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12-17-2011, 07:27 PM
  #1
sk8haggard9
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...Good on paper?

Over the summer, a great deal of hockey fans felt that the Buffalo Sabres would be one of the better teams in the league. Their crazy pace after Pegula took over last year, mixed with the additions of Regehr, Leino, and Ehrhoff, created a buzz in Buffalo that hasn't been felt in quite some time.

Fast forward to Mid December: The Sabres are a middling team in the East, albeit injury riddled. They look flat out horrible some nights, with a completely disjointed defensive effort, little offense outside of their first line, and a seemingly stale coaching and management team.

What I want to question and discuss, is were we duped? "On paper," in the opinion of many over the summer, the Buffalo Sabres should have been top 10 team in the league. Yes they have been injured, but the rookies have been playing better than some of the regulars. In that sense, there is little excuse, but we still have to realize that we have never seen a remotely healthy squad, outside of the first few weeks, in which they really were one of the better teams in the league.



So, I propose this question: Is a healthy Sabres squad really as good "on paper," as many of us once believed? Or were we simply blinded, riding the high of the new ownership?

If you do believe that this team is a as bad as there record indicates, do you think a coaching/gm change would suffice, do you feel roster moves need to be made, or a combination of both?

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12-17-2011, 07:33 PM
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BuffaloSabskis
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I think they can be a good team 100% healthy, but I still think something needs to change to make them a great team.

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12-17-2011, 07:33 PM
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TheIceShotMe
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Combination of both would be nice. Changing the lines and getting a new coach would be great. But, of course Pegula doesn't care.

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12-17-2011, 07:40 PM
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haseoke39
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I don't buy the injury excuse, because, as you mentioned, the rookies are outplaying too many of the veterans.

But I do think the team is in a funk that it will get out of, at least to an extent, in the new year. There's still a bunch of talent that's not doing anything, and you know the cold start may mean they have poor seasons overall, but I don't see our midline guys staying cold all season long.

I even have a glimmer of hope that this team could be the kind that starts clicking down the stretch and shows its real potential in the playoffs. It's a long season. It could happen.

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12-17-2011, 08:36 PM
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That's some mighty good looking paper you have there.

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12-17-2011, 08:38 PM
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I'm rich on paper...

Just don't ask to borrow any money.

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12-17-2011, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk8haggard9 View Post

So, I propose this question: Is a healthy Sabres squad really as good "on paper," as many of us once believed?
It's not a contender a lot of people were pimping it to be.

They've improved on defense, and that's one part of the team that - when healthy - needs some minor tweaking and should be good.

Miller's been nowhere near the Vezina Miller.

And most importantly, the forward corpse is riddled with the same issues it's had since Briere left - no top end game-deciding talent, no consistency, mainly built out of players lacking at least one of the 3 "departments" (size, speed, skill).

...

Defense needs tweaking.
Forward corpse needs retooling.

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12-17-2011, 08:46 PM
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Layne Staley
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Vanek has outscored Briere since 2007 so people need to stop saying we haven't had an elite offensive player since Briere, Vanek IS an elite offensive player, not Vaneks fault his idiot coach doesn't give him the premier minutes he deserves.

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12-17-2011, 09:00 PM
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Everything is going wrong at the same time, basically.

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Old
12-18-2011, 12:29 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Vanek has outscored Briere since 2007 so people need to stop saying we haven't had an elite offensive player since Briere, Vanek IS an elite offensive player
The problem is, Vanek, or any other Sabre, is NOT clutch. Briere IS.

I don't care how many goals you put up. I care more about WHEN you put them up. Some Sabres are great when they're already running up the score on another team (although it's been awhile since we've seen that) or getting garbage goals when the other team has quit because of a big lead.

The problem with the Sabres is a WEAK CORE. Can you honestly (and with a straight face) say this team, even when fully healthy, looks even remotely as strong as Pittsburgh or Detroit or Boston or Philadelphia or Vancouver or Chicago? You look at those teams and you see incredible strength and skill. You also see GO-TO players in crunchtime.

The Sabres at their best DO NOT resemble those Champions or contenders. They. Just. Don't. Vanek's not even clutch with any degree of dependability.

THE SILVER LINING:
Terry Pegula was humiliated in front of a Pittsburgh crowd. If you don't think THAT will be a potential catalyst, you're not paying attention. His new team is a source of pride for him among certain circles he travels in in Pitt. The team made him look bad. That goes a long way.

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12-18-2011, 12:56 PM
  #11
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With a healthy lineup, we still lose 8-3 to the Pens last night. There's not an excuse in the world for the terrible passing and weak team defense. On top of that, our two-headed goalie tandem (that is supposed to be one of the best and most reliable duos in the league) came out flat as ****. Both of them looked like rookies starting their first NHL game.

On paper, our depth is crazy good. But most of scoring forwards aren't producing to the level that they should be. I'd trade any of them for that one elite scoring center.

I no longer believe that our depth on the wings makes up for the gap at center. These scoring wingers need a proven pivot.

Yes, Lindy is a good coach...but he's worn out his welcome in Buffalo. We need somebody new at the reigns. Somebody who can get the attention of the players and get them to perform. I get the feeling our players are tired of hearing that "same old song and dance" from Ruff. Somebody needs to be brought in that can get the players' attention and inspire them.

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12-18-2011, 04:53 PM
  #12
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I wasn't one of the people who was wowed by their offseason. I've maintained all along that the changes they made wouldn't even guarantee them a playoff spot. They made one move that makes sense by acquiring Robyn Regehr. They needed a center and they blew their money on Leino. They should have signed a journeyman center after they lost out on Richards. A team that has Sekera, Myers, Leopold, and Gragnani doesn't need Ehrhoff. I've never seen a player that's so clueless defensively. He's not even Brian Campbell-lite. It's almost like they signed these guys to show they could do it with no consideration to how they fit. They behaved just like the old NY Rangers who made subtraction by addition into an art form.

I don't know if Pegula will straighten things out. It appears it was his input that led to the signings of Leino and Ehrhoff. How Pegula could be impressed with Ehrhoff from watching him in the playoffs with Vancouver is beyond me. Pegula need to hire a GM that won't listen to him.

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12-18-2011, 06:04 PM
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Squantosawuss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed View Post
Pegula need to hire a GM that won't listen to him.
THIS is by far one the best quotes I've seen on here in a long time.

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Old
12-19-2011, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed View Post
I wasn't one of the people who was wowed by their offseason. I've maintained all along that the changes they made wouldn't even guarantee them a playoff spot. They made one move that makes sense by acquiring Robyn Regehr. They needed a center and they blew their money on Leino. They should have signed a journeyman center after they lost out on Richards. A team that has Sekera, Myers, Leopold, and Gragnani doesn't need Ehrhoff. I've never seen a player that's so clueless defensively. He's not even Brian Campbell-lite. It's almost like they signed these guys to show they could do it with no consideration to how they fit. They behaved just like the old NY Rangers who made subtraction by addition into an art form.

I don't know if Pegula will straighten things out. It appears it was his input that led to the signings of Leino and Ehrhoff. How Pegula could be impressed with Ehrhoff from watching him in the playoffs with Vancouver is beyond me. Pegula need to hire a GM that won't listen to him.
Compared to what I am used to all these years, the offseason was very impressive to me. I can't remember the last time the Sabres acquired 3 "big name" players in one offseason. And yes, compared to what the Sabres acquired in the past... All 3 are big name players. Elite? No. Top 5 talent? No.

As far as Ehrhoff, I am of the opinion that Mike Wilson and even Gragnani are 2 players worse (clueless) defensively. Is he rock solid? Nooooo. But I don't think he's clueless. Just my O.

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12-19-2011, 07:14 AM
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HiddenInLight
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I think out of the three signings, the mistake was Leino. He fleeced the sabres into a contract by claiming he could play center....Ehrhoff is a good pickup. MAG should be 7th man or in rochester. He doesn't belong in a top role like Ruff seems to think. I think Regier saw that and tried to fix that issue by aquireing Ehrhoff. Ruff loves Grags and there isn't too much Regier can do short of firing ruff at this point on that front though ruff seems to be getting the point thank god.

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12-19-2011, 08:44 AM
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jlr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
I think out of the three signings, the mistake was Leino. He fleeced the sabres into a contract by claiming he could play center....Ehrhoff is a good pickup. MAG should be 7th man or in rochester. He doesn't belong in a top role like Ruff seems to think. I think Regier saw that and tried to fix that issue by aquireing Ehrhoff. Ruff loves Grags and there isn't too much Regier can do short of firing ruff at this point on that front though ruff seems to be getting the point thank god.
I don't think Leino fleeced anyone - I think the Sabres made a move that they knew (or should have known) had a very high risk of not working out. Leino had absolutely no track record of being able to do what they signed him for. Paying him what they did, based on so little, was risky - and doesn't look like it's going to pay off.

That responsibility for that falls squarely on Darcy's shoulders - regardless of what Leino, Pegula, or anyone else was telling him.

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12-19-2011, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jlr View Post
I don't think Leino fleeced anyone - I think the Sabres made a move that they knew (or should have known) had a very high risk of not working out. Leino had absolutely no track record of being able to do what they signed him for. Paying him what they did, based on so little, was risky - and doesn't look like it's going to pay off.

That responsibility for that falls squarely on Darcy's shoulders - regardless of what Leino, Pegula, or anyone else was telling him.
I'm not saying that it wasn't Darcy's fault for buying that, was just saying that Leino tricked him into giving him that contract. It is a bad contract, but hell if I were Leino and I could get that kind of money to be on the third line Id sign on the dotted line. I fully agree with you...maybe I just worded it wrong.

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12-19-2011, 09:26 AM
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Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
I'm not saying that it wasn't Darcy's fault for buying that, was just saying that Leino tricked him into giving him that contract. It is a bad contract, but hell if I were Leino and I could get that kind of money to be on the third line Id sign on the dotted line. I fully agree with you...maybe I just worded it wrong.
sounds like heresay... or some crazy theory....

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12-19-2011, 09:59 AM
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Leino didn't trick anyone into that kind of money. You don't sign a player based on his word. They obviously researched his history at the position and were confident he could return there. He couldn't.

Either way, people *****ing that we overpaid for Leino - he was going to get that money regardless of where he signed. Fact of the matter is, he was a coveted forward in free agency. We got him, and it hasn't been great. He was much, much better the four weeks or so leading up to his injury and looked like a player to be excited about.

Ehrhoff hasn't worked out perfectly yet, but he's logging a ton of ice and has been a good soldier. Spacek SUCKED his first year here and turned into a dependable defenseman for the two seasons that followed.

Regehr is a rock.

This was a "3 year plan" from the start. I'm confident that after the season (I assume we'll be a bubble team or out of the playoffs entirely) Pegula will make the necessary personnel changes.

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12-19-2011, 10:01 AM
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HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
sounds like heresay... or some crazy theory....
Too bad it is well documented that Leino came to buffalo to play center and said he was able to play the position at a high level. He himself said it. Not I heard that he heard that my friends brothers couson heard that he said this. Which is honestly all your Roy talks can be based around.


Please look up Begging the Question. Its a logical fallacy that 99% of your posts define.

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12-19-2011, 10:08 AM
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Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Too bad it is well documented that Leino came to buffalo to play center and said he was able to play the position at a high level. He himself said it. Not I heard that he heard that my friends brothers couson heard that he said this. Which is honestly all your Roy talks can be based around.


Please look up Begging the Question. Its a logical fallacy that 99% of your posts define.
What Leino "said"... doesn't make his actions an attempt to deceive. Since you can't possibly know his inner intentions, then you can't possibly state with any level of certainty that he did in fact "trick" management.

your interpretation is nothing more then a theory... which is fine.... it's no different then the theories I have developed over time in my padded room.

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12-19-2011, 10:11 AM
  #22
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
What Leino "said"... doesn't make his actions an attempt to deceive. Since you can't possibly know his inner intentions, then you can't possibly state with any level of certainty that he did in fact "trick" management.

your interpretation is nothing more then a theory... which is fine.... it's no different then the theories I have developed over time in my padded room.
If sombody is documented as saying somthing on the record, then it can be used as evidence in an argument, which is why documented quotes are admissible as evidence in court. Hense the reason it is ok to quote a person in order to divine ingtentions, when not taking the quote out of context. You are as fallacious as they get lately. Not even making a real argument.

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Old
12-19-2011, 10:20 AM
  #23
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There is like 6 threads over the past few days questioning the Sabres skill.

Enough is Enough.

We are only a third into the season. Anything can happen there is still 50 games left
Everyone needs to chill the **** out and watch the games

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12-19-2011, 10:23 AM
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Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
If sombody is documented as saying somthing on the record, then it can be used as evidence in an argument, which is why documented quotes are admissible as evidence in court. Hense the reason it is ok to quote a person in order to divine ingtentions, when not taking the quote out of context. You are as fallacious as they get lately. Not even making a real argument.
so you think by presenting these quotes, you could convince a jury that Leino intentionally deceived management?

good luck boss

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Old
12-19-2011, 10:29 AM
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gallagt01
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Again, Leino saying he can play center isn't the reason they signed him to play center. They obviously researched his history at the position and determined it was good enough to take a shot with.

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