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Ron Wilson needs to be fired! 4 years of Failure.

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Old
12-21-2011, 08:22 AM
  #276
MajorityRules
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Well why not? There are still people talking about tanking and any Kessel thread has to drag up the trade that brought him here. Might as well toss this into the garbage threads pile.
Not bad. 6 posts after mine and both the Kessel trade and the tank talk has resurfaced.

Predictable to the very end.

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12-21-2011, 08:24 AM
  #277
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I cut out the rest of your crap since it's pure insanity.

You need a history lesson?:
The leafs should have blown everything up after the lockout. This was apparent afterwards, in the '05-'06 season. Fletcher who destroyed the Leafs after turning them around, his tenure before, took over and didn't do enough to start a rebuild. The Leafs' most recent franchise history (including 90s until now) is to refuse a genuine rebuild.

So, Burke started in what, in '08? A rebuild was two or three years late and Burke stated publicly his refusal to also rebuild (even though, it should have been initiated two or three years before).

You overrate all the players you mentioned and Phaneuf is not #1 dman material.

Burke has a cozy relationship with his coach so instead of approaching the problem professionally, he is blinded by his loyalty to his friend. This franchise is a joke but it makes money even when they're always inept.

Yeah, you can remember me when they fail again.
thought you were running away???

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12-21-2011, 09:34 AM
  #278
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Like the previous poster said..they needed to fill a spot. YOu cant dress Lehner or Elliot with that team..thats just telling the fans you plan to tank the entire season. The amount of draft picks they had last years pointed to a clear rebuild.
You are completely missing the point. Ottawa is rebuilding. Good for them. Best of luck. Who cares.

Rebuild vs ReTool. Version 2011-2012

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12-21-2011, 09:39 AM
  #279
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No, they're not! What is being shown is what you got.
What comments do you have about a 21 year old Gardiner leading the Leafs defence in ice time lately? Or a 22 year old Schenn and a 23 year old Franson getting good minutes.

And Aulie, at 22 getting sporadic time.

Or 3 goalies with about 100 games of NHL experience combined.

How do you feel about age and experience being a factor? Is it irrelevant? What you see is what you get?

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12-21-2011, 09:39 AM
  #280
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It almost makes me glad that Robbers/Bhell bought the team so I can go cheer for someone else now.
You've been promising that for a long time. When are you actually going to leave?

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12-21-2011, 09:49 AM
  #281
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Okay well then we agree on that. What is happening in Toronto is more a Experiment than a rebuild. It is failing because what I keep saying, the style requires perfect execution, brilliant goalie and star level talent. There is no room for error in the Wilson/Burke system, you need the best, you need Team America.
I think the talent is pretty good on the team. Obviously, not in the upper echelon in the league, but talented enough to build upon.

It isn't the players.

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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12-21-2011, 10:28 AM
  #282
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So people praising Ottawa for doing the same thing they continually bash Bourke about isn't a double standard?
What same things have they done?

Toronto has done everything possible to avoid a rebuild, even when it didn't make any sense. Ottawa, on the other hand, has embraced a rebuild.

You can pick and choose a few moves that have been comparable, but the overall plans are completely different.

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12-21-2011, 10:30 AM
  #283
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You are completely missing the point. Ottawa is rebuilding. Good for them. Best of luck. Who cares.

Rebuild vs ReTool. Version 2011-2012
So.... what you're saying is there actually isn't a double standard here?

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12-21-2011, 10:34 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
So.... what you're saying is there actually isn't a double standard here?
Ottawa is being praised for winning games when they're rebuilding and acquiring (also not unloading) vets to do it. Many posters complained about the Leafs winning while rebuilding (Boyd Devereaux anyone?) and picking up fill-in vets like Gerber in the process. Why is it okay for Ottawa, but not Toronto? That's a double standard. The theory for the Leafs criticism is they're not winning the cup, so it's better to get a cup than win some meaningless games. Ottawa was billed as a rebuilding team who wants/needs a high pick, so why are they praised for winning?


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12-21-2011, 10:37 AM
  #285
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Ottawa is being praised for winning games when they're rebuilding and acquiring (also not unloading vets) to do it. Many posters complained about the Leafs winning while rebuilding (Boyd Devereaux anyone?) and picking up fill-in vets like Gerber in the process. Why is it okay for Ottawa, but not Toronto? That's a double standard. The theory for the Leafs criticism is they're not winning the cup, so it's better to get a cup than win some meaningless games. Ottawa was billed as a rebuilding team who wants/needs a high pick, so why are they praised for winning?
That's it.

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12-21-2011, 10:37 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Ottawa is being praised for winning games when they're rebuilding and acquiring (also not unloading vets) to do it. Many posters complained about the Leafs winning while rebuilding (Boyd Devereaux anyone?) and picking up fill-in vets like Gerber in the process. Why is it okay for Ottawa, but not Toronto? That's a double standard. The theory for the Leafs criticism is they're not winning the cup, so it's better to get a cup than win some meaningless games. Ottawa was billed as a rebuilding team who wants/needs a high pick, so why are they praised for winning?
Some one will always have something negative to say.. It's the Leafs.

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12-21-2011, 10:52 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Ottawa is being praised for winning games when they're rebuilding and acquiring (also not unloading vets) to do it. Many posters complained about the Leafs winning while rebuilding (Boyd Devereaux anyone?) and picking up fill-in vets like Gerber in the process. Why is it okay for Ottawa, but not Toronto? That's a double standard. The theory for the Leafs criticism is they're not winning the cup, so it's better to get a cup than win some meaningless games. Ottawa was billed as a rebuilding team who wants/needs a high pick, so why are they praised for winning?
Different situations.

Devo and Gerber were late season additions post trade deadline to a team with the season already lost, and then disposed of shortly after making them short term fixes present season only .

Alfredsson and Gonchar were there long before this recent rebuild began, and Anderson was brought in for veteran stability in net and committed to long term thereafter.

As far as praised for winning goes Ottawa and Toronto both are tied with 36 points on the season at present. What were the expectations of each team before the season?. Many had Leafs competing for a playoff spot icing a top 5 league salary cap ceiling team, while Ottawa was expected to be a lottery team near the league bottom, while icing a bottom 5 salary floor team.

Since the teams are tied in points does that mean Ottawa is playing well deserving praise while exceeding expectations, or Leafs are struggling as they were expected to be much better than Sens this year? Which of the two teams is playing better as per preseason expectations?.


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12-21-2011, 11:01 AM
  #288
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Different situations.

Devo and Gerber were late season additions post trade deadline to a team with the season already lost, and then disposed of shortly after making them short term fixes present season only .

Alfredsson and Gonchar were there long before this recent rebuild began, and Anderson was brought in for veteran stability in net and committed to long term thereafter.

As far as praised for winning goes Ottawa and Toronto both are tied with 36 points on the season at present. What were the expectations of each team before the season?. Many had Leafs competing for a playoff spot icing a top 5 league salary cap ceiling team, while Ottawa was expected to be a lottery team near the league bottom, while icing a bottom 5 salary floor team.

Since the teams are tied in points does that mean Ottawa is playing well deserving praise while exceeding expectations, or Leafs are struggling as they were expected to be much better than Sens this year? Which of the two teams is playing better as per preseason expectations?.
The more veteran team.

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12-21-2011, 11:05 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Different situations.
Really? You mean Ottawa fans think they're winning the cup and don't want to rebuild?

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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Devo and Gerber were late season additions post trade deadline to a team with the season already lost, and then disposed of shortly after making them short term fixes present season only .

Alfredsson and Gonchar were there long before this recent rebuild began, and Anderson was brought in for veteran stability in net and committed to long term thereafter.
I wouldn't say Alfie, Gonchar and Anderson are long-term solutions in Ottawa. Especially when the Sens have Lehner in the pipeline pegged as their goaltender of the future. Remember the praise Fletcher received for moving out players like McCabe and the heat he took for keeping Kubina? I certainly do.

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As far as praised for winning goes Ottawa and Toronto both are tied with 36 points on the season at present. What were the expectations of each team before the season?. Many had Leafs competing for a playoff spot while Ottawa was expected to be a lottery team near the league bottom

Since the teams are tied in points does that mean Ottawa is playing well deserving praise while exceeding expectations, or Leafs are struggling as they were expected to be much better than Sens this year? Which of the two teams is playing better as per preseason expectations?.
Personally I'd praise Ottawa, they're playing above anyones expectations. I also thought the Leafs played well with Gerber thand better than expected that whole year so it's consistent. The problem is people who *****ed about the Leafs winning while rebuilding praising the Sens now. This is exactly where the Leafs were supposed to be, the Sens are doing much better than expected. If I was a Sens fan I'd be happy with that, but we know many Leafs fans view that as a negative. You are a very good example of that, if you feel this is good for the Sens then you're contradicting a stance you've taken many times and using a double standard.

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Old
12-21-2011, 11:07 AM
  #290
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Never liked Wilson as a coach, he has new assistants and different players to work with and we still have the worst PK. the common denominator is Ron Wilson. Plenty of good coaches have been fired for much less.

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Old
12-21-2011, 11:16 AM
  #291
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Personally I'd praise Ottawa, they're playing above anyones expectations. I also thought the Leafs played well with Gerber thand better than expected that whole year so it's consistent. The problem is people who *****ed about the Leafs winning while rebuilding praising the Sens now. This is exactly where the Leafs were supposed to be,
Sens praise is due to their performance on the ice.

Last season Sens 74 points Leafs 85 points final standings.

This year Sens ($52.4 team salary) have 36 points in 34 games = 87 point pace (+13 points). Leafs ($64.4 mil team salary) 36 points in 33 games = 89 point pace (+4).

The teams are tied with points, age is not as important as $$ spent on salary in a cap world with a +$12 mil advantage Leafs and Ottawa is on pace for a +13 point improvement while Leafs are on pace for +4.

Some of Sens vet players salaries are required to keep the Sens above the lower limits cap floor ceiling. Remove any one of Alfredsson, Gonchar or Anderson and replace them with an AHLer earning less than $1 mil and they would fall below the Salary floor minimum requirement. So even if one does not like them on a rebuilding team for their ages, their salaries are required to remain in compliance with the CBA.

There is only one team in comparison here that is exceeding expectations and worthy of praise during their rebuilding and that is the one doing more with less.


Last edited by Mess: 12-21-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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12-21-2011, 11:23 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Sens praise is due to their performance on the ice.

Last season Sens 74 points Leafs 85 points final standings.

This year Sens ($52.4 team salary) have 36 points in 34 games = 87 point pace (+13 points). Leafs ($64.4 mil team salary) 36 points in 33 games = 89 point pace (+4).

The teams are tied with points, age is not as important as $$ spent on salary in a cap world with a +$12 mil advantage Leafs and Ottawa is on pace for a +13 point improvement while Leafs are on pace for +4. Some of Sens vet players salaries are required to keep the Sens above the lower limits cap floor ceiling.

There is only one team in comparison here that is exceeding expectations and worthy of praise during their rebuilding and that is the one doing more with less.
Brian Elliot vs Craig Anderson

The Senators trade Brian Elliot for pending UFA Craig Anderson. Was that a good move Mess?

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12-21-2011, 11:23 AM
  #293
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If you think the Sens effort should be praised and ciriticized the Leafs then it's a double standard. Really nothing more to it than that. If you were consistent in logic it's not.

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12-21-2011, 11:34 AM
  #294
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Hey Mess, do approve of moving out 2009 1st round pick David Rundblad for Kyle Turris?

Do you approve of keeping Spezza, Gonchar, Alfredson, Mihalek?

Senators in order of TOI, and age:

Karlson, 21
Phillips, 33
Spezza, 28
Cowan, 20
Gonchar, 37
Mihalek, 27
Greening, 25
Kuba, 34
Foligno, 24
Smith, 23
Alfredson, 39
Condra, 25
Daugivins, 23
Neil, 32
Winchester, 28
Lee, 24
DaCosta, 22
Butler, 24
Zenopka, 30
Regin, 25
Zibinajad, 18

Are they a young team?


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12-21-2011, 12:14 PM
  #295
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Sens praise is due to their performance on the ice.

Last season Sens 74 points Leafs 85 points final standings.

This year Sens ($52.4 team salary) have 36 points in 34 games = 87 point pace (+13 points). Leafs ($64.4 mil team salary) 36 points in 33 games = 89 point pace (+4).

The teams are tied with points, age is not as important as $$ spent on salary in a cap world with a +$12 mil advantage Leafs and Ottawa is on pace for a +13 point improvement while Leafs are on pace for +4.

Some of Sens vet players salaries are required to keep the Sens above the lower limits cap floor ceiling. Remove any one of Alfredsson, Gonchar or Anderson and replace them with an AHLer earning less than $1 mil and they would fall below the Salary floor minimum requirement. So even if one does not like them on a rebuilding team for their ages, their salaries are required to remain in compliance with the CBA.

There is only one team in comparison here that is exceeding expectations and worthy of praise during their rebuilding and that is the one doing more with less.
In the east Sens and Panthers are exceeding expectation.
Are these examples of smart coaching strategy or simply overacheiving players.

It is fair to say that Wilson has never gotten this type of performance from the leafs during his tenure except for the last half of last year. No one will know about sens/panthers till end of year.

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12-21-2011, 12:37 PM
  #296
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I wouldn't say Alfie, Gonchar and Anderson are long-term solutions in Ottawa. Especially when the Sens have Lehner in the pipeline pegged as their goaltender of the future. Remember the praise Fletcher received for moving out players like McCabe and the heat he took for keeping Kubina? I certainly do.
Who said those guys were long-term solutios? Alfie and Conchar certainly are not. Anderson was brought in to be one, but it looks like he won't be.


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The problem is people who *****ed about the Leafs winning while rebuilding praising the Sens now. This is exactly where the Leafs were supposed to be, the Sens are doing much better than expected. If I was a Sens fan I'd be happy with that, but we know many Leafs fans view that as a negative. You are a very good example of that, if you feel this is good for the Sens then you're contradicting a stance you've taken many times and using a double standard.
I don't think people were mad that the Leafs were winning, but they were mad at what management was doing in an attempt to win.

The Gerber move was not the same as Anderson. Anderson was brought in to be their goalie now and in the future. Gerber was brought in even though he was never going to be a long-term option. Gerber was there to make an impossible run at the play-offs.... and make a probable run out of the lotery picks.

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12-21-2011, 12:40 PM
  #297
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I don't think people were mad that the Leafs were winning, but they were mad at what management was doing in an attempt to win.
You should look back at those tank threads, people were upset after wins.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The Gerber move was not the same as Anderson. Anderson was brought in to be their goalie now and in the future. Gerber was brought in even though he was never going to be a long-term option. Gerber was there to make an impossible run at the play-offs.... and make a probable run out of the lotery picks.
Anderson was brought in to play ahead of a young goalie like Lehner, who is their "goalie of the future".

Gerber was not brought in for a run at the playoffs at all, he was brought in because we had no goalie capable of playing at the NHL level. Burke was trading key pieces off the team and filling them with guys who couldn't crack and NHL roster because the NHL ready youth was already in the line-up.

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12-21-2011, 12:56 PM
  #298
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Different situations.

Devo and Gerber were late season additions post trade deadline to a team with the season already lost, and then disposed of shortly after making them short term fixes present season only .

Alfredsson and Gonchar were there long before this recent rebuild began, and Anderson was brought in for veteran stability in net and committed to long term thereafter.

As far as praised for winning goes Ottawa and Toronto both are tied with 36 points on the season at present. What were the expectations of each team before the season?. Many had Leafs competing for a playoff spot icing a top 5 league salary cap ceiling team, while Ottawa was expected to be a lottery team near the league bottom, while icing a bottom 5 salary floor team.

Since the teams are tied in points does that mean Ottawa is playing well deserving praise while exceeding expectations, or Leafs are struggling as they were expected to be much better than Sens this year? Which of the two teams is playing better as per preseason expectations?.
it's ironic a person like you, who is typically obsessed with age, is now turning to salary to bash the leafs

i can't believe we are comparing ourselves to the sens

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12-21-2011, 01:05 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The Gerber move was not the same as Anderson. Anderson was brought in to be their goalie now and in the future. Gerber was brought in even though he was never going to be a long-term option. Gerber was there to make an impossible run at the play-offs.... and make a probable run out of the lotery picks.
Why didn't Ottawa play out the season with Elliot and bring in Anderson after the season?

11-5-1 with a 2.05 GAA, .939 Save %

Gerber:

6-5-0, 3.23 GAA, .905 Save %

NHL Games played since his run with the Leafs, 3

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12-21-2011, 01:07 PM
  #300
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In the east Sens and Panthers are exceeding expectation.
Are these examples of smart coaching strategy or simply overacheiving players.

It is fair to say that Wilson has never gotten this type of performance from the leafs during his tenure except for the last half of last year. No one will know about sens/panthers till end of year.
Wilson had a much worse team then the current Sens in 2008-2009, and they also overachieved.

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