago Blackhawks Joel Quenneville
Colorado Avalanche Joe Sacco
Columbus Blue Jackets Scott Arniel
Dallas Stars Glen Gulutzan
Detroit Red Wings Mike Babcock
Edmonton Oilers Tom Renney
Florida Panthers Kevin Dineen
Los Angeles Kings John Stevens
Minnesota Wild Mike Yeo
Nashville Predators Barry Trotz
New Jersey Devils Peter DeBoer
New York Islanders Jack Capuano
New York Rangers John Tortorella
Ottawa Senators Paul MacLean
Philadelphia Flyers Peter Laviolette
Phoenix Coyotes Dave Tippett
Pittsburgh Penguins Dan Bylsma
San Jose Sharks Todd McLellan
St. Louis Blues Ken Hitchcock
Tampa Bay Lightning Guy Boucher
Toronto Maple Leafs Ron Wilson
Vancouver Canucks Alain Vigneault
Washington Capitals Dale Hunter
Winnipeg Jets Claude Noel

So who can be fire and that you'd take as clear best man available. Note that you need BOTH. Can be fire and you want. Like as much as we think the world of Babock, Yeo and such, they are not going to be fired. Possible Trotz could be. Who else?

Personnally, the only guys I like are Julien, Ruff, Babcock, Laviolette, Bylsma, Boucher and Vigneault. Who will be available in that list? Vigneault....who else? Can Ruff be fired? See, as stupid as it sounds, Julien could be fired if they lose in the 1st round. 'Cause you have that tendany to think that Neely and Co wants him out real fast for whatever stupid reasons. Would you take Julien back? Would you take Vigneault? Sorry, but it's not as easy to know who is CLEAR best man and will be available in due time. 'Cause then, even if you go in the AHL.....why wouldn't a guy like Benoit Groulx who used to coach there to not be as good as Gernander, Hynes, or even Torchettii?
I don't see any point in discussing this at this point in time.

If you want to have a discussion this off season when we can actually see who is available, I will be much obliged.

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Old
12-17-2011, 07:02 PM
  #966
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Not that i dont think the team needed to go in a different direction, it just makes you wonder what direction Montreal will go with naming Cunneyworth interim for the year.

Is this the organization writing this year off without bringing in a bonafide coach? Or is PG on thin ice and not allowed to bring in a new coach because ownership wont allow it because they have reservations on him.

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Old
12-17-2011, 07:04 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I think it's a load of subjective crock. Guys one likes are passionnate, guys one doesn't are not.

And not being expressive behind the bench doesn't imply someone is not passionnate, or is it a requirement of the job.
When did I say that quiet people are not passionate, or that noisy ones are moreso. I am not advocating for an uncontrolled ape. I am simply saying that you cannot disregard passion as if it is nothing.

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12-17-2011, 07:05 PM
  #968
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And the tradition continues...

Not an unconditional fan of his but there's no other way. He's victim of the lost gamble with Markov, rookie defense and struggling veterans.

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Old
12-17-2011, 07:25 PM
  #969
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F#$%%ing ********* reffing...they call Cole on an interference for an inadvertent bump into Parise but don't call the guy that ran over Paxioretty without the puck!

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12-17-2011, 07:36 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Surprised to say the least. Though he'd have at least this year. Don't think that it will change a lot 'cause you change a guy, but I don't think you change the philosophy that much. I guess we'll see about that.

Oh and congrats Jacques Martin and Marcel Aubut. That firing, thanks to Bob Gainey, just got you 1 million dollars!
To those who say Molson will not spend for this team:

1. I think we're still paying Carbo this year.
2. Not sure, but I think we have to pay JM 1 Mill, plus the rest of this season and next.

Time to can the Molson won't spend talk.

Let's see if he waives Gomer this summer too. He just might, if we can find a good center.

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12-17-2011, 07:44 PM
  #971
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While it may seem that way, read some of my other responses and you'll see that I'm not prepared to go through the growing pains of a new NHL coach to find out if he's going to make it or not. I'm tired of it. Montreal breaks in new rookie coaches only to have other teams benefit (or not) from their experience with the Habs. All I'm saying is I don't want to roll the dice with rookie head coaches anymore. I don't care if he's coached junior hockey, college hockey, midget hockey. Doesn't matter to me. The NHL is a different brand/level especially as a Montreal Canadiens head coach. So, I'll pass.

Edit: Let someone else hire Roy, break him in, find out if he's got what it takes as NHL head coach, then a few years later attempt snatching him up if he's available (or not). Let's do the opposite for a change.
On the Roy question. I will be super pissed if first of all they insist on a french coach, if there are none as good as other available non french candidates. If there is a very good and experienced french coach available, fine, I would prefer that.

And Roy? Give me a break. He'll be a disaster. Let him learn somewhere else.

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12-17-2011, 07:50 PM
  #972
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I think it's a load of subjective crock. Guys one likes are passionnate, guys one doesn't are not.

And not being expressive behind the bench doesn't imply someone is not passionnate, or is it a requirement of the job.
To some degree it certainly is subjective. To some degree it may not be, though perhaps 'passion' would need to have a better definition.

Let's take another angle though.

Now, I have actually been saying the same thing as you, that Roy might be too volatile for a group of NHLers. So, I think, it is safe to say that to some degree you have taken into account the subjective feelings of the players and how that can be affected by a coach. A person with uncontrolled emotions behind the bench could very well be a disaster (whether that is the case with Roy or not). I think a coach has a responsiblility to be under control, moreso than his players. I actually admired that about Martin, and I think he is probably a really great guy. That said, once in a while I think a group of subjective human beings can really benefit from seeing some emotion from their leader.

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