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Old
12-20-2011, 11:52 AM
  #126
Habs 4 Life
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
The has to go list:
Cammy
Darche
Desharnais
Diaz

Gill
Gomez
Gionta
Weber
Why? Diaz isn't that bad and has been here 30 games and getting use to the style of play and has potential which can be worked on and DD has been one of our best players all year and on a really cheap contract. The others I wouldn't have a problem moving but Darche isn't getting us anything but future considerations and no one wants Gomez. Add Travis Moen to that list which teams always seem to want at the deadline and Chris Campoli who isn't coming back next year. Kostitsyn also is a candidate if the Habs don't want to bring him back, then trade him

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Old
12-20-2011, 11:54 AM
  #127
Agnostic
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Exactly. The Souray move was bad enough but to let Koivu and company leave for nothing is inexusable.

A rebuild as in what Edmonton was doing really woul'dve made sense when we dealt away Roy. We should've taken the awful tasting medicine back then. We'd have been much better off for it.

Right now though? We couldn't do an Edmonton rebuild if we tried. Not if we kept Max, PK and Price. We're too good to finish last perpetutually. It's not going to happen.


We're much further ahead than a lot of rebuild clubs that are starting from ground zero. We actually do have young players to build with. But we need elite prospects for the future.

I don't think Zach Parise is what we need either. He's another Mike Cammaleri. Talented small forward who can put the puck in the net but I'd rather we concentrate on younger players that we can build around for the future. Parise seems like another quick fix to me and we'd have to overpay him. I'm sick of doing that. Overpaying players who aren't worth the money isn't the way we're going to win anything.

Timmins head up what is pretty much the best thing about our organization. Our scouting is great and we shouldn't do anything to change it except maybe give them more high picks.

Even if that were true, we'd still be competing for a low playoff spot with no real shot at a cup. Gomez (even at his best) isn't that kind of difference maker. The Devs won because of Niedermayer, Stevens and Brodeur... not Scott Gomez.


The real question is: Why was Ryan McDonnaugh traded?

And that's why we are where we are.

There used to be rebuilds in Montreal when Pollock ran the show btw. Even when we were winning he traded for as many picks as he could and he built a dynasty around them. Too bad we don't understand this.
If ANY team can rebuild it's us. We have the fans, the corporate sponsorship and (now at least) a strong Canadian dollar behind us. We aren't a small market team. We've got TV contracts and are a huge cash generator.

We haven't been a good team for almost 20 years and the fans are still coming.

In 1994, if you'd asked whether or not the fans would stand for perpetual 8th or 9th place finishes, you'd get a resounding no. Low and behold though we missed the playoffs for years and have been a bubble team for the better part of this decade and the message boards are as packed as the stands. Go figure.

The fans would 'stand' for it. And if they started to see us produce players like Ryan Nugent Hopkins... they'd LOVE IT.

It really boils down to ownership. Is there the WILL to do this? And even if there is, they may be of the same mind of many people in this forum that we're not that far away from being a contender. I strongly disagree with that assessment but the Molsons may believe it. And if that's the case, then we won't see a rebuild at all.

I agree. At least if you know there's a purpose towards dealing away vets for younger players you know it's for long term gain. The fans would be much more forgiving if that's the case.

What the fans won't want to see though is us spending all this cash on free agents, giving away prospects and STILL just missing the playoffs. That's the worst thing you can do and it looks like we just might do it this year.

You know, I never really thought about it but I think you're right. I don't ever remember us being a 'seller' either.

I really like Staal but isn't he making over 8 mil for 5 more years? I don't think it makes sense at that price.
Thanks for bringing this up. Back in 2001 I posted my own 30 year study of drafting in the NHL. No surprise, even while having the most Stanley Cups during the 30 year period Montreal had also had the most draft selections of any other team. In other words Montreal was successful on the ice by keeping their own draft picks and even acquiring more.

This is why there is vomit in my mouth when Gauthier spends 3 2nd round draft picks in one year, or when the team spends important picks on players like Lang and Tanguay.

For these reasons I have long said that the Gauthier/Gainey approach is unsustainable and would result in the bottom falling out from under the team. The day appears to be here or at least approaching.

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Old
12-20-2011, 11:56 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

I really like Staal but isn't he making over 8 mil for 5 more years? I don't think it makes sense at that price.
LG You know I agree with rebuild on the fly. And yes I don't like the expensive UFA pickups just to make 8th. But:

1. I do believe we already have a good young core.
2. I do believe at least 2 of our good young prospects, winners, will join us in the next 2-3 years. Beulieu and Gallagher come to mind.
3. I do believe we have and can pick up the support pieces: White etc.
4. Gill, Gomer and Cammy, and possibly AK are not part of this plan, dump somehow for picks, and the money for Staal. Just do it.
4. In which case, move now, and get a true star center, not Gomez. Redemption time. I think it would be a bold move, and change the team more than you think.
5. Yes, Marky just may come back to form, god knows we've earned it, and if he does, he only has 3 years also. Can you imagine a PP with Marky in form, and E Staal on it, in form? JEEZUS!

As I said, oddly, amid all of this gloom, if we do this, I think we do have a 3 year cup window starting next year. Let's act on it, and if we fail, than let's start a real rebuild starting in 2015.

Our last true rebuild window closed when we let Souray, Koivu and all go. Now we have too many good young players to tank. Therefore, let's find the one or two great, and I mean great, pieces with bold moves, and try, right now.

I'm not usually one for suggesting these moves, but with Staal and Crapolina going now nowhere, and obviously tanking, and us with vets with some value, (just not cup value), and extra prospects like Kristo, Diaz etc. with value, this deal might just make sense for both clubs, right now. It's a perfect storm of circumstance.


Last edited by bsl: 12-20-2011 at 12:03 PM.
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Old
12-20-2011, 12:03 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
LG You know I agree with rebuild on the fly. And yes I don't like the expensive UFA pickups just to make 8th. But:

1. I do believe we already have a good young core.
2. I do believe at least 2 of our good young prospects, winners, will join us in the next 2-3 years. Beulieu and Gallagher come to mind.
3. I do believe we have and can pick up the support pieces: White etc.
4. Gill, Gomer and Cammy, and possibly AK are not part of this plan, dump somehow for picks, and the money for Staal. Just do it.
4. In which case, move now, and get a true star center, not Gomez. Redemption time. I think it would be a bold move, and change the team more than you think.
5. Yes, Marky just may come back to form, god knows we've earned it, and if he does, he only has 3 years also. Can you imagine a PP with Marky in form, and E Staal on it, in form? JEEZUS!

As I said, oddly, amid all of this gloom, if we do this, I think we do have a 3 year cup window starting next year. Let's act on it, and if we fail, than let's start a real rebuild starting in 2015.

Our last true rebuild window closed when we let Souray, Koivu and all go. Now we have too many good young players to tank. Therefore, let's find the one or two great, and I mean great, pieces with bold moves, and try, right now.

I'm not usually one for suggesting these moves, but with Staal and Crapolina going now nowhere, and obviously tanking, and us with vets with some value, (just not cup value), and extra prospects like Kristo with value, this deal might just make sense for both clubs, right now. It's a perfect storm of circumstance.
Are you fine with giving up Gallagher, Beaulieu and a young roster player with some draft picks? I think that's what is going to be asked to get Staal. Not sure I would actually do it

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:11 PM
  #130
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yessss ! we need dat der Mikhail Grigorenko

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:13 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Are you fine with giving up Gallagher, Beaulieu and a young roster player with some draft picks? I think that's what is going to be asked to get Staal. Not sure I would actually do it
No, I am not, because Gallagher and Beaulieu are part of our cup window, as I have said.

I agree with you. No go. That would be robbery, and stupid.

Would Crapolina take Kristo, Diaz or Weber, Cammy to reach cap floor, and Josh Gorges? All of whom can be matched now or soon by other prospects we already have? I bet they might. Except Cammy, all cheap and young, just not needed by us for our 3 year window right now. And Cammy provides some excitement right now to keep the Crapolina fans happy. Sounds pretty good for a rebuilding team to me.

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:16 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
LG You know I agree with rebuild on the fly. And yes I don't like the expensive UFA pickups just to make 8th. But:

1. I do believe we already have a good young core.
2. I do believe at least 2 of our good young prospects, winners, will join us in the next 2-3 years. Beulieu and Gallagher come to mind.
3. I do believe we have and can pick up the support pieces: White etc.
4. Gill, Gomer and Cammy, and possibly AK are not part of this plan, dump somehow for picks, and the money for Staal. Just do it.
4. In which case, move now, and get a true star center, not Gomez. Redemption time. I think it would be a bold move, and change the team more than you think.
5. Yes, Marky just may come back to form, god knows we've earned it, and if he does, he only has 3 years also. Can you imagine a PP with Marky in form, and E Staal on it, in form? JEEZUS!

As I said, oddly, amid all of this gloom, if we do this, I think we do have a 3 year cup window starting next year. Let's act on it, and if we fail, than let's start a real rebuild starting in 2015.

Our last true rebuild window closed when we let Souray, Koivu and all go. Now we have too many good young players to tank. Therefore, let's find the one or two great, and I mean great, pieces with bold moves, and try, right now.

I'm not usually one for suggesting these moves, but with Staal and Crapolina going now nowhere, and obviously tanking, and us with vets with some value, (just not cup value), and extra prospects like Kristo, Diaz etc. with value, this deal might just make sense for both clubs, right now. It's a perfect storm of circumstance.
I get where you're coming from and it might even work but...

I think we should go the other route for the following reasons.

1. Staal is overpaid by a lot. I love him as a player (though I haven't seen him this year and he seems to be struggling) and I get why you'd want him. But he's in his late 20s. If we're going to land him we'd want to win right away and I don't think we'd be able to do that even with him. Our D is still a big mess.

2. As expensive as he is, the Canes wouldn't give him away for free. He's the face of their franchise and their fans (what little they have now) would all bolt if they just gave him away. And who do we give up for him? Our younger players? Draft picks? I don't think that makes sense.

3. If we draft players and trade for prospects, then we can develop them our selves and we get to enjoy productive seasons from them at cheap rates. That's what happened with Chicago for example. They had two great young players in Toews and Kane. They paid them almost nothing and then they used the excess cash to spend on vets. When you get good production at a lower cost it helps you to maximize your assets. And that's why overpaying players isn't a great idea. It's okay if you ALREADY have a winning core and it's the final piece of the puzzle but we're not there right now.

4. Subban and Max are still developing. They'll be at their peak in another 4 or 5 years. I think those are the guys we should invest in and build around. Price and Subban is pretty good. If Max can pan out, it's a really nice start. I think if we start now, we could have a great team in a few years but I don't think that quick fixes are the answer. We've got a terrific scouting group and I think we just need to be patient and give them something to work with.

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:22 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Are you fine with giving up Gallagher, Beaulieu and a young roster player with some draft picks? I think that's what is going to be asked to get Staal. Not sure I would actually do it
No I would not go for that, as they are part of the cup window I think. Bad move, and too much.

I think Crapolina might well go for Kristo, Weber/Diaz, Cammy to keep the Fans excited and reach the floor, and Josh Gorges.

All of whom can be replaced by prospects we have already, or in the next 2 years. And all of whom are very good choices for a rebuilding team looking at a 5 year plan. We don't have 5 years of Price, Subby, Max and Markov. We have 3 years. We need to act now.

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12-20-2011, 12:26 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I get where you're coming from and it might even work but...

I think we should go the other route for the following reasons.

1. Staal is overpaid by a lot. I love him as a player (though I haven't seen him this year and he seems to be struggling) and I get why you'd want him. But he's in his late 20s. If we're going to land him we'd want to win right away and I don't think we'd be able to do that even with him. Our D is still a big mess.

2. As expensive as he is, the Canes wouldn't give him away for free. He's the face of their franchise and their fans (what little they have now) would all bolt if they just gave him away. And who do we give up for him? Our younger players? Draft picks? I don't think that makes sense.

3. If we draft players and trade for prospects, then we can develop them our selves and we get to enjoy productive seasons from them at cheap rates. That's what happened with Chicago for example. They had two great young players in Toews and Kane. They paid them almost nothing and then they used the excess cash to spend on vets. When you get good production at a lower cost it helps you to maximize your assets. And that's why overpaying players isn't a great idea. It's okay if you ALREADY have a winning core and it's the final piece of the puzzle but we're not there right now.

4. Subban and Max are still developing. They'll be at their peak in another 4 or 5 years. I think those are the guys we should invest in and build around. Price and Subban is pretty good. If Max can pan out, it's a really nice start. I think if we start now, we could have a great team in a few years but I don't think that quick fixes are the answer. We've got a terrific scouting group and I think we just need to be patient and give them something to work with.
LG I'm off to bed, will read more carefully tomorrow. I'll only say if you think we have 5 years of Max, Price and Subby, think again. They'll be gone as UFA. Our window is now, 3 years, not 5.

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:27 PM
  #135
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To all those saying to draft Mikhail Grigorenko...how many have seen him play?

Personally I haven't

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12-20-2011, 12:37 PM
  #136
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When we were doing well enough to be confident of making the playoffs at the very least I didn't want a rebuild. But if we're going to lose anyways might as well have a year focused on restocking the minors and perhaps get a high pick in the process.

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12-20-2011, 12:40 PM
  #137
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No, I am not, because Gallagher and Beaulieu are part of our cup window, as I have said.

I agree with you. No go. That would be robbery, and stupid.

Would Crapolina take Kristo, Diaz or Weber, Cammy to reach cap floor, and Josh Gorges? All of whom can be matched now or soon by other prospects we already have? I bet they might. Except Cammy, all cheap and young, just not needed by us for our 3 year window right now. And Cammy provides some excitement right now to keep the Crapolina fans happy. Sounds pretty good for a rebuilding team to me.

The question you should be asking is, if Eric Staal is available, is another team really not making a better offer?

That's the problem with the 'lets get a true star center' argument. Other teams want one as well and it's unlikely you're going to get one by giving up players that 'can be easily matched now or soon by other prospects we already have'.

It's not impossible because Carolina's GM seems quite incompetent, but realistically Staal being available = lots of interest = whoever gets him overpays compares to what you might think is realistic value.

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Old
12-20-2011, 12:49 PM
  #138
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the problem is we dont have anyone in the farm team that can help us right away, nor do we have any players we're willing to part with that have enough value to get us young players that will help right away....

this teams has really been handicapped by stupid moves that will take atleast 3 more years to wash away.

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12-20-2011, 04:16 PM
  #139
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To all those saying to draft Mikhail Grigorenko...how many have seen him play?

Personally I haven't
Very talented but there are some flags on him. Some have compared him to Filatov and Zherdev.

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12-20-2011, 04:18 PM
  #140
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Very talented but there are some flags on him. Some have compared him to Filatov and Zherdev.
Imagine the ****storm if we got bad enough to the point where we were in a position to take Grigorenko and ended up with another Andrei Kostitsyn.

Nothing against Kostitsyn either.

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12-20-2011, 04:18 PM
  #141
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the problem is we dont have anyone in the farm team that can help us right away, nor do we have any players we're willing to part with that have enough value to get us young players that will help right away....

this teams has really been handicapped by stupid moves that will take atleast 3 more years to wash away.
What stupid moves will take 3 years to erase?

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12-20-2011, 04:19 PM
  #142
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What stupid moves will take 3 years to erase?
Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri? (not saying they're stupid, just guessing that's what he means).

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12-20-2011, 04:20 PM
  #143
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Imagine the ****storm if we got bad enough to the point where we were in a position to take Grigorenko and ended up with another Andrei Kostitsyn.

Nothing against Kostitsyn either.
Even worse...a Filatov or Zherdev.

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12-20-2011, 04:21 PM
  #144
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Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri? (not saying they're stupid, just guessing that's what he means).
Gomez I agree, the other two have been more than fine. Gomez will be gone this summer if we need the cap room so there is no "handicaping" there.

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12-20-2011, 04:36 PM
  #145
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Rebuild ? NO

Fine tuning ? YES


This team is spineless and lacks leadership and grit. Looks like a big task for Gauthier to solve... .

I am worried that our young guns - Maxpac, PK, Price, DD, Eller, Leblanc, Emelin, White and Diaz, are having bad examples under their nose, and it' certainly not the proper environment to develop. Besides Gorges, Cole and Plekky, the rest of our veterans are a bunch of underachivers or over-the-hill players.

Basically Gauthier - or whoever is gonna be there next Summer, must mopped up the mess that Gainey created 3 years ago.

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12-20-2011, 04:41 PM
  #146
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If the habs can manage to go on a 2-3 weeks winning streak it would shut the bad mouth for a while. I'm talking about all the media crapping on the team. I'd like to see Peladeau and his anti-canadiens de montréal publicity fail miserably.

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12-20-2011, 04:49 PM
  #147
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If the habs can manage to go on a 2-3 weeks winning streak it would shut the bad mouth for a while. I'm talking about all the media crapping on the team. I'd like to see Peladeau and his anti-canadiens de montréal publicity fail miserably.
It's a win-win situation for him.... $$$$ He's gonna sell tons of papers and have. The ratings at TVA Sports will raise and Videotron will still be carrying RDS channel and the Habs hockey games.

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12-20-2011, 09:19 PM
  #148
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Sell:
Cammy
Gionta
Moen
Gill
Campoli

Demote:
Gomez

Depending if short term or long term rebuild:
Erik Cole
Andrei Markov

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12-20-2011, 09:26 PM
  #149
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Gomez I agree, the other two have been more than fine. Gomez will be gone this summer if we need the cap room so there is no "handicaping" there.
So far this year they all played like ****. Especially Cammalleri, who I used to appreciate.

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12-20-2011, 10:07 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Sell:
Cammy
Gionta
Moen
Gill
Campoli

Demote:
Gomez

Depending if short term or long term rebuild:
Erik Cole
Andrei Markov
I'd keep Cole around. You needs vets around if you want your young guys to devellop well. Pretty hard for guys to progress offensively playing with a scrubs.

Next year you put all the offensive guys in the top six. But I don't want the kind of retool where a bunch of guys not ready for the NHL gets rushed (this is where teams like CBJ and NYI made their mistakes). Leblanc back to the AHL, Gallagher, Bournival etc... = AHL to begin next year even if they look ready, let them dominate a bit.

Fill the bottom 6 with guys who are in demand at the trade deadline ala Moen.
We could look at something like this next year assuming we don't land a Grigorenko or someone we can put in the lineup as soon as next year at the draft.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Cole
Desharnais-Eller-AK
Bottom 6 (ideally solid defensively ala Moen to give the top six guys better matchups, guys who can actually play hockey)

The important thing is to not feel the pressure to put guys who should be in the AHL on the team just because every rebuilding team does it. It's a gamble, worst case we suck and get a top pick. Best case that top 6 does better than this year's top six wich may seem weird but could actually happen. The first four guys are our leading scorers (they also include our 3 leading goalscorers). And I think AK and Eller are somewhere between 0.6-0.8 PPG when playing together. And they can't really do worse than this year's Cammy or last year's Gomez.

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